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      04-17-2013, 06:03 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26
Quote:
Originally Posted by riM3 View Post
This makes me think the M2 isn't happening.

Given that the M135i is already a high-performer (near-1M, for less $$) and that it shares a base engine config with the coming M3 (N55 vs. S55). I'm not sure there's room for another spec between the two...

Further, they're already spanking the competition (RS3, etc.), so it's not clear to me that they need to throw an LSD, more power, etc. to sell more cars this side of the M3.
No there will definitely be an M2 due to the fact 1M has a legacy now and was not just a tuned 135i , everything that was good in the standard car was progressed to what you would expect from the M Division , it was not an Audi RS3 Sportback. So yes there is definitely room for an M235i and an M2 just as there is for a 435i and M4. You should know now that they are not just faster interpretations of the standard car , that every element is engineered , tuned and progressed to show that an M model is not just a badge and an aero packet.
Nothing is definitive (yet) and I appreciate the difference between an M car and a faster base car (I drive a '13 ZCP M3 and came from a '11 335i Performance Edition).

My point was the the M135i is reviewing/drives so well and so similarly to the 1M, that the increase in performance/chassis tuning required to differentiate the M2 vs. the M235i (and mechanically similar M135i) would have to be significant. Possibly too significant to justify.

My guess is that they offer the M235i, then a comp or performance version/package thereof w/ an LSD and maybe EDC (both from the current M3, inline with M's statements about recycling old M tech in M Performance cars), but that we don't see an M2.

Not to say that I wouldn't love to see an M2!
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      04-17-2013, 08:59 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by riM3 View Post
Nothing is definitive (yet) and I appreciate the difference between an M car and a faster base car (I drive a '13 ZCP M3 and came from a '11 335i Performance Edition).

My point was the the M135i is reviewing/drives so well and so similarly to the 1M, that the increase in performance/chassis tuning required to differentiate the M2 vs. the M235i (and mechanically similar M135i) would have to be significant. Possibly too significant to justify.

My guess is that they offer the M235i, then a comp or performance version/package thereof w/ an LSD and maybe EDC (both from the current M3, inline with M's statements about recycling old M tech in M Performance cars), but that we don't see an M2.

Not to say that I wouldn't love to see an M2!
Those are good points--but my guess is that you will have two types of buyers for this E46-sized car:

1. People who want a small, fast coupe with a good deal of options will opt for the M235 and come in around 50K

2. People who want a small, fast, more raw coupe with less options will opt for the M2 and come in around 50-55K.

One of the reasons I think the 1M was so successful was the relative lack of options--you couldn't price that car into the 70K range, even if you wanted to do so. It was made simply, yet brilliantly, and I think there will always be a market for that type of driver.

Especially since the new M3/M4 cars (as well as the E9X to some people) are going to be too big, heavy, complicated, and especially expensive. It seems to me that an M4 could realistically approach 100K, with all the options ticked off. That's simply insane.

Because of the changing dynamics, on a fundamental level, of what each series is focused, BMW will, in my opinion anyway, have plenty of buyers for both the M235 and M2. It isn't an accident that this coupe is very E46ish...
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      04-17-2013, 09:55 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by GeeRam View Post
I'd agree with that as well.

I was sitting in a C63 last year in a Merc dealer while waiting to collect my Mum's Merc for her, and I was thinking what a cheap nasty interior for such a car - European Fords have nicer interiors!!
I don't know how you could say the C63 AMG has a cheap/nasty interior. You might not like the design/layout of the interior but it's definitely not cheap/nasty. If you think the C63 AMG (or any C-Class for that matter) has a sub-standard interior for such a car, then I don't know what you would call the interior in the E90/E92.

Hey, you're entitled to your opinion.
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      04-17-2013, 11:29 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by bobodrink View Post
I personally like the CLA interior....simple and modern. SLS shift knob, SLS A/C look, AMG steering wheel, sport seats.
the air vents look cheap something an old eclipse would have had and the NAV screen is a joke, tiny and looks like its aftermarket.

Seats and steering wheel are nice though.
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      04-17-2013, 11:40 AM   #71
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We'll never see that epic interior here, because, if what I see on the F30 forum carries over, people are terrified to even buy an exterior color other than silver, white, or black.
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      04-17-2013, 11:48 AM   #72
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Looking good on the inside.

Hopefully the outside will deliver
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      04-17-2013, 12:50 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmboone25
Quote:
Originally Posted by riM3 View Post
Nothing is definitive (yet) and I appreciate the difference between an M car and a faster base car (I drive a '13 ZCP M3 and came from a '11 335i Performance Edition).

My point was the the M135i is reviewing/drives so well and so similarly to the 1M, that the increase in performance/chassis tuning required to differentiate the M2 vs. the M235i (and mechanically similar M135i) would have to be significant. Possibly too significant to justify.

My guess is that they offer the M235i, then a comp or performance version/package thereof w/ an LSD and maybe EDC (both from the current M3, inline with M's statements about recycling old M tech in M Performance cars), but that we don't see an M2.

Not to say that I wouldn't love to see an M2!
Those are good points--but my guess is that you will have two types of buyers for this E46-sized car:

1. People who want a small, fast coupe with a good deal of options will opt for the M235 and come in around 50K

2. People who want a small, fast, more raw coupe with less options will opt for the M2 and come in around 50-55K.

One of the reasons I think the 1M was so successful was the relative lack of options--you couldn't price that car into the 70K range, even if you wanted to do so. It was made simply, yet brilliantly, and I think there will always be a market for that type of driver.

Especially since the new M3/M4 cars (as well as the E9X to some people) are going to be too big, heavy, complicated, and especially expensive. It seems to me that an M4 could realistically approach 100K, with all the options ticked off. That's simply insane.

Because of the changing dynamics, on a fundamental level, of what each series is focused, BMW will, in my opinion anyway, have plenty of buyers for both the M235 and M2. It isn't an accident that this coupe is very E46ish...
Not disagreeing that there’s demand for a light, fast coupe from BMW. Just that the M235i, not the M2, is that offering.

To your points, the 1M (at $60k) wasn’t particularly light. While it was at its lightest (and one of the lightest in the line-up) when ordered without options, that will also be true if you choose to dispense with most of the options on an M135i or M235i. Given that the 1M didn’t have a carbon fiber roof at ~$60k; for the $50-55k you suggested the M2 will run, I’m not sure we’re going to see the extensive use of CFRP, plain carbon fiber, or even aluminum needed to materially reduce its weight vs. a stripped M235i.

Of course, for an M2, they could add more power…but not too much. After all, they’re already offering best-in-class performance and they wouldn’t want to cannibalize M3/4 sales.

At the end of the day, for the car to really be great it really needs M-diff, a bit more power/better cooling and perhaps some minor tweaks to what is already a great semi-M suspension. I’m not sure they need to slap a M-badge on the M235i to do that (or even need to in the first place).

I could be wrong, of course. They did make both an M550D and an M5 (though they are v different animals at ~40% difference in price).

Fingers crossed.
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      04-17-2013, 02:45 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by riM3 View Post
Not disagreeing that there’s demand for a light, fast coupe from BMW. Just that the M235i, not the M2, is that offering.

To your points, the 1M (at $60k) wasn’t particularly light. While it was at its lightest (and one of the lightest in the line-up) when ordered without options, that will also be true if you choose to dispense with most of the options on an M135i or M235i. Given that the 1M didn’t have a carbon fiber roof at ~$60k; for the $50-55k you suggested the M2 will run, I’m not sure we’re going to see the extensive use of CFRP, plain carbon fiber, or even aluminum needed to materially reduce its weight vs. a stripped M235i.

Of course, for an M2, they could add more power…but not too much. After all, they’re already offering best-in-class performance and they wouldn’t want to cannibalize M3/4 sales.

At the end of the day, for the car to really be great it really needs M-diff, a bit more power/better cooling and perhaps some minor tweaks to what is already a great semi-M suspension. I’m not sure they need to slap a M-badge on the M235i to do that (or even need to in the first place).

I could be wrong, of course. They did make both an M550D and an M5 (though they are v different animals at ~40% difference in price).

Fingers crossed.
Totally agree with you on the weight--these cars are all going to be "relatively" heavy in the 3300 lb range at lease. No Exige/Boxter weights here.

What I meant by the "simplicity" of the 1M was also apparent in the Z4MC--yes, there was some luxury in both, but no self-deploying rear shade for the kids in the back, ala the M3 (more GT and luxury these days than purpose built and raw).

Hopefully the M2 will be along those lines...
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      04-17-2013, 03:59 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 宝马.e90 View Post
I don't know how you could say the C63 AMG has a cheap/nasty interior. You might not like the design/layout of the interior but it's definitely not cheap/nasty. If you think the C63 AMG (or any C-Class for that matter) has a sub-standard interior for such a car, then I don't know what you would call the interior in the E90/E92.

Hey, you're entitled to your opinion.
We have a couple current-gen C classes in the family, the interior is definitely cheaper than an F30 3 series and even my E92. For example, the aluminum trim in my 335is feels like real metal whereas the aluminum in the C class is obviously painted plastic. Even on the E class coupe my friend has, the row of "metal" buttons going across the dash is a nasty, cheap plastic. The leather they use in a C class is not quite as nice as the 3 series' and MB Tex is no where near the quality of BMW's leatherette. Higher end Benzes have very nice interiors, but I think they went a little too far to save money on the C class.
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      04-18-2013, 12:55 PM   #76
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Looking forward to the M2!
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      04-19-2013, 09:27 AM   #77
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Want! The M2 is going to have an awesome platform to work off!
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      04-19-2013, 10:47 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
No there will definitely be an M2 due to the fact 1M has a legacy now and was not just a tuned 135i , everything that was good in the standard car was progressed to what you would expect from the M Division , it was not an Audi RS3 Sportback. So yes there is definitely room for an M235i and an M2 just as there is for a 435i and M4. You should know now that they are not just faster interpretations of the standard car , that every element is engineered , tuned and progressed to show that an M model is not just a badge and an aero packet.
Great news because I want me a M2 now that I can't have a 1M. So I'll enjoy my M3 meanwhile.

BTW what's the time frame for the M2?
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      04-24-2013, 07:28 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BimmerEngineer View Post
...The 135is should get a bump to 340hp and the M235 should be in the 385hp range. IMHO they need to be: 360 & 400.
if the m235 got 385-400 then how many would the M2 get? 500?

Last edited by hector; 04-24-2013 at 10:26 AM..
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      04-24-2013, 09:41 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BimmerEngineer View Post
Only problem is weight gain, and nowhere near enough power increase to offset that weight gain. The 135is should get a bump to 340hp and the M235 should be in the 385hp range. IMHO they need to be: 360 & 400.
First, the real numbers are higher than what they quote anyway. Second, what competitors would warrant this sort of power? If your answer involves a Mustang in any way, just know that ze Germans really don't care. When the S3 and A45 make 300 and 345 hp, and BMW traditionally has lower powered cars with better handling than their competitors, why would you expect BMW to leapfrog the others?

We all know the numbers you quoted are easily available with aftermarket tunes for relatively small money, so if you really think that's needed, it's readily available. For the price point of a 1, 2, or 3 series, the value still seems pretty strong. I'd also hate to know just how bad 400 hp with no mechanical LSD would be.
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      04-27-2013, 10:36 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by HoundForHire View Post
Yeah, the no DCT option may be the deal breaker for me also. I like the look of the exterior and interior, however.
Is it known for sure that there will be no DCT in the 2er? This week I took delivery of a 135is with DCT. It's so good...I'll never buy a manual or AT again for a daily driver.
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      04-28-2013, 08:17 AM   #82
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Is it known for sure that there will be no DCT in the 2er? This week I took delivery of a 135is with DCT. It's so good...I'll never buy a manual or AT again for a daily driver.
According to the rumors and a lot of folks here... The current M135i in Europe is not offered with DCT, and supposedly that means no for the M235i also. I personally think its strange for them to do that in the US where they've offered it for almost 2 years.

I really hope it makes it as an option for the M235i, its seriously something that would keep from buying the car if it doesn't. I have not been impressed in the ZF 8-speed at all, in the normal or sport config. For me, the DCT is far superior and I will pay $$ to get it in my 2er.
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      04-28-2013, 08:54 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by HoundForHire View Post
According to the rumors and a lot of folks here... The current M135i in Europe is not offered with DCT, and supposedly that means no for the M235i also. I personally think its strange for them to do that in the US where they've offered it for almost 2 years.

I really hope it makes it as an option for the M235i, its seriously something that would keep from buying the car if it doesn't. I have not been impressed in the ZF 8-speed at all, in the normal or sport config. For me, the DCT is far superior and I will pay $$ to get it in my 2er.
Well-said. I couldn't agree more. I haven't spent much time driving the 8-speed in the F30, but enough to know that the DCT is better for me.
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