[ORIGIN M.]

M-DCT

Holding Boost better, shift after shift.

[LinkF1]

I haven't enjoyed a BMW manual since my E36 M3. I love the DCT in my 135, I dislike the 8AT in my wife's Z4 and hated the manual in my E46 325Ci. I want to step up to the M-DCT from my current DCT but if it isn't offered I may step down to the M235i and go manual. I don't need the size of the M3 and the upgrade from M235 to the M2 will be even less of a jump without the offering of DCT.

[gtfalve]

[QUOTE=sstarrx3;17919867]

Originally Posted by Adem1534

Not at all...an M car is no more a sports car than a Mustang is. If it can have all that HP and Torque and still get smoked on a road course by a proper sports car with less power and torque then its not a proper sports car. Its all about light weight and handling.

I'd consider a Mustang a sports car too. Built for performance and fun aka not an econobox or an SUV. We can all have our own definition of sports car I suppose, but mine certainly doesn't match yours. Do you consider a Scion FR-S more of a sports car than an M4?

[cc3]

Manual only would help to differentiate from M3/4 and mean less impact on sale of those models so can see it is plausible. Also need to keep cost down and Cayman GT4 has won rave reviews for sticking to manual. 365 bhp means just a couple of tenths quicker than 1M but really down to how it drives and what it looks like.

Still think there will be an uprated limited edition model pushing 400 bhp to get closer to cars like GT4 but with a big uplift in price.

[Steven1077]

It's never going to be manual only, and even if it was it wouldn't make me buy an M3, they will just lose a sale

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by Steven1077

Could be the opposite, they could just make it a DCT, I bet 80% of M3/4 that are sold are DCT, plenty of fast cars don't have a stick shift as an option these days

September 2013:

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

Dogma 6.
M cars are manual only
Again we can look at the changing demographics of the market but also in the progress of drivetrain technology. BMW M is an innovator it has developed areas our competitors cannot tread and utilises technology designed for Motorsport purpose on the road.
Each aspect is perfectly tailored to suit each individual model. An M car is special because it starts off with the key component. An excellent road car chassis and then they work on that to develop each element from gearshift to steering to dynamics etc. new technology such as the M DCT are more suited to cars like the M5 and M6 because of their status in the luxury market. Smaller M cars are more enthusiast driven so there is more need for more communication from the driver to the car.
But in recent years we have begun to see the demise of the manual. Sales of vehicles especially BMWs with manual transmissions are in decline and we are at an interesting phase to see if they will eventually die out. The only thing that can prevent that is for customers to continue to buy cars with manual transmission.
For BMW M. It understands that the purest form of performance driving lies with a manual transmission which is why the upcoming BMW M3 and BMW M4 will be offered with a manual transmission as will the next generation BMW M2 Coupe.

[Steven1077]

Just like I said the manual is selling less than auto or dct, but dct is manual anyway isn't it? Just doesn't have a stick, and that article is almost 2 years old, no doubt they will offer stick and dct option, but not just a stick as there will be more demand for dct and they can charge a lot more for the car with that fitted

[Roundown]

Originally Posted by Steven1077

Just like I said the manual is selling less than auto or dct, but dct is manual anyway isn't it? Just doesn't have a stick, and that article is almost 2 years old, no doubt they will offer stick and dct option, but not just a stick as there will be more demand for dct and they can charge a lot more for the car with that fitted

This tells me you've never driven a car with a manual transmission.

DCT is an automatic transmission. A wonderful one...but any automatic intermediates the driver from the car. It changes gears (though you may still select gears) for you, making many, small calculations that would otherwise be made by the driver. The additional calculus, the inputs into those decisions, etc. are what make manual transmissions more engaging to some drivers (myself included).

[W///]

Originally Posted by LinkF1

I haven't enjoyed a BMW manual since my E36 M3. I love the DCT in my 135, I dislike the 8AT in my wife's Z4 and hated the manual in my E46 325Ci. I want to step up to the M-DCT from my current DCT but if it isn't offered I may step down to the M235i and go manual. I don't need the size of the M3 and the upgrade from M235 to the M2 will be even less of a jump without the offering of DCT.

Personally, I prefer the 6MT in my E92 M3 than I do on the 5MT in my E36 M3. They are both completely different of course, and I know I'm probably in the minority. Just because the clutch is so light in the E92, it's so much easier for me to be smooth and it's not as difficult to drive in traffic in terms of effort.

[JustChris]

Originally Posted by cSurf

This tells me you've never driven a car with a manual transmission.

DCT is an automatic transmission. A wonderful one...but any automatic intermediates the driver from the car. It changes gears (though you may still select gears) for you, making many, small calculations that would otherwise be made by the driver. The additional calculus, the inputs into those decisions, etc. are what make manual transmissions more engaging to some drivers (myself included).

Pretty sure He's in the UK so will most definitely be very experienced with a 6MT! The comment about DCT being manual us of course also technically true but it acts as an automatic in reality. I use mine in manual nude 80% time.

Both are great options and M2 will certainly have both transmissions as options. At £2800 on the M4 though it adds a lot to the M2 price if the same cost.

[Roundown]

Originally Posted by M Car Chris

Pretty sure He's in the UK so will most definitely be very experienced with a 6MT! The comment about DCT being manual us of course also technically true but it acts as an automatic in reality. I use mine in manual nude 80% time.

Both are great options and M2 will certainly have both transmissions as options. At £2800 on the M4 though it adds a lot to the M2 price if the same cost.

DCT is a fantastic piece of technology, but it is no technical sense a manual transmission. The ability to instruct the car to change gears is <> to changing gears yourself.

A manual gearbox is about more than selecting gears, it's also the critical ballet that occurs between clutch, gas, and brake pedal. A manual box makes the driver a critical member of the drivetrain between the diff and the engine... it's a level of engagement and stress (good stress) that does not exist with a ZF8 or DCT.

Again- there are a lot of great reasons to go for an automatic (speed, traffic, etc.), but driver engagement (which, for me, translates to added fun) is not one of them.

[bim2er]

Originally Posted by cSurf

This tells me you've never driven a car with a manual transmission.

DCT is an automatic transmission. A wonderful one...but any automatic intermediates the driver from the car. It changes gears (though you may still select gears) for you, making many, small calculations that would otherwise be made by the driver. The additional calculus, the inputs into those decisions, etc. are what make manual transmissions more engaging to some drivers (myself included).

I would describe a DCT as a transmission that can shift automatically or can be manually shifted with significantly more engine control than the ZF 8 speed automatic. The greatest difference for me is what enables the engine to drive the driveshaft, double clutch or a torque converter. A torque converter based automatic is what I have issue with, not whether a transmission can shift automatically or not. I'm not saying that a manual does not provide more control. I just prefer the quicker technology.

I had a somewhat crude and brutal, but amazing at the limit SMG (Sequential Manual Gearbox) in an E60 M5.

A previous post said DCT does not have a stick. It does not have a clutch pedal, but it does have a gear selector that allows you to skip gears if you choose.

[Die ///M Rakete]

Originally Posted by Artemis

September 2013:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
Dogma 6.
M cars are manual only
Again we can look at the changing demographics of the market but also in the progress of drivetrain technology. BMW M is an innovator it has developed areas our competitors cannot tread and utilises technology designed for Motorsport purpose on the road.
Each aspect is perfectly tailored to suit each individual model. An M car is special because it starts off with the key component. An excellent road car chassis and then they work on that to develop each element from gearshift to steering to dynamics etc. new technology such as the M DCT are more suited to cars like the M5 and M6 because of their status in the luxury market. Smaller M cars are more enthusiast driven so there is more need for more communication from the driver to the car.
But in recent years we have begun to see the demise of the manual. Sales of vehicles especially BMWs with manual transmissions are in decline and we are at an interesting phase to see if they will eventually die out. The only thing that can prevent that is for customers to continue to buy cars with manual transmission.
For BMW M. It understands that the purest form of performance driving lies with a manual transmission which is why the upcoming BMW M3 and BMW M4 will be offered with a manual transmission as will the next generation BMW M2 Coupe.

I find it amusing when someone posts an incontrovertible counter-argument like you did here with that quote that came straight from horse's mouth and the peanut gallery just pretends it isn't there and just goes about their business with half-baked retorts.

You gotta love it

[DSTR]

Originally Posted by gtfalve

Save the $3k and get the appropriate transmission for a proper sports car. 6MT

Tell that to Porsche Gt3 or GT3 Rs members of new. More sportscar than anything BMW has. They do not have manual choice new now. Serious track cars they are.
DCT M2 will be a valid choice and those drivers as sporting as you.

[DSTR]

Originally Posted by red-sauerkraut

M-DCT

Holding Boost better, shift after shift.

[W///]

Originally Posted by DSTR

Tell that to Porsche Gt3 or GT3 Rs members of new. More sportscar than anything BMW has. They do not have manual choice new now. Serious track cars they are.
DCT M2 will be a valid choice and those drivers as sporting as you.

So what is a GT4 then?

[Roundown]

Originally Posted by DSTR

Tell that to Porsche Gt3 or GT3 Rs members of new. More sportscar than anything BMW has. They do not have manual choice new now. Serious track cars they are.
DCT M2 will be a valid choice and those drivers as sporting as you.

GT4 exists as a manual only car because of the collective cry from the Porsche fan base at the loss of a manual GT car. Turned out the raw performance wasn't the only reason people buy a Porsche...

Again- DCT and PDK are fantastic bits of technology that make these cars faster. They make these cars faster by intermediating the driver. If your definition of a sports car is the the fastest Sunday racer- then you'll need PDK. In a Porsche. BMW M makes fast, sharp series cars, not sports cars (at least not on the level of a Porsche GT car). Bad analogy, IMHO.

I'd also add that GT3 and GT3 RS also have computer-controlled rear wheel steering. That's also a cool bit of go-fast tech, but again, it's interpreting driver input and making decisions on your behalf. Nissan GTR also has this tech and is also an incredibly fast car, but it's about as fun to drive as the Starship Enterprise.

This thinking, at the extreme- would have arguing that you should option the 'self-driving' feature so that you claim a car that turns 7 min Ring times (while you read the paper). Sure- you hit the ignition, you were in the car...but did you have any fun?

Let me reiterate that I don't dislike auto boxes, I dislike the two assertions that always come up in these threads:

1. Manuals are dead. Because race car.
2. Manuals are awesome, my DCT is a manual.

Manuals are not dead. Because fun.

DCT is not a manual transmission. It's a really fancy automatic transmission. It changes gears for you, it does the math on cornering loads, diff rpm, engine rpm and decides whether or not to take your input on changes gears...then changes gears for you.

Again, ceding a connection with your car that only an MT can provide for outright performance, ease of use as a DD etc. are perfectly legitimate reasons to buy a DCT/auto.

[B-1Pilot]

I know, right? screw all technology... I want my next M to have two sold axles with leaf springs, no power steering, and a carburetor instead of fuel injection. I wouldn't want anything to interpret my driver input and make decisions on my behalf.

The a manual is for those are nostalgic, those who are novice and learning, and of course, for those who get enjoyment out of rowing their own. Don't get me wrong; I love winding up the RPM in the Porsche and working the third pedal -- but, performance wise? No way, no how any manual is better than DCT or PDK.

Saying I have ceded a connection with my car that only a manual can provide is silly too. I am an American -- I like texting, eating a Double-Double Animal style, and smoking your ass at a stoplight to stoplight race, all at the same time -- see what you are missing out on Mr. MT?

My guess is BMW will have a manual and DCT in the M2/3/4, because nostalgia, novice, and fun equate to enough of a market to produce both. The M5/6/7 will be auto only based on exactly the same variables and lack of the market for it.

By the way, DCT is not an automatic just as much as it is not a manual.

[Roundown]

Originally Posted by B-1Pilot

I know, right? screw all technology... I want my next M to have two sold axles with leaf springs, no power steering, and a carburetor instead of fuel injection. I wouldn't want anything to interpret my driver input and make decisions on my behalf.

The a manual is for those are nostalgic, those who are novice and learning, and of course, for those who get enjoyment out of rowing their own. Don't get me wrong; I love winding up the RPM in the Porsche and working the third pedal -- but, performance wise? No way, no how any manual is better than DCT or PDK.

Saying I have ceded a connection with my car that only a manual can provide is silly too. I am an American -- I like texting, eating a Double-Double Animal style, and smoking your ass at a stoplight to stoplight race, all at the same time -- see what you are missing out on Mr. MT?

My guess is BMW will have a manual and DCT in the M2/3/4, because nostalgia, novice, and fun equate to enough of a market to produce both. The M5/6/7 will be auto only based on exactly the same variables and lack of the market for it.

By the way, DCT is not an automatic just as much as it is not a manual.

You totally get it, it's refreshing. I too wish my 1M had leaf springs.

DCT is less engaging, it's also faster. At some point, using technology as a means to end -that is defined as 'magazine speed'- requires intermediating the driver. We're discussing the marginal return in performance vs. the loss of engagement. There are folks with different goals, who value that trade off differently. That's why we're offered both transmissions (but not leaf springs).

[DSTR]

Originally Posted by W///

So what is a GT4 then?

A very nice Porsche that is slower than either the GT3 or GT3RS. I think Porsche did a very nice job with the car. It will make the owners happy.

[fuddman]

Originally Posted by cSurf

This thinking, at the extreme- would have arguing that you should option the 'self-driving' feature so that you claim a car that turns 7 min Ring times (while you read the paper). Sure- you hit the ignition, you were in the car...but did you have any fun?

Of course he (whoever you're referring to) had fun! Being first at the finish line is, viscerally, way more fun than being second. And for that reason, you're not going to win the debate by bringing up "fun."
To me, the 6 spd is, today, less about fun and, more about rebellion, non conformity, control and those kinds of things. The same kinds of things which motivated this character from the movie American Graffiti.

[DSTR]

Originally Posted by cSurf

GT4 exists as a manual only car because of the collective cry from the Porsche fan base at the loss of a manual GT car. Turned out the raw performance wasn't the only reason people buy a Porsche...

Again- DCT and PDK are fantastic bits of technology that make these cars faster. They make these cars faster by intermediating the driver. If your definition of a sports car is the the fastest Sunday racer- then you'll need PDK. In a Porsche. BMW M makes fast, sharp series cars, not sports cars (at least not on the level of a Porsche GT car). Bad analogy, IMHO.

I'd also add that GT3 and GT3 RS also have computer-controlled rear wheel steering. That's also a cool bit of go-fast tech, but again, it's interpreting driver input and making decisions on your behalf. Nissan GTR also has this tech and is also an incredibly fast car, but it's about as fun to drive as the Starship Enterprise.

This thinking, at the extreme- would have arguing that you should option the 'self-driving' feature so that you claim a car that turns 7 min Ring times (while you read the paper). Sure- you hit the ignition, you were in the car...but did you have any fun?

Let me reiterate that I don't dislike auto boxes, I dislike the two assertions that always come up in these threads:

1. Manuals are dead. Because race car.
2. Manuals are awesome, my DCT is a manual.

Manuals are not dead. Because fun.

DCT is not a manual transmission. It's a really fancy automatic transmission. It changes gears for you, it does the math on cornering loads, diff rpm, engine rpm and decides whether or not to take your input on changes gears...then changes gears for you.

Again, ceding a connection with your car that only an MT can provide for outright performance, ease of use as a DD etc. are perfectly legitimate reasons to buy a DCT/auto.

I open the door, sit in the car and control it. Connected. The gearbox is but one piece of that equation. Porsche has responded to the track car crowd siting they have no problem with the PDK at all. I live near the factory and have contact/friends in Weissach as well. There is no conspiracy at Porsche in terms of gearbox. Buy as you like. Porsche build as demand and market dictate.
I could care less about the argument of what is manual or not manual. You drive the car. If you like to shift manual and its avail you buy it. Or DCT as you see fit as the driver and purchaser. Always a personal decision, that does not make one less, or more, compared to other drivers.