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      12-05-2017, 11:54 AM   #67
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One point that has not been raised here is value. The base 230 is undoubtedly the best value. Adding options is never a good move in terms of value, because they add little or nothing to the resale value, if you own the car, and you pay for them over the term of the lease, if you lease. A loaded 230 brings you up close to a base 240, but with much greater depreciation. By that logic, a more or less base 240 is also a good value, as is an M2, since there are few if any options to be had.
I keep cars as long as I can, so I want a car that I enjoy. The first BMW I ever owned was a stripper 325 that I picked up at the factory. I drove it and loved it for a dozen years. During that period, we had a 5 and a few other 3s, none of them nearly as good. I ordered a 235 when the 325 went into serious decline, with a few more bells and whistles (I had grown a dozen years older) and the ZFAT, because it was so good. I love this car and hope to own it for as long as I owned the 3, if they still let me drive in ten years.
Let's agree to not argue over which car is better. If you want to argue value for money, that is a different story.
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      12-05-2017, 01:33 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by morphomeman View Post
The first BMW I ever owned was a stripper 325 that I picked up at the factory. I drove it and loved it for a dozen years.
My first BMW was a 2001 330i 5MT I custom-ordered. I loved driving that car for 15 years. Everything about it just feels right. But eventually the time and $$ I spent on upkeep got too much and I got my M235i. I still miss that E46 sometimes, even though the M235i is a better car in almost every objective metric.
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      12-05-2017, 01:44 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3rdcoast228i View Post
M2 is a better car, period.
And it is. period.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3rdcoast228i View Post
Honestly I never see people saying the 230i is better.
There are a lot of people saying the 240i is not better.

Look, the 2-series is a performance car. As such, performance metrics is important. Numbers do matter. If you go shopping for a minivan and the lower trim has seating for 5 while a higher trim has seating for 7, all else being equal, are you going to say the higher trim is not better? From what I see in this thread, there are indeed people who will claim that the higher trim is not better because they don't need to seat 7. But objectively, the higher trim is better.

Similarly, the M240i will beat the 230i on most numbers that matter to people who buy performance vehicles. That makes it the objective better car.

On the other hand, as a performance car, the intangibles matter too. If it were all about numbers, I would have opted for the auto tranny over the manual, because the AT is now objectively better than the MT. But I like the feel of the manual. So I would understand if people say the M240i is the better car, but the 230i feels better to them.
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      12-05-2017, 02:01 PM   #70
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And there's nothing wrong with the underdog car, guys! There's nothing better than "outperforming" the "higher-performing" car, simply with a driver mod.

I decided to venture with the F22, rather than "stepping up" to an F87. Not only would it increase my upfront ownership cost by $30k, I would still desire a proper track setup out of the M2, so add another $10-15k on top of vehicle price. All to be (potentially) "faster/better" by a very small margin? No thanks, it's not worth the hype, IMO.

"Better" isn't ever a fair statement, because our perceptions of "better" are in most cases, quite different. What is better to me, may be a negative to the next guy.

The beauty of this is, we can do whatever the hell we want, it's beautiful! I'll never let anyone try to convince me of my convictions on this matter, either.
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      12-05-2017, 02:14 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Y0tsuya View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3rdcoast228i View Post
M2 is a better car, period.
And it is. period.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3rdcoast228i View Post
Honestly I never see people saying the 230i is better.
There are a lot of people saying the 240i is not better.

Look, the 2-series is a performance car. As such, performance metrics is important. Numbers do matter. If you go shopping for a minivan and the lower trim has seating for 5 while a higher trim has seating for 7, all else being equal, are you going to say the higher trim is not better? From what I see in this thread, there are indeed people who will claim that the higher trim is not better because they don't need to seat 7. But objectively, the higher trim is better.

Similarly, the M240i will beat the 230i on most numbers that matter to people who buy performance vehicles. That makes it the objective better car.

On the other hand, as a performance car, the intangibles matter too. If it were all about numbers, I would have opted for the auto tranny over the manual, because the AT is now objectively better than the MT. But I like the feel of the manual. So I would understand if people say the M240i is the better car, but the 230i feels better to them.
Sorry but this argument is just misguided and logically flawed. "Bigger" and "faster" simply imply MORE, they do not imply BETTER. I drove a 6-Series a little while ago and was relieved to get back into my 2. The 6 was a "better" car by the standard you are applying but it was a boat and the 2 is the hands-down the better car despite being slower, smaller and cheaper. There is absolutely no truth in determining value by reference only to data. If there were, I could state without fear of contradiction that a Dodge Viper is a better car than a Lotus Exige as they are both impractical, two/seat performance cars that cost about the same but the Dodge has a higher top speed and more power. Judgement and experience are what counts in assigning value, not the MSRP sticker in a car showroom.
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      12-05-2017, 02:17 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylan86 View Post
And there's nothing wrong with the underdog car, guys! There's nothing better than "outperforming" the "higher-performing" car, simply with a driver mod.
Meth, JB4 and a turbo swap and you'll wreck an M4 GTS in a straight line (if you have xdrive at least) for under 5k. And when the inevitable flash tunes come out it'll be a 10 second sleeper


I'd love the fat fenders, wheels, suspension and steering of the M2 though. Wish it was cheaper to swap those out with the 240
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      12-05-2017, 02:25 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BarryJI View Post
Sorry but this argument is just misguided and logically flawed. "Bigger" and "faster" simply imply MORE, they do not imply BETTER. I drove a 6-Series a little while ago and was relieved to get back into my 2. The 6 was a "better" car by the standard you are applying but it was a boat and the 2 is the hands-down the better car despite being slower, smaller and cheaper. There is absolutely no truth in determining value by reference only to data. If there were, I could state without fear of contradiction that a Dodge Viper is a better car than a Lotus Exige as they are both impractical, two/seat performance cars that cost about the same but the Dodge has a higher top speed and more power. Judgement and experience are what counts in assigning value, not the MSRP sticker in a car showroom.
Lol we're comparing trims within a model line and you're comparing different cars. Who's being misguided and logically flawed again?
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      12-05-2017, 02:27 PM   #74
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Trims and model line? No. "Performance", measured in HP and top speed appears to be the arbiter of quality.
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      12-05-2017, 02:34 PM   #75
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Quote:
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Trims and model line? No. "Performance", measured in HP and top speed appears to be the arbiter of quality.
All else being equal, it''s the arbiter of performance. Which is why we're interested in the implication of bolting different engines onto the same chassis.
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      12-05-2017, 02:40 PM   #76
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BarryJI View Post
Trims and model line? No. "Performance", measured in HP and top speed appears to be the arbiter of quality.
All else being equal, it''s the arbiter of performance. Which is why we're interested in the implication of bolting different engines onto the same chassis.
But all else is not equal. The driving dynamics are different.
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      12-05-2017, 02:55 PM   #77
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Quote:
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But all else is not equal. The driving dynamics are different.
I made a point about that too.
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      12-05-2017, 03:02 PM   #78
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I can tell you ladies one thing , I sold 06 S2000, 2800lbs weight, 240hp, front-mid engine layout, LSD, 255s in the back, high rev amazing i4, worlds best 6-speed.....all the good stuff. Any 2-series including M2 is a plastic toy compared to S2k but I bought M235i because 240hp even with that 28000 weight wasn't that exciting after 5 years of daily driving
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      12-05-2017, 03:23 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolyan2k View Post
I can tell you ladies one thing , I sold 06 S2000, 2800lbs weight, 240hp, front-mid engine layout, LSD, 255s in the back, high rev amazing i4, worlds best 6-speed.....all the good stuff. Any 2-series including M2 is a plastic toy compared to S2k but I bought M235i because 240hp even with that 28000 weight wasn't that exciting after 5 years of daily driving
And we wouldn't expect anything less, from the high performing and purpose built S2k, usable space notwithstanding..
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      12-05-2017, 03:25 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Y0tsuya View Post
Who's being misguided and logically flawed again?
Anyone who thinks "better" is an objective measurement, and not just a human perception overlaid on simple differences. No one doubts the ability of the 240 or the M2...."better" is just the wrong word and concept. If you stick with faster, more handling capability, stronger brakes....no argument. When you try to roll it up into a personal judgement of superiority, the proposition fails.
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      12-05-2017, 03:36 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sportstick View Post
"better" is just the wrong word and concept.
Well instead of waxing philosophic why not come up with a more suitable word then instead of yelling "You're wrong!" all the time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sportstick View Post
When you try to roll it up into a personal judgement of superiority, the proposition fails
There's nothing personal about measured performance numbers.

Last edited by Y0tsuya; 12-05-2017 at 03:41 PM..
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      12-05-2017, 03:42 PM   #82
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Quote:
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Well instead of waxing philosophic why not come up with a more suitable word then instead of yelling "You're wrong!" all the time?
Don't recall any all-caps being typed, but I believe I did offer an alternative for one or two examples.....

Faster
Higher performance handling
Shorter stopping brakes
Bigger wheels

If you need this boiled down to one word....maybe two.....

More...
Sporty
Aggressive
High Performance
Powerful

Descriptive without forcing a subjective relative measure of superiority....
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      12-05-2017, 03:44 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Y0tsuya View Post
There's nothing personal about measured performance numbers.
Of course there is.....one person may care, another not....the numbers are the numbers, but their importance/meaning can vary wildly from person to person. The numbers can be higher or lower, but they have no valence...neither better nor worse.
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      12-05-2017, 03:47 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sportstick View Post
Don't recall any all-caps being typed, but I believe I did offer an alternative for one or two examples.....

...some stuff

Descriptive without forcing a subjective relative measure of superiority....
Actually most of those are objective measures, not subjective. Despite what many people here claim, there's nothing logically flawed about comparing performance numbers between trims then concluding that the one with better numbers is the better car. In fact this is the epitome of logic.
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      12-05-2017, 03:49 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Y0tsuya View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sportstick View Post
Don't recall any all-caps being typed, but I believe I did offer an alternative for one or two examples.....

...some stuff

Descriptive without forcing a subjective relative measure of superiority....
Actually most of those are objective measures, not subjective. Despite what many people here claim, there's nothing logically flawed about comparing performance numbers between trims then concluding that the one with better numbers is the better car. In fact this is the epitome of logic.
No. It isn't.
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      12-05-2017, 03:54 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sportstick View Post
Of course there is.....one person may care, another not....the numbers are the numbers, but their importance/meaning can vary wildly from person to person. The numbers can be higher or lower, but they have no valence...neither better nor worse.
You forget we're buying performance cars, not Toyota Yaris. We care about performance numbers. If I just need something to get me from point A to point B, I don't care how much HP it makes or how many G's it can pull on the skidpad. The fact is the 240i gives 35% more HP at the cost of slight deficiency in weight and weight distribution. There's no getting around that extra 100HP though.
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      12-05-2017, 03:55 PM   #87
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No. It isn't.
Yes it is.
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      12-05-2017, 04:07 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3rdcoast228i View Post
M2 is a better car, period.


And it is. period.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So is it:

Better riding?

Better Gas Mileage?

It's a better Track car! Other than that it is not better in the all areas.

Parsing to make a point, really doesn't make one.

Each car has pro and cons. Some suit a person's needs "better" than others. Does not mean one car is better than another, just more suited to one buyer or one's intended uses than another.
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