[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by thebmw

I guess you do...you just sent me a video link about it

LOL! Touche!

Originally Posted by thebmw

Obviously, I get that the DCT is faster than any human being. But I think you're completely missing the point here, especially when it comes to the purity of the Viper driving experience. 99% of drivers that drive a Viper (but really, most cars) will never be able to reach it's limits, thus, the DCT is irrelevant. That said, even if it did improve times by 0.2 seconds, WHO CARES!!! The thrill is gone.

99 percent of the drivers of those hypercars won't reach their limits, either. Does that make a DCT irrelevant in them? Plainly not. They were used in them precisely because it made them faster and more efficient, whether or not the operator can actually take maximum advantage of it.

Originally Posted by thebmw

Your example of vinyl records is way off. Vinyl sound reproduction is inaccurate, thus the uniqueness. Manuals aren't inaccurate. The appropriate comparison is playing an acoustic piano or guitar vs. playing music on an ipad keyboard. Keep your ipad keyboard and virtual reality s*x machine. I'll stick with the real thing.

No, it's not way off. Think about all of the times you (or anyone else) has missed a shift, or has synchro ring issues, or tried to quick-shift before the gearbox was warm, or made a first-to-second shift balk, or over-revved and caused the clutch plates to slip, or under-revved and caused the engine to fall out of the powerband, or ... you get my point, I hope. All of that and more makes a manual more inaccurate than a modern auto, much less a DCT.

Some context for you: Up until my last two cars, I owned nothing but manuals. That included several very, very fast motorcycles. I was as major a proponent as you still are. Dude, I get it.

But progress is progress.

(Also: I'm a gigging musician, a former professional music critic, and an audiophile who has built his own instruments and run a 24-channel audio board in both a recording studio and live venues. So, continue with the vinyl argument at your own risk.)

[Kolyan2k]

Sums it up in first 30 seconds

[Beartato]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

99 percent of the drivers of those hypercars won't reach their limits, either. Does that make a DCT irrelevant in them? Plainly not. They were used in them precisely because it made them faster and more efficient, whether or not the operator can actually take maximum advantage of it.

I think that has something to do with broadening the demographic by making the cars easier to drive, too.

Originally Posted by Viffermike

No, it's not way off. Think about all of the times you (or anyone else) has missed a shift, or has synchro ring issues, or tried to quick-shift before the gearbox was warm, or made a first-to-second shift balk, or over-revved and caused the clutch plates to slip, or under-revved and caused the engine to fall out of the powerband, or ... you get my point, I hope. All of that and more makes a manual more inaccurate than a modern auto, much less a DCT.

So people not knowing how to drive justifies the superiority of an auto? Give me a break.

So using that logic, instead of actually playing piano live one should program the music into FL Studio and play it that way, as to not make any mistakes.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by Beartato

I think that has something to do with broadening the demographic by making the cars easier to drive, too.

Which proves my point: Mo' people, mo' faster. Thanks!

Originally Posted by Beartato

So people not knowing how to drive justifies the superiority of an auto? Give me a break.

It does for the vast majority of drivers (even ones who like to go fast) in the vast majority of conditions precisely because no human is ever perfect -- even ones who can operate a manual transmission as precisely as possible in a given situation -- and no human has the physical ability to manipulate as many factors as a modern auto transmission can to enable that precision. The best example of a manifestation of this is an F1 car.

That said, there is a place for a manual in certain types of driving that take advantage of drivetrain manipulation: drifting or rally racing, to name two. But on a road car, to go as fast as possible? No. Not anymore.

Originally Posted by Beartato

So using that logic, instead of actually playing piano live one should program the music into FL Studio and play it that way, as to not make any mistakes.

Which is precisely one of several reasons why so many live acts use backtracking during performances. Again: thank you for proving my point.

[F1HAMMY]

My recent order of a 2017 230 with M-Sport, THP, Heated Seats and Harmon Kardon is a manual. I didn't consider the ZF Auto and can't take seriously a supposed "enthusiast" who would. I've lived and driven in some of the worlds most traffic congested cities [Dallas/Houston/Seoul and would still never consider an auto. To each their own....

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by F1HAMMY

My recent order of a 2017 230 with M-Sport, THP, Heated Seats and Harmon Kardon is a manual. I didn't consider the ZF Auto and can't take seriously a supposed "enthusiast" who would. I've lived and driven in some of the worlds most traffic congested cities [Dallas/Houston/Seoul and would still never consider an auto. To each their own....

Indeed ...

... but, noting that you're at Fort Riley (and before you flame me as anti-military: my father was an executive for AAFES, so I grew up around it), answer this:

Would you rather have a fully automatic rifle on the battlefield, or a bolt-action one?

:: drops mic ::

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

Would you rather have a fully automatic rifle on the battlefield, or a bolt-action one?

:: drops mic ::

As with changing gears, if you are skilled, you only need to fire off one at a time, and not look around trying to find the kill shot.



Eh, the analogy wasn't really apt, but coming up with a response was entertaining

[ZMMZTR]

I guess I have a different perspective on this than some of you. I’m a born and bred three pedal enthusiast whose personal and professional life revolves around cars. I grew up with the mindset that if you have a performance oriented vehicle with an automatic transmission, you’re a poser, pure and simple. Automatics sucked, and anyone that didn’t realize that clearly didn’t know cars.

From high school through to my post-college years, I took great pride in the fact that no one could drive my Fox Mustang without killing it. Today, my E30 track rat is obviously a manual. My 228? Two pedals, two paddles. In the 15 months I’ve owned it, I’ve put maybe, *maybe* 15 miles on it in “D”. It’s an automatic whenever my wife drives it, but for me, there’s no loss of control. I find it every bit as engaging so long as I keep it in Sport+ where there’s no chance of kickdown.

When I’m driving in a parking lot, it has that same feeling of tightness as a manual. When I’m approaching a red light, I downshift just the same. When I’m out having fun, guess what? I shift at the same places I would otherwise.

There are other advantages as well. I keep both hands at 9 & 3 nearly 100% of the time and I’m a very vocal supporter of left foot braking on the street. Simply put, the *disadvantages* of the old slushbox era aren’t present in the ZF and some of the other higher end automatics.

The bad autos? Yeah, they still suck.

But what happened to the good manuals? This is what no one likes to consider. I was once fortunate enough to drive every generation of Corvette, back to back, and it really shed light on how different the visceral experience of driving a manual is today. I challenge anyone here to drive something fun from the 60s, 70s, or 80s, and not come away with an appreciation for how the mechanicals talk to you in a language of vibrations and sounds. For the vast majority of manuals today, including BMWs, that language is muted by fleets of NVH engineers doing their job: Make the car better suited to a wide variety of tastes.

Simply put, even the majority of manual transmission owners want an experience that’s smooth and refined. To them, and I can only assume to many of you as well, it represents an enjoyable experience. I'm legitimately happy that you're able to enjoy it because it means more pro-car people on the road. To me, though, it transforms a manual transmission into a watered down shadow of its former glory.

I’ve spoken with engineers that were responsible for transmission decisions of several of the manual cars mentioned in this thread. I even asked one straight up “If this is a performance car, and you have an automatic that's faster, why is one not even offered?” The response was an unsurprising “It’s what the customer expected.”

This is getting far too long, so I’ll close on a question. For those of you who have had this generation of ZF automatic and didn’t find it engaging, how many of you use the paddles for literally every single shift? How many of you took the time to adapt your muscle memory to work with the paddles on an unconscious level, like your left foot and right arm do after so many manual shifts? I’m legitimately curious about the answer here, because I’d love to find someone that takes their driving so seriously that they’ve done exactly that…and still didn’t like it.

[Dylan86]

^^ I don't own a ZF, but I drive my DSG GTI in the same fashion you mentioned and I feel like the dual clutch in that car is a better fit for the power and fwd powertrain. I also feel like there's no loss of control, with these type of "sport" oriented auto transmissions.

I love MT in my 235, but if it was a true daily driver I'd probably opt for the ZF8spd. Can't go wrong with either!

[Lucky13]

The only thing keeping me from ordering a 228/230 convertible is the fact that no manual is available so I'll keep my M235 manual when the lease runs out.

[supernova72]

Maybe I'm an old school 3 pedal guy. My last 6 DD's have been manual cars. Several of those being the GM F-body cars.

1984 Z28 5.0 HO 5MT
1985 Trans Am 5.0 HO 5MT
1996 Z28 LT1 6MT
1998 E36 M3 5MT
2004 E46 M3 6MT
2014 M235i 6MT

I drive in pretty heavy commute traffic in Seattle WA (3rd worst in the USA) so at times I wonder why I don't switch to a modern day 8speed auto or the like? I'm not 25 either so been rowing them for quite some time (35 yrs). Call me weird..

[XutvJet]

I watched the latest two Top Gears last night. During Chris Harris' review of the M2 he said the following: "A DCT is available if you want it......but you shouldn't."

The best though was Matt LaBlanc's review of the 911R which only comes in a manual. His whole discussion about the manual creating a driver connection is so true and that yes, the PDK is quicker/faster, but the driving experience is largely lost when you don't get to make the decisions and mistakes. It was perfect.

[Xiaoxi]

Originally Posted by ZMMZTR

This is getting far too long, so I’ll close on a question. For those of you who have had this generation of ZF automatic and didn’t find it engaging, how many of you use the paddles for literally every single shift? How many of you took the time to adapt your muscle memory to work with the paddles on an unconscious level, like your left foot and right arm do after so many manual shifts? I’m legitimately curious about the answer here, because I’d love to find someone that takes their driving so seriously that they’ve done exactly that…and still didn’t like it.

My last F30 was the 8ZF. Granted, no paddles, but I did have a paddled F30 GT loaner during a service.

I found the paddles to be incredibly annoying and unusable for the street. Sequential shifting is just not rewarding or engaging from stoplight to stoplight.

Of course, they come alive on the track. But I'm not on the track...

[RPM90]

I switched to the new ZF 8spd AT when I got my F30 335i.
After reading about how ZF developed this torque converter AT and the unique things they did, I wanted to try it.

AT's like the ZF sport AT are amazing and I like it a lot.
As an AT compared to other AT's I LOVE it. Compared to MT I like it, but it's not a replacement for how a MT works and how a driver works the MT.
AS great as this ZF AT is it is NOT a replacement for an MT.

I have decided to stay with AT as I have a lower back issue that was getting worse by driving MT that requires using the leg to operate the clutch. The slight motion and slight pivot was making my condition worse. My lower back feels a LOT better since I don't drive a MT car.
But man I DO MISS IT!

I had an idea a couple of years back for how to implement automatic trans that would have greater appeal to MT like myself.
The one thing I miss is the added interaction of moving the shift lever to it's various gear gates and how that ties in with the clutch to give a sense of instant gear selection.
Technically the ZF AT shifts gears faster than I can.
And, I can put it in almost and nearly any gear I want it to be in, but I have to do it either with the paddles or repeating the same motions on the drive select lever. That is NOTHING like how a gear is selected with a manual trans gear shift lever.

I would like to see an AT that uses a shift mechanism that is just like a manual shift lever. IOW, paddles are NOT like it at all.
Create a drive gear shift lever just like a manual has.
So, the lever would have a "shift" pattern and gear "gates" just like a manual trans has. However, since we are not actually moving a shift fork we can still have the motion and feel as if we were selecting a specific gear and gate.

For example, now if I want to go into "D-drive" I click the lever back a couple of times and select D. To go to manual mode I move the lever over to the left to put the auto trans in "manual" mode. It starts in 1st gear. To shift up I pull the lever back, and repeat this exact same boring pattern.
If I am in 6th gear and I want 3rd I have to move the lever forward 3 times and hope the computer registered my motions, and then I get 3rd.
If I am in 5th gear and want 3rd, again, tap forward 2 times and hope it's in gear.

With a real manual trans gear lever the driver knows which gate each gear is in, and thus we simply move the lever into the gear/gate we want and reapply the clutch and there it is. It may require a rev match, but these days that automated even with a dual clutch AT.

Now, if the AT had a gated gear select lever, then we have a gate for 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc....
So, lets say that to come out of P-park and into 1st, we simply move the lever from it's center Park position and move it left and up into 1st gear/gate. Then, to shift up we move the lever back/down to the 2nd gear gate, 3rd we move the lever up a bit right into it's gate, and so on, etc., just like we would with a manual.

Now, here's a really cool part. Let's say you are in 6th gear/gate and you want 3rd, you simply move the lever out of 6th and into the 3rd gear/gate letting the AT's computer do it's thing as it does right now.
The cool thing now is that you know which gear you selected because you actually put it in that gears gate rather than guessing or trying to remember how many forward clicks it takes to get to that gear.

Granted there are 8 gears in the AT, that's not a big deal because the gates can be a bit tighter because there isn't any danger of engaging the wrong gear and doing a "money shift". This is after all a computer controlled AT.

To put the trans in neutral you simply move it to the center just like with a manual. To put it in Park, it could be just like it is now, push the button at the top labelled "P". Reverse? Back down to the left, "R" shown on the gear display. Want full "auto" mode? Put the lever into 1st gear and push the "A" button.

Why do this?
I just think it would add some fun back into the auto trans operation.
The way it is now it's repetitive and boring, and I especially don't like that I can't directly select the gear/gate I want.
The system can still have paddles for those who want it, or my idea could be an optional item. I would gladly select it over paddles, because I rarely use the paddles I now have. I use the lever about 98% of the time.

BMW, if you like my idea let's work it out and do some testing.
It would be really cool, or at least we can test it to determine if it would be cool. And you can be the first to offer it.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by ZMMZTR

Simply put, even the majority of manual transmission owners want an experience that’s smooth and refined. To them, and I can only assume to many of you as well, it represents an enjoyable experience. I'm legitimately happy that you're able to enjoy it because it means more pro-car people on the road. To me, though, it transforms a manual transmission into a watered down shadow of its former glory.

I’ve spoken with engineers that were responsible for transmission decisions of several of the manual cars mentioned in this thread. I even asked one straight up “If this is a performance car, and you have an automatic that's faster, why is one not even offered?” The response was an unsurprising “It’s what the customer expected.”

This is getting far too long, so I’ll close on a question. For those of you who have had this generation of ZF automatic and didn’t find it engaging, how many of you use the paddles for literally every single shift? How many of you took the time to adapt your muscle memory to work with the paddles on an unconscious level, like your left foot and right arm do after so many manual shifts? I’m legitimately curious about the answer here, because I’d love to find someone that takes their driving so seriously that they’ve done exactly that…and still didn’t like it.

I think you would like the idea I purpose about an actual gated/gear shifter control for the auto trans.
It would add some fun to the manual mode, keep the auto mode, and even allow better control over gear selection especially on down-shifts as you would know exactly which gear you selected because you would put the lever in that gears gate.

[F1HAMMY]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

Indeed ...

... but, noting that you're at Fort Riley (and before you flame me as anti-military: my father was an executive for AAFES, so I grew up around it), answer this:

Would you rather have a fully automatic rifle on the battlefield, or a bolt-action one?

:: drops mic ::

You should pic the mic back up cause that's not remotely relatable to the discussion.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by RPM90

I think you would like the idea I purpose about an actual gated/gear shifter control for the auto trans.
It would add some fun to the manual mode, keep the auto mode, and even allow better control over gear selection especially on down-shifts as you would know exactly which gear you selected because you would put the lever in that gears gate.

Still missing a pedal....leaves you with one unused limb.

[Vortexginge]

Viva La Manual!

Driving for pleasure is really all about exciting those senses(sight,sound,smell,touch etc) with as much cool input as possible.
So what happens in a few years time when autonomous cars take over and they can drive from say a to b quicker?
Does that make it more pleasurable? If your a roller coaster junkie then maybe ?
Progress is great but some things are not made better by taking the physical work or connection away or by being more efficient.
Sex is also one of those things that doesn't need an auto tranny

[Beartato]

Originally Posted by ginge235

Sex is also one of those things that doesn't need an auto tranny

[thebmw]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

But progress is progress.

Some say that social media is progress. Maybe it is, but studies have shown that there is a direct correlation between increased Facebook use and depression. In addition, social skills are all but gone, especially in the Millennial generation. If that is progress, then that is sad.

As a musician and an enthusiast, I am shocked that you think that a computer playing the music and shifting gears is considered "progress" when the discussion is engagement and interaction.

The progress you speak of is a dumbing down of drivers and a sterilization of the driving experience. I will keep my mechanical instruments (and cars), perfect my skill, and enjoy it the entire time. Oh, and I will retain my skills of social interactions as well

[thebmw]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

The best though was Matt LaBlanc's review of the 911R which only comes in a manual. His whole discussion about the manual creating a driver connection is so true and that yes, the PDK is quicker/faster, but the driving experience is largely lost when you don't get to make the decisions and mistakes. It was perfect.

Yes. He actually stated the case very eloquently. If anyone should have "dropped the mic", it should have been LaBlanc.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by thebmw

Some say that social media is progress. Maybe it is, but studies have shown that there is a direct correlation between increased Facebook use and depression. In addition, social skills are all but gone, especially in the Millennial generation. If that is progress, then that is sad.

As a musician and an enthusiast, I am shocked that you think that a computer playing the music and shifting gears is considered "progress" when the discussion is engagement and interaction.

The progress you speak of is a dumbing down of drivers and a sterilization of the driving experience. I will keep my mechanical instruments (and cars), perfect my skill, and enjoy it the entire time. Oh, and I will retain my skills of social interactions as well

Point 1: Not sure what the point of the social media paragraph is ... but I hardly use Facebook, so there's that ...

Point 2: I don't think computer backtracking is progress musically. But it is used, frequently, by music acts who can't reproduce sounds on stage live ... as well as to cover for a myriad of situations, from blown amps and broken strings to drugged-up performers. (Ask me how I know ... ) Simply put, it enables the overly complex for those who can't execute it, time and time again on a regular basis, every time. A good auto transmission does this as well. That is progress.