[uberspeed]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

http://jalopnik.com/what-the-hell-is...way-1604799947

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-alcantara.htm

http://beverlyhillsporsche.blogspot....-clean-it.html

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cloth

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fabric?s=t

Cloth = fabric and fabric = cloth

Gotta love that polyester and polyurethane! The power of marketing!!

But, agree that more choices are better!

Good info. Made in Italy always adds a certain panache
I just like how it grips my bum in a seat and doesn't heat up as bad as vinyl in SoFla. Provenance is inconsequential to me.

[angelbones]

Originally Posted by nike001

You seem to misunderstand the auto industry as a whole. Alcantara is not "cloth" or anything like it. It IS a premium fabric and isn't what you'd get in a base Cobalt. Your post is why BMW won't put Alcantara in US cars, people don't understand what it is, so therefore it is labeled "cloth" and indicates that BMW is selling junk. American ignorance at it's finest.

I understand what it is, you know what it is, and I'm sure most people on this forum understand what Alcantara is. But what you said reinforces my point. American people are ignorant and ill-informed when it comes to buying cars. Even those sophisticated enough to buy BMW. BMW won't put it in US cars because most buyers understand it to mean cloth, or premium cloth, or premium fabric, however you want to phrase it, and to the average ignorant American, that means lesser quality. As enthusiasts, we know better, and know the advantages to having this kind of interior when you're tooling around the track. However, I think whether you like Alcantara or not, every person who has responded agrees that having that choice would be nice, and I am also of the opinion that it should be a driver's choice.

[mmmmm235i]

There is no point in complaining, it is not a new idea that different continents get different options. The interior is pretty nice looking, I think it is a little over kill and not all of that fabric is functional. I would need to have it in some variation of black which I think would look awesome. I absolutely do not think it would be a good business decision for BMW to make this the default, so many people are more concerned about appearances and the look of leather. WE are such a small portion of the market, like sub 1%, and most people don't want cloth even if it does hold you in place under aggressive driving conditions. Although this is simple business I have been a little bit disappointed with the customization offers around the 235. They have given an extremely limited color pallet and I could easily see something like this offerred as part of a sport package or an extra option to add some alcantara to side bolsters and what not. Audi has offerred this as an option on a bunch of their cars for years, just not as a default option. So I share the disappointment over a lack of options on this car, but I'm sure once its been around for a few years we will see some improvements here. Its part of the price you pay for owning something so new. BMW is a mass producer of vehicles and adding this option (I'd want a few alcantara color choices) would cut into margins and increase price for every model across the board. In other words, not going to happen. This is why you can choose everything when you go get a porsche or the like. $$$

[Kiwi]

Not many companies will even sell in America due to being sued for a hot cup of coffee. What they do if they do sell in America is a basic product. BMW cars have a minimum type of car which is easy to keep track of where as New Zealand who is a very small countries has all engines available and options with only a 1,900 cars including Mini sold per year and we are at the bottom of the world with huge transport costs.

[nachob]

Originally Posted by uberspeed

Good info. Made in Italy always adds a certain panache
I just like how it grips my bum in a seat and doesn't heat up as bad as vinyl in SoFla. Provenance is inconsequential to me.

Yes, we all love how it grips our bums!

[MikeT]

Originally Posted by Kiwi

Not many companies will even sell in America due to being sued for a hot cup of coffee. What they do if they do sell in America is a basic product. BMW cars have a minimum type of car which is easy to keep track of where as New Zealand who is a very small countries has all engines available and options with only a 1,900 cars including Mini sold per year and we are at the bottom of the world with huge transport costs.

Fair enough, but all of those engines and options come at a steep price. I notice that the M235i is listed at NZD $104,800 which is the equivalent of US $79K. Yikes, for that kind of money, we Yanks can have an M235i... and a 228i.

[huma]

Originally Posted by MikeT

Fair enough, but all of those engines and options come at a steep price. I notice that the M235i is listed at NZD $104,800 which is the equivalent of US $79K. Yikes, for that kind of money, we Yanks can have an M235i... and a 228i.

Their income is most likely higher and it would be fairly comparable to us in the states.

[bladeomatic]

Originally Posted by angelbones

That said, 85%+ of Americans will not consider that a luxury car, and will just go buy a Buick or Ford and save some cash.

<coffee spit!>
Nope.
I don't believe that most people would make this kind of snap judgement either.
Takes a lot more than an animal skin to get me comparing any BMW with any Buick or (worse) Ford.
I would drive a BMW with a picnic bench over most Fords with magic fingers vibrating massage seats.

Originally Posted by angelbones

But for BMW to keep selling M235s in the US means that you are going to have to sacrifice adding a little bit of extras that the vast majority of people want in order to get to what makes the M235 special: the engine and suspension.

Agree, that the drivetrain is the "secret sauce" of this model and I too will enjoy my ride based on all the things they got right with this car. My fundamental issue is that there are options "over there" that aren't available "over here". And they don't seem to make sense. Let's not pretend that there's this enormous Canadian production line for 2 series that includes:

-Alcantara seats
-40/20/40 split rear seat

Where miles away is a separate US facility, tooled specifically for producing:

-Leather seats
-60/40 split rear seat

Of course that would be silly. The 2 series is a relatively small production line and it's got options available to various markets. Sometimes a regional option makes sense (emissions, lights, instruments, safety options, etc.). But for the 2 examples above, I can't fathom why they aren't universally available.

-EPA doesn't approve of the chemicals used in the Alcantara production process?
-Split rear seat doesn't meet crash test guidelines for US market?

No idea, but on face value it seems silly.

[dtcoff]

Same here in Australia. BMW Australia decide on the standard spec and options that they think we want. Our prices are very high compared to US, but they try to justify this by having a lot of options included in the base price, even if we don't want them. Classic example here is that every model with a bigger engine also has more standard options, forcing a bigger price difference.

It would be much better if they started at the lower spec as per other markets, US for example and just let customers configure their cars how they like it. There is no factory limitation, as the factory just builds each car as requested. Also let us choose options how we want, rather than forcing options together in packages. By all means keep the packages as it gives a better price, but only if we want all the options in the package.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by bladeomatic

<coffee spit!>
But for the 2 examples above, I can't fathom why they aren't universally available.

-EPA doesn't approve of the chemicals used in the Alcantara production process?
-Split rear seat doesn't meet crash test guidelines for US market?

No idea, but on face value it seems silly.

U.S. (perhaps along with Canada - not sure) seat sets are unique part numbers due to FMVSS regulations requiring occupant sensing at the U.S. calibration for the purposes of passenger air bag deployment. Seats are usually delivered in sets of front and rear on large pallets a few hours before the intended car passes the seat installation operator station (It's called just-in-time, in-sequence delivery). BMW apparently is managing an overall complexity of vinyl or leather times color times power vs. manual times different market requirements (as noted above). Eventually, the math explodes and the seat supplier is facilitized for only so many variations. They set the limits for what they perceive will be the high runners to match the vehicle demand. If they believed polyester/polyurethane fabric, um, uh, excuse me, Alcantara, had a higher take rate than vinyl or leather, that's what they would have substituted. But, they don't think they need more seat complexity to sell the intended vehicle volume, so they don't invest more in the seat supplier to capacitize for more complexity.

[nachob]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

U.S. (perhaps along with Canada - not sure) seat sets are unique part numbers due to FMVSS regulations requiring occupant sensing at the U.S. calibration for the purposes of passenger air bag deployment. Seats are usually delivered in sets of front and rear on large pallets a few hours before the intended car passes the seat installation operator station (It's called just-in-time, in-sequence delivery). BMW apparently is managing an overall complexity of vinyl or leather times color times power vs. manual times different market requirements (as noted above). Eventually, the math explodes and the seat supplier is facilitized for only so many variations. They set the limits for what they perceive will be the high runners to match the vehicle demand. If they believed polyester/polyurethane fabric, um, uh, excuse me, Alcantara, had a higher take rate than vinyl or leather, that's what they would have substituted. But, they don't think they need more seat complexity to sell the intended vehicle volume, so they don't invest more in the seat supplier to capacitize for more complexity.

Then just offer Alcantara and leather everywhere! Simple.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by nachob

Then just offer Alcantara and leather everywhere! Simple.

If they believed Alcantara had higher demand than SensaTec and the variable cost was the same or lower, BMW would likely do that. But, we can deduce those conditions do not exist.

[uberspeed]

Originally Posted by nachob

Yes, we all love how it grips our bums!

I was being over-simplistic but it stands to reason

[uberspeed]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

If they believed Alcantara had higher demand than SensaTec and the variable cost was the same or lower, BMW would likely do that. But, we can deduce those conditions do not exist.

I believe in this case BMW is being slow to respond which is always a bad thing. On one end a knee jerk reaction, on the other a way too slow to react product offering that loses ground to other manufacturers. At the very least ventilated seats on the base SensaTec, please!

[bladeomatic]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

BMW apparently is managing an overall complexity of vinyl or leather times color times power vs. manual times different market requirements (as noted above). Eventually, the math explodes and the seat supplier is facilitized for only so many variations. They set the limits for what they perceive will be the high runners to match the vehicle demand. If they believed polyester/polyurethane fabric, um, uh, excuse me, Alcantara, had a higher take rate than vinyl or leather, that's what they would have substituted. But, they don't think they need more seat complexity to sell the intended vehicle volume, so they don't invest more in the seat supplier to capacitize for more complexity.

I get the complexity and the exponential math involved in options x covering x colors, etc. If the math is exploding, then why have 2 different rear seat combos at all (40/60 vs. 40/20/40)?

These 2 rear-seat assemblies are far more of a nuisance in the assembly process and they're specific to the 2 series. Alcantara and Sensatec both must be bought in bulk to support the variety of all BMW's they're used in. Of course the tooling, setup and labor for each of these in the 2 series assembly line is different and therefore more inefficient than sticking with one covering. But far more work is required for the 2 rear-seat offerings and I wonder what reason they are assigned to the different regions?

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by bladeomatic

I get the complexity and the exponential math involved in options x covering x colors, etc. If the math is exploding, then why have 2 different rear seat combos at all (40/60 vs. 40/20/40)?

These 2 rear-seat assemblies are far more of a nuisance in the assembly process and they're specific to the 2 series. Alcantara and Sensatec both must be bought in bulk to support the variety of all BMW's they're used in. Of course the tooling, setup and labor for each of these in the 2 series assembly line is different and therefore more inefficient than sticking with one covering. But far more work is required for the 2 rear-seat offerings and I wonder what reason they are assigned to the different regions?

All the 2 Series seats are specific to the 2 Series by part number, as even if they look like the 3, they have to be certified for crash to the 2 with its particular crash pulse.

I don't know about the rear seat decision they made. I can only imagine they have local market differences which they feel they must address, or that the lower variable cost of the 40/60 makes a positive business case versus the complexity and they can get away with it in some markets. If the supplier has a front seat trim line and a separate rear seat trim line, taking out likely the power vs manual variation, and front-seat air bag sensor variation, they may have had fewer issues including both varieties for rear seat build-up.

Once the supplier builds up the seat set onto a pallet, and it goes into the ~4 hour bank and then sequentially to the plant, there is no significant difference in assembly from there forward. The attachment points for the rear seat are likely the same for both rear seat species, but the operation is still installation of one rear seat assembly, conveyed on an arm into position for simple attachment by the operator, followed by the front seats.

[challer]

10/10. Would've opted for this instead.

[CP911]

Bumping this thread because I'd like to know more about these seats as a possibility for my upcoming m240i purchase. First and foremost, is BMW still offering the cloth seats in other markets for the m240i like they did with the m235i? (*edit* - found out answer is yes) If so, I'm thinking there HAS to be a way to get these seats in our cars over here in the US, even if purchased aftermarket.

Are there any US dealers out there working with BMW dealers overseas to source these cloth interior parts as "replacement" parts? Perhaps there are people overseas ditching their "base" interiors for stripped out track builds, etc.? Any leads would be more than appreciated!

[M235ForNow]

Originally Posted by Kiwi

Not many companies will even sell in America due to being sued for a hot cup of coffee. What they do if they do sell in America is a basic product. BMW cars have a minimum type of car which is easy to keep track of where as New Zealand who is a very small countries has all engines available and options with only a 1,900 cars including Mini sold per year and we are at the bottom of the world with huge transport costs.

Just commenting - if you look into the reality behind the "hot cup of coffee" incident, it was nothing at all like the story that McD's and their marketing/lawyer group spread. The woman was BADLY hurt - as in extensive hospitalization. She didn't put it between her legs as she was driving. The coffee was boiling hot - far beyond what's reasonable. The woman simply asked for her medical bills to be covered and McD's stonewalled. And finally it progressed into a lawsuit. A completely reasonable lawsuit.

America is litigation happy - that's for sure. But this case wasn't one of them.

[aerobod]

For those who would like to swap the seat material to that available in a different market, it is fairly straight forward to do, just a matter of cost. For the hexagon cloth/alcantara, you will need these parts (schmiedmann.com can typically get them within 5 days and ships to North America, I've had great service from them in obtaining Euro mirrors for the M240i):
52-10-7-849-887 x2 front seat base USD $465.72
52-10-8-054-985 front seat back (left) USD $512.34
52-10-8-054-986 front seat back (right) USD $512.34
52-10-8-054-988 x2 thigh extension USD $54.73
52-10-8-054-989 x2 front headrest USD $191.48
52-20-8-055-227 rear seat base USD $604.22
52-20-8-057-951 rear seat back (left) USD $253.77
52-20-8-055-008 rear seat back (centre) USD $164.94
52-20-8-057-952 rear seat back (right) USD $253.77
52-20-8-055-225 rear side (left) USD $222.13
52-20-8-055-226 rear side (right) USD $222.13
52-20-8-057-028 rear top-middle USD $163.03
52-20-8-055-011 x2 rear headrest USD $186.71

Total before shipping and taxes is USD $4,705.95 plus the cost of labour to swap the upholstery over.

[CP911]

Originally Posted by mmmmm235i

There is no point in complaining, it is not a new idea that different continents get different options. The interior is pretty nice looking, I think it is a little over kill and not all of that fabric is functional. I would need to have it in some variation of black which I think would look awesome. I absolutely do not think it would be a good business decision for BMW to make this the default, so many people are more concerned about appearances and the look of leather. WE are such a small portion of the market, like sub 1%, and most people don't want cloth even if it does hold you in place under aggressive driving conditions. Although this is simple business I have been a little bit disappointed with the customization offers around the 235. They have given an extremely limited color pallet and I could easily see something like this offerred as part of a sport package or an extra option to add some alcantara to side bolsters and what not. Audi has offerred this as an option on a bunch of their cars for years, just not as a default option. So I share the disappointment over a lack of options on this car, but I'm sure once its been around for a few years we will see some improvements here. Its part of the price you pay for owning something so new. BMW is a mass producer of vehicles and adding this option (I'd want a few alcantara color choices) would cut into margins and increase price for every model across the board. In other words, not going to happen. This is why you can choose everything when you go get a porsche or the like. $$$

I agree that black stitching should be the default if these seats ever come stateside. However, as badly as I'd want these seats in my car for aesthetic and functional purposes, a blue stitched interior would admittedly feel odd and like overkill with the Melbourne Red exterior. The BMW badges and blue brake calipers provide just enough "M" blue on the car to look good without being too much. I was already planning to do black dash trim instead of matte blue for my build... not a fan of too much Spiderman effect with cars. One of the reasons I can't do Estoril Blue.. just don't like how red tail lights clash with the otherwise lovely blue paint. Just my personal opinion, of course.

As far as your take on the business case, I'm not so convinced. The enthusiast group is a relatively small market as you said, but isn't the US still a huge effing market? I guess we'll never know unless BMW NA tries it.. (*hint hint BMW* ) . Not to get political, but hopefully a BMW marketing person is reading this so I can remind him/her about how the secret Trump voters like myself made the difference (or the Russians? LOL).

Cheers!

CP911

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by CP911

... so I can remind him/her about how the secret Trump voters like myself made the difference (or the Russians? LOL).

Secret, huh? I completely understand the embarrassment.

As to cloth or the fake/synthetic suede known as Alcantara, the simple fact is lack of demand, and no one is keeping that a secret in automotive market research. If you wish to spend to import such seats from elsewhere, good luck with that, but unless the market does a dramatic reversal, SensaTec and leather (such as it is) will remain your choices. Remember, acceptance is the first step.