[golf_234]

Originally Posted by RocketJohn

I think it's awesome where the "entry level, low cost model" has power better or on par with what we thought was amazing and highly sought after 20 years ago with the BMW E36 M3 :

"The first E36 M3 to be imported to the United States was the 1995 model, which used the S50B30US engine with 240 bhp (179 kW; 243 PS) and 305 N·m (225 lb·ft)"

BMW 228i specs:
243 PS (179 kW; 240 hp)@5000–6500, 346 N·m (255 lb·ft)@1250–4800

At the time the E36 M3 came out, I was driving an E36 318iS and while my car was super light as it was a 1992 model with only the sunroof and a/c as options, (no auto, no tilt, no leather, no trip, no nothing) it was still a thrill to get seat time in a 325i and even more so in an M3. I was floored how much more powerful the M3 was with its additional 100hp over my 318iS.

I guess it's all relative, and I know the 2 models are heavier, but they are also remarkably better made, equipped and reliable. I think we now live in glorious times to have choices as we do and where we don't, say with the auto vs manual, the auto transmissions in the BMW are so impressive.

Such great 1st world problems!

This. Sometimes people get sentimental and everything, but it really dawned on me when a couple days ago I was watching some MJ interviews on YouTube and came across his retirement interview on Oprah ~1998. The ads on TV were SO bad. Literally had me thinking of how nightmarish things were back then. Technology has come a long way. Never going back. Haha.

[DarkstarZero]

Originally Posted by RocketJohn

"The first E36 M3 to be imported to the United States was the 1995 model, which used the S50B30US engine with 240 bhp (179 kW; 243 PS) and 305 N·m (225 lb·ft)"

BMW 228i specs:
243 PS (179 kW; 240 hp)@5000–6500, 346 N·m (255 lb·ft)@1250–4800

Dinan found that the 228i is actually producing 261hp and 290ft/lb from the factory. BMW was extremely conservative with their numbers. The e36 M3 was back when BMW was measuring their HP at the crank, the S50 engine was producing more like 215-220 at the wheels.

[3.0L]

Originally Posted by DarkstarZero

Dinan found that the 228i is actually producing 261hp and 290ft/lb at the wheels from the factory. BMW was extremely conservative with their numbers. The e36 M3 was back when BMW was measuring their HP at the crank, the S50 engine was producing more like 220 at the wheels.

Is the factory rating for 228i at the flywheel, or wheels?

[Steven1077]

BMW tend to underrate there engines a lot these days

[fkacct]

Originally Posted by DarkstarZero

Dinan found that the 228i is actually producing 261hp and 290ft/lb at the wheels from the factory. BMW was extremely conservative with their numbers. The e36 M3 was back when BMW was measuring their HP at the crank, the S50 engine was producing more like 220 at the wheels.

No wonder my 228i feels so damn fast! What does 261hp/290ft/lb translate into at the crank?

Do you have this same chart for the M235i

[335BOY]

Originally Posted by Steven1077

BMW tend to underrate there engines a lot these days

Anyone know why they do that? Do some engines come out way hotter than others?

[mmmmm235i]

Originally Posted by pazzo

So I started at page one, search for the word "BETTER" and this is the first use of the word "better" in this thread (page 2), that was used unequivocally.

That means YOU are the first to use the word "BETTER" without the context of it being in your opinion.

Food for thought.

Thanks Pazzo for jumping in to defend you buddies and as usual not making sense. Sorry, but those exaggerated examples that you say Chaz was trying to make needs no defense. All the 28 owners want to say how close the two cars are and 35 owners are wasteful, but then you apply an example of two vastly different things. 28 engines, saving the world one vehicle at a time, you know what I'm trading my car in now for a 228 w/ THP.

Just for arguments sake:
Here is the post taken in context:

Originally Posted by bluemeanie View Post
If you compare the numbers for the 228i and the 235i on the Dinan page the "measured" stock 235i made 326 hp and the tuned 228i made 311 hp. The torque curves are also quite interesting with the 235i having max torque at low rpms while the 228i peaks at much higher rpms and higher in the hp range. If one wanted a track-oriented car, the higher rpm/hp range would be more relevant.

Anyway just some food for thought and please give us a report on your Dinan installation and performance.
My Post:
By this logic the 235 would be the better choice for the street then. I don't know why everyone thinks that 320hp is useless on the streets. The car has so much torque that you really do feel the difference down low at normal driving speeds. You don't have to be going 80 to feel the extra 80hp. We are not talking about a high reving 500 hp car that tops out at 205. I have driven both engines before and there is a noticeable difference.
Also to compare a tuned 228 to a stock 235 is ridiculous for a lot of reasons, but mainly who's to say that the 235 buyer is less likely to get a tune? IF the OP is interested in getting a tune it changes the question completely.
The 235 is really a good value as others have pointed out. OP you would not be penalizing yourself two cylinders, you are practically stealing them.


This may be going over your head, but here is a little english/communication lesson. There is something called a qualifier, which makes the previous or subsequent statement apply to limited situations. In this case that qualifier was "choice for the street." That means everything said in that post was in response to the idea that one car was better suited for the track v. street. I was not saying that the car was better in an overall sense. You are obviously too stupid to deconstruct an argument and understand the point.
SO, taken in context I was simply responding to another poster's notions about driveabiliity. That was a great use of your time digging that up though. Sorry maybe I just expect a more logical debate among owners in a forum to debate cars. I will happily respond to anyones questions or disagreement with my logic, but I will not accept any hate from you clowns because I am trying to make sense of your side and make you understand mine. I hope you learned something.

[pazzo]

Originally Posted by mmmmm235i

My Post:
By this logic the 228 would be the better choice for the track then.

There I fixed it for you.

[mmmmm235i]

Originally Posted by pazzo

There I fixed it for you.

Why are you even in this forum? Obviously rather than responding with something intelligent to my clearly thought out response, you post this shit. Also I don't get the joke...your a moron

[nike001]

Originally Posted by fkacct

No wonder my 228i feels so damn fast! What does 261hp/290ft/lb translate into at the crank?

Do you have this same chart for the M235i

Dinan figured crank power here, not wheel. 261 whp would put any car well over 300hp crank.

Here's Dinan's chart for their M235i measurements: (326hp & 379 ft/lb - marginally underrated in horsepower, vastly underrated in torque IMO)

[pazzo]

Originally Posted by mmmmm235i

Why are you even in this forum? Obviously rather than responding with something intelligent to my clearly thought out response, you post this shit. Also I don't get the joke...your a moron

Resorting to name calling? That's says it all.

By your own twisted (logical??) response you had to this post:

+++++++++++++++
Originally Posted by bluemeanie View Post
If you compare the numbers for the 228i and the 235i on the Dinan page the "measured" stock 235i made 326 hp and the tuned 228i made 311 hp. The torque curves are also quite interesting with the 235i having max torque at low rpms while the 228i peaks at much higher rpms and higher in the hp range. If one wanted a track-oriented car, the higher rpm/hp range would be more relevant.

Anyway just some food for thought and please give us a report on your Dinan installation and performance.
My Post:
By this logic the 235 would be the better choice for the street then.
+++++++++++++++++

You reached a bogus conclusion of better, based on hp and torque alone.
If that is your conclusion, then the converse would be true.

Why am I not surprised you don't get it? The same reason you fail to comprehend that an INDIVIDUAL's requirements will determine what is BETTER for that person.

You are full of unequivocal statements and full of ...

[midwest 340xi 6sp]

Thanks for confirming two of the many reasons why I love this car so much...

Originally Posted by nike001

Dinan figured crank power here, not wheel. 261 whp would put any car well over 300hp crank.

Here's Dinan's chart for their M235i measurements: (326hp & 379 ft/lb - marginally underrated in horsepower, vastly underrated in torque IMO)

[shark715]

Originally Posted by mmmmm235i

Why are you even in this forum? Obviously rather than responding with something intelligent to my clearly thought out response, you post this shit. Also I don't get the joke...your a moron

moderator, isn't it time to just throw these guys off the forum? Jeez, enough. They don't have any respect for the forum rules nor the other forum members.

[mmmmm235i]

+++++++++++++++++

You reached a bogus conclusion of better, based on hp and torque alone.
If that is your conclusion, then the converse would be true.

Why am I not surprised you don't get it? The same reason you fail to comprehend that an INDIVIDUAL's requirements will determine what is BETTER for that person.

You are full of unequivocal statements and full of ...[/QUOTE]

Congratulations!! you understood my post. Thats reassuring because I literally thought you were a moron. Obviously measuring based on hp/tq alone is not a good place to start and that is not what I did. I responded to someone elses opinion. Yes the converse of my statement would essentially be the same statement. You are acting like I said the 235 is better on street AND track. I was making the point that if you feel the power down low on the 235, then the argument about the 320hp being unusable on the street holds no water.
Are you still following me? Because if you used some of the basic reading comprehension skills that you have demonstrated in your last post, we wouldn't be at this point. (ie. me teaching you how to construct a sound and logical argument.
So yes you are correct in interpreting my post to also mean that the 228 may be more of an even comparison with the m235 on the track, where the 28 shines (I'm not sure what is funny about that". I can't really understand where the misunderstanding is. It just seems like you pick out one sentence take it out of context and then bitch. Why don't you use those reading skills and save us all some time. Maybe next time you can provide something constructive to the debate.

[mmmmm235i]

Originally Posted by shark715

moderator, isn't it time to just throw these guys off the forum? Jeez, enough. They don't have any respect for the forum rules nor the other forum members.

I apologize if any of my posts have offended you. It is truly my intention to give a legitimate and thought out opinion that others might benefit from. If I am giving false info or saying something incorrect, I would be the first to admit it. Instead these jokers are just complaining about anything that they don't like. I will not however, put up with antagonizing people who want to talk shit instead of talking cars. I have been a member of this forum for well over 5 years and rarely get into this type of thing. Sometimes the trolls get the best of you though and I apologize.

[pazzo]

Numerous people have been trying to tell you better is subjective/opinion for several pages now. You're entitled to your opinion, but getting upset because everyone else doesn't share that opinion is immature and arrogant.

As far as me following your continued attacks and you trying to "teach me", I never said 320hp was unusable on the street.

Get some self-control.

[mmmmm235i]

Originally Posted by pazzo

Numerous people have been trying to tell you better is subjective/opinion for several pages now. You're entitled to your opinion, but getting upset because everyone else doesn't share that opinion is immature and arrogant.

As far as me following your continued attacks and you trying to "teach me", I never said 320hp was unusable on the street.

Get some self-control.

I know I'm just doing exactly what you want me to do, but I just can't stand people that just want to talk and don't listen. First of all when you did your little search you probably should have started by searching "Best" because that was the issue people were upset with. "Better" on the other hand is pretty much subjective by definition. It falls some where between the same and the best. What I think better means could be different what you think better means. So thanks for arbitrarily using your time to figure out a way to attack me, cool bro. Also, I don't recall accusing you of calling the hp unusable, you are the one who brought that up, when you so eloquently quoted my previous post, oh wait, no you missed the whole point. I'm not upset that people disagree with me, I just ask that they support their claims with good information so we can all learn something about our cars. Obviously people have different needs and priorities because this is what drives the entire economy. However, posting these types of arguments on a car enthusiast forum is odd. I think we are all here because no matter what car we are driving we want it to be the best that it can be.
It's okay though, if you want to call me immature and arrogant, that's fine because even your interpretation of my last post was wrong.So I can care less about your opinion of me. Anyway, I'm trying to teach you how to communicate like a human with words and ideas. I never once spoke to you about usable hp on the street so why would I be "attacking" you about that. You jumped into this thread to agree with your other 28 owners and took my words out of context and started with me. Why did you feel the need to bother to defend someone who continues to make irrelevant examples in what is supposed to be an informative thread. What don't you understand about shoving your opinion down other people's throats. I have hardly brought up the car with you because you just want to call me names. The VO owners decided to get into it with me because they are so sensitive that I "left them out" simply because I was trying to avoid comments like "well you can't get a 235 in orange." Because if that is a concern for you than go with a 228. Meanwhile I couldn't be happier that you guys love your cars, this should not be emotional, we are just comparing cars. I'm clearly not getting through to you to so I will take the smartest thing you said so far and excercise self-control by making this my last post. I suggest you do the same, enjoy your car and relax a little.

[chaswyck1]

Originally Posted by mmmmm235i

I apologize if any of my posts have offended you. It is truly my intention to give a legitimate and thought out opinion that others might benefit from. If I am giving false info or saying something incorrect, I would be the first to admit it. Instead these jokers are just complaining about anything that they don't like. I will not however, put up with antagonizing people who want to talk shit instead of talking cars. I have been a member of this forum for well over 5 years and rarely get into this type of thing. Sometimes the trolls get the best of you though and I apologize.

Being on this forum for five years doesn't give you license to name call and use profanity.

[fkacct]

Originally Posted by nike001

Dinan figured crank power here, not wheel. 261 whp would put any car well over 300hp crank.

Here's Dinan's chart for their M235i measurements: (326hp & 379 ft/lb - marginally underrated in horsepower, vastly underrated in torque IMO

Thanks for the charts nike001! Good info here.

[DarkstarZero]

Originally Posted by nike001

Dinan figured crank power here, not wheel. 261 whp would put any car well over 300hp crank.

You're right, my mistake. I couldn't find a 228 dyno but here's a video of the Z4 28i being dyno'd by InsideLine, it produces 233whp.

Perhaps a more real-world example of what the N26 engine can do, here's a post I made on 0-60 figures in my 328xi station wagon:

http://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=976502

Stock it was hitting 60 in 5.8, with the BMS tune on stage 2, it hits 60 in 4.8s. Impressive numbers for a 2 ton wagon with a 4 pot engine. I can only imagine what that engine can do in the 228, a car weighing 700lbs less. Because I don't have one :-P

Here's that Dyno video...
[u2b]http://youtu.be/cpMkB29UF7U[/u2b]

[Inline_Six]

Originally Posted by DarkstarZero

LMAO

[RocketJohn]

I'm still amazed BMW is offering X-Drive in almost all their vehicles. Even more amazed they offer X-drive in the 2 series. Really happy they didn't call it X-Drive but offer some inferior FWD setup and a sprinkling of AWD (cough HALDEX cough AUDI cough cough)