[crbalch]

Coming from a RWD 135i, I can tell you that a good set of snows/weight in the back goes a long way in these cars. Unfortunately for me (and I am assuming many others), I simply don't have a place to store 4 tires year round anymore. I live in Chicago, so weather certainly gets bad around here, which is why this time I opted for the AWD even though I may suffer some in certain departments (although I probably won't notice much).

I am also coming from a 6MT, and even though I cannot get that on the xDrive, I was perfectly content. For the amount of traffic in this area, the manual makes driving very tiresome. I cannot wait to just relax a bit more and not have to constantly worry about making perfect shifts (awful CDV valve), etc. That is why I bought a motorcycle so I can still scratch that itch if I want.

[Ello]

You know what I'm actually going to do, after reading everyone's posts, is I'm going to keep my AWD M235xi through this winter... and I'm going to put a note pad on the visor.

Every day that it snows so much in Vermont that I'm glad I've got AWD, I'll put a checkbox on the notepad.

If I have 15 or less checks at the end of the season, then in the Spring I'm going to trade it in for a manual M235i. Or maybe an M2.

15 or more checks, I keep the AWD.

Or something like that. I may just get impatient when the M2 comes out in a few weeks. Looks so amazing!

[Transfer]

To me, the AWD is just as much or more about the rain and constantly wet roads here in Seattle as it is about the possibility of snow. Imagine your road surface is wet 70% of the year. AWD makes a lot of sense and keeps me from just spinning tires all the time if I want to get a bit frisky.

[E90 87ss]

I have an XI and I almost didn't get it because of it... I still really enjoy the car especially in less than stellar weather and because it can lay down power without going sideways. However, I also enjoy going sideways and a little over steer. I think both are great, but I will go back to rwd simply because I enjoy it more. Nothing wrong with XI or AWD... Just personal preference.

[merlin3008]

I travel a lot, often for a week or ten days at a time. Around here, you often don't get a ton of warning about potential snow. Knowing that I have awd and I'm that much less likely to get stranded at JFK adds a lot more piece of mind to me.

[shark715]

Originally Posted by Transfer

To me, the AWD is just as much or more about the rain and constantly wet roads here in Seattle as it is about the possibility of snow. Imagine your road surface is wet 70% of the year. AWD makes a lot of sense and keeps me from just spinning tires all the time if I want to get a bit frisky.

It's handy on dry roads for the same reason :-)

[crbalch]

Originally Posted by Ello

You know what I'm actually going to do, after reading everyone's posts, is I'm going to keep my AWD M235xi through this winter... and I'm going to put a note pad on the visor.

Every day that it snows so much in Vermont that I'm glad I've got AWD, I'll put a checkbox on the notepad.

If I have 15 or less checks at the end of the season, then in the Spring I'm going to trade it in for a manual M235i. Or maybe an M2.

15 or more checks, I keep the AWD.

Or something like that. I may just get impatient when the M2 comes out in a few weeks. Looks so amazing!

Being from Vermont originally (and having my RWD 135 there multiple times) I can tell you that RWD is not fun in the snow. Its less about the physical snow (does pretty well with a good set of snows) but more about the snow covered hills. My house is on top of a hill that is just not happening with RWD.

Now, I live in Chicago, but even with it being totally flat here, its nice to know that I won't need to worry. I have gotten stuck at stoplights and stop signs, not been able to accelerate on the highway without the backend coming out, etc.

[Ello]

Thanks crbalch, that's good feedback from experience. I do use it on hills.

[Larry7995]

I try to get the old pickup out when its snowy, just for the multiple idiots on the road, but I don't know how many times I have been out in the WRX and all of a sudden there are 1-4 inches of snow on the road, so I opted for the X drive, I was tired of shifting in rush hour traffic anyway. I don't have enough spaces in the garage for a garage queen in winter! Well maybe but only if its a Z06...

[Kayevman]

Originally Posted by shark715

Based on my experience today, I would say the X drive is close to invisible (except for the extra traction during hard acceleration, and of course, for winter traction) until you are driving the car at or close to the limit, and then, yeah, the RWD is going to be the more entertaining drive. Not really surprising assuming what the dealer said is true (that it's heavily biased toward rear wheel drive). I was also expecting (not really sure why) the xdrive's ride to be a bit more stiff, but I can't say I could detect any difference whatsoever.

I live in the Dallas area. It doesn't snow enough to ever switch from summer tires. We get a couple of severe ice storms every winter. Of course AWD does not improve breaking, but my M235i X Drive consistently kept its direction decreasing the steering and breaking corrections I had to make. My drive way is steep and when the rear wheels began to spin, the front wheels clawed their way up and into my garage--it was obvious the front was pulling. I'd sy the same about better control in the rain. Whether it's worth it to have AWD is a personal choice, but it's undeniable that there are circumstances in which it adds stability, especially in unpredictable circumstances in which you can't get out and change the tires.

[BMW335iOn18s]

Xdrive corrupts steering feel, makes the car more prone to under steer and adds weight. Not to mention on all other models excluding the M235i, the Xdrive suspension is soft and sits an inch higher. If you ask me, you'd be making a huge mistake to get an Xdrive BMW if you're an enthusiast. But hey, it's your money and your choice. Also, if people stop buying the manuals, before you know it, they'll be gone.

[German1967]

Everybody's choice. Different to the E90, suspension is not compromised on the M235 with xDrive. Rest is personal choice. As a daily driver in a winter state I appreciate xDrive. Others may choose different. Be happy.

[Ello]

Originally Posted by BMW335iOn18s

Xdrive corrupts steering feel, makes the car more prone to under steer and adds weight. Not to mention on all other models excluding the M235i, the Xdrive suspension is soft and sits an inch higher. If you ask me, you'd be making a huge mistake to get an Xdrive BMW if you're an enthusiast. But hey, it's your money and your choice. Also, if people stop buying the manuals, before you know it, they'll be gone.

Actually, the suspension on the M235xi is identical to the RWD version and sits at an identical height. Your info is from the old 3-series.

[BMW335iOn18s]

Originally Posted by Ello

Actually, the suspension on the M235xi is identical to the RWD version and sits at an identical height. Your info is from the old 3-series.

Did you read what I wrote? I excluded the M235i. And the F30 isn't the "old" 3 series. It still remains true for many models. Just not the m235i.

[RWDdrifter]

Originally Posted by crbalch

Being from Vermont originally (and having my RWD 135 there multiple times) I can tell you that RWD is not fun in the snow. Its less about the physical snow (does pretty well with a good set of snows) but more about the snow covered hills. My house is on top of a hill that is just not happening with RWD.

Now, I live in Chicago, but even with it being totally flat here, its nice to know that I won't need to worry. I have gotten stuck at stoplights and stop signs, not been able to accelerate on the highway without the backend coming out, etc.

I'm a big fan of RWD but if I still lived up north I too would probably choose AWD - albeit reluctantly.

RWD handles better IMO, and weighs about 3-4% less, but on snowy/icy days AWD can certainly help. I've always owned RWD cars but my previous house like yours was on a hill. Sometimes I barely drove off the street and onto the driveway.

AWD can give some well founded peace of mind, mainly in helping the car get moving. However, for those in hilly areas (unlike Chicago) it doesn't help address the biggest challenge: negotiating a downhill curve on an icy road.

Here in Austin, where the ground barely freezes, I'd say there is little reason to choose AWD. The main risk here in the winter is other drivers. On one morning when there was some light ice on the roads there were more than 800 collisions!

[shark715]

Originally Posted by BMW335iOn18s

Xdrive corrupts steering feel, makes the car more prone to under steer and adds weight.

I've driven the 235 with and without xdrive back to back quite aggressively on three occasions without a salesperson in the car. No question you can feel the weight and the understeer...but you have to be driving at 9/10th's or 10/10th's before you notice, and even then it's not dramatic at all. I think few drivers would notice the difference, and only then during aggressive maneuvers.

I respectfully question your claim that xdrive affects steering feel, at least on the 235. I noticed absolutely no difference whatsoever, and I don't recall any 235 xdrive reviews (I think I've read just about all of them) making such a comment. Why would xdrive change steering feel? That makes no sense.

Of course if being able to have some fun drifting and kicking out the back of the car is a high priority, you are not going to be ordering xdrive.

[pikcachu]

Originally Posted by Ello

Actually, the suspension on the M235xi is identical to the RWD version and sits at an identical height. Your info is from the old 3-series.

No not really....

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/show...diagId=31_0993
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/show...diagId=31_1098

You can see there they are far from identical...although both sit at the same height....
For example you can't use the M4 lower control arms on the Xdrive version for more camber...

Haven't driven an M235x so don't know if it's better or worse...

[BMW335iOn18s]

Originally Posted by pikcachu

No not really....

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/show...diagId=31_0993
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/show...diagId=31_1098

You can see there they are far from identical...although both sit at the same height....

For example you can't use the M4 lower control arms on the Xdrive version for more camber...

Glad we have pika to back my claims up - I knew there was no way Xdrive and rwd would be identical upfront. I bet even the steering system is different.

[BMW335iOn18s]

Originally Posted by shark715

I've driven the 235 with and without xdrive back to back quite aggressively on three occasions without a salesperson in the car. No question you can feel the weight and the understeer...but you have to be driving at 9/10th's or 10/10th's before you notice, and even then it's not dramatic at all. I think few drivers would notice the difference, and only then during aggressive maneuvers.

I respectfully question your claim that xdrive affects steering feel, at least on the 235. I noticed absolutely no difference whatsoever, and I don't recall any 235 xdrive reviews (I think I've read just about all of them) making such a comment. Why would xdrive change steering feel? That makes no sense.

Of course if being able to have some fun drifting and kicking out the back of the car is a high priority, you are not going to be ordering xdrive.

When the front wheels have to put the power down too, the feedback is masked by the fact that you now have the front wheels accelerating and steering as opposed to just steering. You will feel absolutely nothing through the wheel. I have many years of experience of driving e90/e92/f30 loaners (all xdrive) and I can tell you that they drive nothing like their rwd counterparts. They ride taller, less refined, and all have no feedback. This includes the e9x generation. My old m sport 335i rwd was in a different league compared to the loaners I had. Oh and this debate goes back to the e46 days. I had a 330ci at the same time my friend had a 330xi. We used to trade cars all the time...even he agreed my car was way sportier had a lot more feel, and he demonstrated this by stopping both cars. Then turning the steering wheel all the way to the right or left. Then, accelerating. My 330ci steering rack would straighten out, where as the 330xi would remain fully locked. Xdrive cars are very very different.

Excuse me for my elitist tone, but Xdrive has always been and will always be a byproduct of American ideology that you need to have something every day even if you only use it once. In most urban and suburban areas, streets are salted and plowed. There is absolutely no need for an awd car (though it may be nice). It's kind of like how people buy cars that they use only several times a year to tow with. It's just a huge waste to sacrifice something every day of the year for the 1 or 2 days you might need it. How did people survive all these years without AWD? It's not that awd is bad, but it's not the purists or enthusiasts choice when buying a BMW. It's there for the paranoid people who don't know any better. If you're buying an m235i because you want the classic BMW driving qualities, you're straying from them by getting Xdrive. Plain and simple.

The reason I'm so annoyed with Xdrive is because other than in the southern states, dealers only stock Xdrive cars. No matter whether it's a 2,3,4,5,6,7 series, rwd is nearly a thing of the past. So if I want to test drive a car before I buy it, it's almost impossible because enthusiasts are 0.001% of the buying public. It's the same with manual transmissions. Years ago, they used to pop up here and there, but not they're pretty much order only. If you do find one, it's probably an ordered car that the potential buyer ended up backing out of. It's really tough to find a proper non-M BMW on the dealer lots. I wish it wasn't the case. After the manuals disappear, rwd will probably be next.

[mc3456]

Originally Posted by Ello

Hey all. I bought the XDrive and it's wonderful... Been driving it all summer. Everything about this car is just about perfect but...

But I really miss manual transmission.

Even though I'm here in Vermont, I'm seriously considering trading my M235xi XDrive in for an identical M235i RWD just because there's nothing like a manual in a little car like this!

There's a video online with an M4 doing a toe pull with an AWD Toyota truck in snow and ice, both in snow tires. The Toyota wins. Barely.

Check it out:

The guys are kind of tools, but it's pretty convincing that RWD and snow tires grip. Of course, M4 has LSD.

What do you think? Am I crazy?

It is snowy as hell here, with hills. And mud. And rain!

Which come to think of it, sounds kinda fun in a RWD manual.

If you want a more engaging but slower car, by all means, trade for a RWD, but if you want a car with better grip and all around versatility, stick with the X-drive.

[shark715]

Originally Posted by BMW335iOn18s

When the front wheels have to put the power down too, the feedback is masked by the fact that you now have the front wheels accelerating and steering as opposed to just steering. You will feel absolutely nothing through the wheel. I have many years of experience of driving e90/e92/f30 loaners (all xdrive) and I can tell you that they drive nothing like their rwd counterparts. They ride taller, less refined, and all have no feedback. This includes the e9x generation. My old m sport 335i rwd was in a different league compared to the loaners I had. Oh and this debate goes back to the e46 days. I had a 330ci at the same time my friend had a 330xi. We used to trade cars all the time...even he agreed my car was way sportier had a lot more feel, and he demonstrated this by stopping both cars. Then turning the steering wheel all the way to the right or left. Then, accelerating. My 330ci steering rack would straighten out, where as the 330xi would remain fully locked. Xdrive cars are very very different.

Excuse me for my elitist tone, but Xdrive has always been and will always be a byproduct of American ideology that you need to have something every day even if you only use it once. In most urban and suburban areas, streets are salted and plowed. There is absolutely no need for an awd car (though it may be nice). It's kind of like how people buy cars that they use only several times a year to tow with. It's just a huge waste to sacrifice something every day of the year for the 1 or 2 days you might need it. How did people survive all these years without AWD? It's not that awd is bad, but it's not the purists or enthusiasts choice when buying a BMW. It's there for the paranoid people who don't know any better. If you're buying an m235i because you want the classic BMW driving qualities, you're straying from them by getting Xdrive. Plain and simple.

The reason I'm so annoyed with Xdrive is because other than in the southern states, dealers only stock Xdrive cars. No matter whether it's a 2,3,4,5,6,7 series, rwd is nearly a thing of the past. So if I want to test drive a car before I buy it, it's almost impossible because enthusiasts are 0.001% of the buying public. It's the same with manual transmissions. Years ago, they used to pop up here and there, but not they're pretty much order only. If you do find one, it's probably an ordered car that the potential buyer ended up backing out of. It's really tough to find a proper non-M BMW on the dealer lots. I wish it wasn't the case. After the manuals disappear, rwd will probably be next.

Currently owning a Porsche 996 and SLK55, as well as a Lotus Elise in the past, hopefully I pass the smell test for being an enthusiast even though my opinions don't quite align with yours.

Think about how often and under what conditions torque that is material enough to change the feel of the car is sent to the front axle on a 2 series xdrive, and you will begin to understand my test drive observations. Believe me, I'm well aware of all the xdrive debates of the past, but I'm not at all sure how that is relevant to this discussion. Go drive an xdrive 2 series and you might be as surprised as I was. And if you are not, that's cool too as I fully subscribe to "to each his own".

One of your comments I strongly disagree with is that "there is no need for a AWD car". Perhaps that's the case for you, but there are plenty of us who will in fact have a recurring predictable need for AWD, even when we have dedicated winter tires.

I'm also one of those enthusiasts who will probably never again purchase a manual shift car. Can't believe I'm saying this (and I have plenty of friends who will ridicule me, so I don't need more of it), but after driving the Porsche dual clutch and the 8 speed slushbox in the 2 series, I'm a believer. I'm loving the snappy shifts in manual mode, feel that I can control the car just as well as with a stick, the faster acceleration, and have no complaints about the better gas mileage.

Times they are a changin....

[BMW335iOn18s]

Originally Posted by shark715

Currently owning a Porsche 996 and SLK55, as well as a Lotus Elise in the past, hopefully I pass the smell test for being an enthusiast even though my opinions don't quite align with yours.

Think about how often and under what conditions torque that is material enough to change the feel of the car is sent to the front axle on a 2 series xdrive, and you will begin to understand my test drive observations. Believe me, I'm well aware of all the xdrive debates of the past, but I'm not at all sure how that is relevant to this discussion. Go drive an xdrive 2 series and you might be as surprised as I was. And if you are not, that's cool too as I fully subscribe to "to each his own".

One of your comments I strongly disagree with is that "there is no need for a AWD car". Perhaps that's the case for you, but there are plenty of us who will in fact have a recurring predictable need for AWD, even when we have dedicated winter tires.

I'm also one of those enthusiasts who will probably never again purchase a manual shift car. Can't believe I'm saying this (and I have plenty of friends who will ridicule me, so I don't need more of it), but after driving the Porsche dual clutch and the 8 speed slushbox in the 2 series, I'm a believer. I'm loving the snappy shifts in manual mode, feel that I can control the car just as well as with a stick, the faster acceleration, and have no complaints about the better gas mileage.

Times they are a changin....

I guess I can't appreciate autos and DCTs on the same level because unfortunately I don't have any track experience yet. However, I will say that when I'm commuting every morning or going for a spirited drive on some back roads, there's nothing like the sensory experience of engaging the clutch precisely and engaging the notchy shift lever simultaneously. This might sound cheesy but it's almost like having a dance partner to lead or telling someone "step to the right and turn around." Even if I'm far from the fastest to 60 or around a track, I'm having more fun going slowly about my commute than I would be with the automatic. To summarize: to have fun in an automatic sports car, you have to driving fast - to have fun in a manual car, you could be stuck in traffic. Call me crazy but I actually ENJOY driving stick. Even in traffic. Even those 1-2 shifts at low speed in parking lots. I enjoy it 100% of the time.