[BarryJI]

Numbers are no measure of quality. All they ever set out to measure is capability. You are using data to quantify a purely subjective value.

[Y0tsuya]

Originally Posted by BarryJI

Numbers are no measure of quality. All they ever set out to measure is capability. You are using data to quantify a purely subjective value.

There's nothing subjective about a 40% increase in thrust.

[BarryJI]

Originally Posted by Y0tsuya

There's nothing subjective about a 40% increase in thrust.

Of course there is. It depends on how it affects driving dynamics and handling. Your insistence on the absolute primacy of numbers makes you seem as if you have a slide-rule where a brain should go.

[flypenfly]

Subjectively, I do love me BMW inline 6's.

I used to own both a E30 318is with the amazing old M42 engine and a E30 325i. The 325i was a great car but I would much, much rather drive the smaller displacement 318is. It was just a much more tossable, responsive car that was an absolute pleasure to throw around aggressively and made you feel like a driving god.

That seems to be the same case with the modern 2 series. All the people who actually have a lot of track experience and can date their first car to the 80s BMWs seem to say the 4 banger in this case is the car to get.

I think people forget that all this stuff is about how it makes you feel. If you feel like you need a ton of power, why did you buy a BMW, much less a 2 series? That's pretty dumb. The M235i is a fine car but it seems like a bit of a middle child. The cars that are the shiners here seem to be the 228i or the M2.

[Y0tsuya]

Originally Posted by BarryJI

Of course there is. It depends on how it affects driving dynamics and handling. Your insistence on the absolute primacy of numbers makes you seem as if you have a slide-rule where a brain should go.

You seem to insist that the M240i handles like a dog compared to the 330i. But I think the difference is not that much and is greatly overshadowed by the massive difference in power output.

[BarryJI]

Originally Posted by Y0tsuya

You seem to insist that the M240i handles like a dog compared to the 330i. But I think the difference is not that much and is greatly overshadowed by the massive difference in power output.

Where did I ever write that? I like the M240i. I've driven the M2 and I like that, too. I am simply stating that numbers alone are not the only measurement of quality when it come to driving experience and that "bigger" does not automatically mean "better".

[Y0tsuya]

Originally Posted by flypenfly

I think people forget that all this stuff is about how it makes you feel. If you feel like you need a ton of power, why did you buy a BMW, much less a 2 series? That's pretty dumb.

I feel that power and tossability are not mutually exclusive. Maybe I don't have the track experience other profess to have here, but I DD's a E46 for 15 years have have tossed it around the backroads occasionally. My M235i is no less tossable than my old car, and like my old car, revs smoothly and sings to me while I drive.

[Y0tsuya]

Originally Posted by BarryJI

Where did I ever write that? I like the M240i. I've driven the M2 and I like that, too. I am simply stating that numbers alone are not the only measurement of quality when it come to driving experience and that "bigger" does not automatically mean "better".

Yes you're pushing that angle pretty hard. Quality can be measured via numbers. BMW wouldn't go through all that trouble trying to achieve a 50/50 balance if it's just a bunch of number on paper. Their engineers burn midnight oil moving things around on the design to reach that number. I've already said loooong ago that people feel different things about different cars and am OK with that, but you seem to have missed it. My assertion is that when you consider all metrics that can be measured, the M240i comes out on top of 330i.

[BarryJI]

Quality cannot be measured in numbers. As others here have attempted to point out to you, this is a self-evidently foolish statement when applied to any area of activity, such as driving, where unquantifiable values like judgement and experience play as important a role in assessing quality. You are insisting on the absolute primacy of an engineer's or statistician's mindset when applied to a product whose value is determined through individual judgement and discrimination and not merely "metrics". Bigger does not mean better.

[stevenvillatoro]

Originally Posted by Y0tsuya

[There's nothing subjective about a 40% increase in thrust.

However the **importance** of thrust is fully subjective to different buyers.

[aozer]

Originally Posted by flypenfly

The cars that are the shiners here seem to be the 228i or the M2.

lol

[Y0tsuya]

Originally Posted by stevenvillatoro

However the **importance** of thrust is fully subjective to different buyers.

Well you can come up with a different weighting of those numbers then. Maybe some people don't need all that thrust, but their needs and perceived importance should have no bearing on the merits of the car itself. For example, if I'm shopping for a minivan and only need to seat 5, I don't need a higher-trim with 3rd row fold-down seat. But for a minivan, I will concede that the higher trim is a better minivan, even though I have no need for it. Similarly, when shopping for a CPU, I would probably do alright browsing the web with a i5-8250U and don't need a i7-8700K CPU. It has "more" of everything. Sure it's more expensive and power-hungry, but I don't think anyone in their right mind would argue that the i7-8700K isn't a "better" CPU, even if all they do is browse the web with it.

[Y0tsuya]

Originally Posted by BarryJI

Quality cannot be measured in numbers. As others here have attempted to point out to you, this is a self-evidently foolish statement when applied to any area of activity, such as driving, where unquantifiable values like judgement and experience play as important a role in assessing quality. You are insisting on the absolute primacy of an engineer's or statistician's mindset when applied to a product whose value is determined through individual judgement and discrimination and not merely "metrics". Bigger does not mean better.

The M240i isn't bigger. It's the same size as the 330i. It's simply provides higher performance in the same package. Any attempt to deny that is foolish.

If you want to talk about "experience", the M240i will still win. The butt dyno will experience thrust. The ears and the body will feel the smooth rev and hear the music of the I-6. The M240i wins.

[BarryJI]

Originally Posted by Y0tsuya

The M240i isn't bigger. It's the same size as the 330i. It's simply provides higher performance in the same package. Any attempt to deny that is foolish.

Of course it's bigger than the 230i. It is heavier and has a bigger engine. Why do you keep comparing the 2 with a 3?

[Y0tsuya]

Originally Posted by BarryJI

Of course it's bigger than the 230i. It is heavier and has a bigger engine. Why do you keep comparing the 2 with a 3?

Typo. Sorry.

So the M240i is 5% heavier than the 230i. My point is the 5% difference in weight is a small tradeoff compared to the 40% increase in thrust. That difference is so small that it can be made up by sitting a skinny dude in the M240i and a fat dude in the 230i. The extra weight doesn't seem to affect the cornering much at all, on the skidpad at least.

[flypenfly]

Skidpad numbers are one data point. A bigger data point is how it does in slaloms, quick switchbacks, and where the weight is located.

I don't know, it's kind of like explaining great sex to someone who has only read about it or watched it on the internet.

It's not just the x% difference in weight, it's where is the center of gravity of the car, how well does it transfer it's weight without becoming unsettled in the middle of trail braking lap over lap. How eager and responsive is the engine across it's rev band and does it bite you if you make small mistakes from fatigue.

There's a humongous amount about how a car feels than just 2 numbers. It's like my nephew who used to be obsessed with 0 to 60 times...

Also spec sheet numbers aren't totally accurate anyway, one example of a 228i actually just weighing 3091lbs.

http://www.2addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1117222

[BarryJI]

^^ This should really be the last word ^^

[morphomeman]

I can't resist: sex is about more than thrust, and so is a car.
But there are those who need to compensate.

[p912guy]

Well, we're on page 9 now of the Great 4 v 6 Debate. Show of hands, which 228/230 owners want have decided they need the more powerful 235/240, and which 235/240 owners have decided they need the lighter, "better balanced" 228/230? Bueller? Bueller?

Or, more likely, who made the perfect choice? Me, I chose wisely - no regrets here

[aozer]

Originally Posted by morphomeman

I can't resist: sex is about more than thrust, and so is a car.
But there are those who need to compensate.

Those backhanded jabs just make you sound jealous. I've owned both the 228 and 235. I guess my dick shrunk when I decided to upgrade.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by Y0tsuya

Yes you're pushing that angle pretty hard. Quality can be measured via numbers. BMW wouldn't go through all that trouble trying to achieve a 50/50 balance if it's just a bunch of number on paper. Their engineers burn midnight oil moving things around on the design to reach that number. I've already said loooong ago that people feel different things about different cars and am OK with that, but you seem to have missed it. My assertion is that when you consider all metrics that can be measured, the M240i comes out on top of 330i.

You, sir, need to read one of my favorite books: 'Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance' by Robert Pirsig. One of the great soliloquial chapters of 20th-century American prose is in that book. Its topic is the undefinable nature of quality and the philosophies behind the term -- as it relates to a motorcycle.

Read it. Get back to us. It refutes everything you believe, and supports everything nearly everyone else in this thread believes.

[USA-RET]

So I guess it's settled then, the 228/230i is a better car, or was it the M235/M240.