[bladeomatic]

Originally Posted by Bennu

American muscle cars have always been the cheap alternative to have lots of power in a sporty car.

Agreed.

Ford, Chevy and Chrysler have built some burly, powerful cars through the years. What they did from the late 50's to the early 70's was fantastic. These great years were followed by the slow/stupid responses to improving design, fuel economy, weight, manufacturing processes, etc. See "Mustang 2" for more.

American mfrs tend to get lazy and quickly glue stuff on (big motor, big tires, small motor, nameplate, etc.) vs. carefully *designing* things to work together and then making incremental improvements over the years to further perfect things.

Take a look at the original VW Beetle, the 3 series or the 911. 3 Different cars in completely different price points. All carefully designed from the start and slowly perfected over decades. Not a lot of drastic movements. It's a heritage of design.

Chevy builds a crappy little car, lazily glues on an "Impala" or "Malibu" nameplate to garner nostalgia buys from these 40 year old names and puts them into the market at a cheap price point. No heritage except the name and perhaps a piece of trim. The 3 cars I listed above all spent years coaxing more hp from the same engine designs. Detroit tends to just go "boom!" and drop in a big V8 when more power is desired. It's machete vs. scalpel.

In my opinion, it's the difference between lazy and the pursuit of perfection.

I'm not saying that all American cars are crap. They aren't. The Corvette has done a good job of moving the stick through the years and the new resurgence of the Mustang, Camaro, Charger and Challenger have been fun to watch as well. They lead with nostalgia but do have some impressive points about them. They just don't seem to have that elegance of design like a fine swiss watch. 20 years from now I'll bet my bottom teeth there's still a 911 and 3 series being produced. I wouldn't be surprised to see most of the American iron above gone like a fad, to make room for things like a cheap, nostalgia version of the Ford Taurus. To be honest, VW is now more like Detroit with their cheap, nostalgia reissues of Beetle, Golf, etc. Going for that quick/cheap Hollywood sequel.

If you want to go fast for cheap, there's the American muscle cars and a number of fine Japanese go carts that can put a smile on your face. And that's fine. But few have the quality or design sense of the premium German cars. Whole 'nuther world, IMO.

An then there's reliability. Don't get me started about the 2 Fords I had that my wife used for groceries, etc. that both needed transmissions replaced at 21k and 43k miles respectively. That should never happen in any car.

Is my judgement of their past unreliability unfair?

Apparently not:

http://www.cnbc.com/id/101444215

Sorry for the long rant...

[phoenixbmwlife]

Originally Posted by bladeomatic

Agreed.

Ford, Chevy and Chrysler have built some burly, powerful cars through the years. What they did from the late 50's to the early 70's was fantastic. These great years were followed by the slow/stupid responses to improving design, fuel economy, weight, manufacturing processes, etc. See "Mustang 2" for more.

American mfrs tend to get lazy and quickly glue stuff on (big motor, big tires, small motor, nameplate, etc.) vs. carefully *designing* things to work together and then making incremental improvements over the years to further perfect things.

Take a look at the original VW Beetle, the 3 series or the 911. 3 Different cars in completely different price points. All carefully designed from the start and slowly perfected over decades. Not a lot of drastic movements. It's a heritage of design.

Chevy builds a crappy little car, lazily glues on an "Impala" or "Malibu" nameplate to garner nostalgia buys from these 40 year old names and puts them into the market at a cheap price point. No heritage except the name and perhaps a piece of trim. The 3 cars I listed above all spent years coaxing more hp from the same engine designs. Detroit tends to just go "boom!" and drop in a big V8 when more power is desired. It's machete vs. scalpel.

In my opinion, it's the difference between lazy and the pursuit of perfection.

I'm not saying that all American cars are crap. They aren't. The Corvette has done a good job of moving the stick through the years and the new resurgence of the Mustang, Camaro, Charger and Challenger have been fun to watch as well. They lead with nostalgia but do have some impressive points about them. They just don't seem to have that elegance of design like a fine swiss watch. 20 years from now I'll bet my bottom teeth there's still a 911 and 3 series being produced. I wouldn't be surprised to see most of the American iron above gone like a fad, to make room for things like a cheap, nostalgia version of the Ford Taurus. To be honest, VW is now more like Detroit with their cheap, nostalgia reissues of Beetle, Golf, etc. Going for that quick/cheap Hollywood sequel.

If you want to go fast for cheap, there's the American muscle cars and a number of fine Japanese go carts that can put a smile on your face. And that's fine. But few have the quality or design sense of the premium German cars. Whole 'nuther world, IMO.

An then there's reliability. Don't get me started about the 2 Fords I had that my wife used for groceries, etc. that both needed transmissions replaced at 21k and 43k miles respectively. That should never happen in any car.

Is my judgement of their past unreliability unfair?

Apparently not:

http://www.cnbc.com/id/101444215

Sorry for the long rant...

And to think that the car in question, the same one that is in comparison in this thread (M235i), has scored a 98/100 and some here still have the hallucination to say the mustang, (built by Ford that scored a 50/100), is the better car.

This is why I love numbers because they don't lie.

("While Tesla is riding high, Ford's ranking has hit a new low since CEO Alan Mulally took over.
Its score of 50 is only slightly lower than last year's score but caused it to rank as the second-worst brand—a drop from 2013. The only automaker to perform slightly lower was Jeep, which Ford edged out by a few decimal points. (The scores were both rounded up to 50 in the rankings.)")

[Year's_End]

Originally Posted by bladeomatic

Agreed.

Ford, Chevy and Chrysler have built some burly, powerful cars through the years. What they did from the late 50's to the early 70's was fantastic. These great years were followed by the slow/stupid responses to improving design, fuel economy, weight, manufacturing processes, etc. See "Mustang 2" for more.

American mfrs tend to get lazy and quickly glue stuff on (big motor, big tires, small motor, nameplate, etc.) vs. carefully *designing* things to work together and then making incremental improvements over the years to further perfect things.

Take a look at the original VW Beetle, the 3 series or the 911. 3 Different cars in completely different price points. All carefully designed from the start and slowly perfected over decades. Not a lot of drastic movements. It's a heritage of design.

Chevy builds a crappy little car, lazily glues on an "Impala" or "Malibu" nameplate to garner nostalgia buys from these 40 year old names and puts them into the market at a cheap price point. No heritage except the name and perhaps a piece of trim. The 3 cars I listed above all spent years coaxing more hp from the same engine designs. Detroit tends to just go "boom!" and drop in a big V8 when more power is desired. It's machete vs. scalpel.

In my opinion, it's the difference between lazy and the pursuit of perfection.

I'm not saying that all American cars are crap. They aren't. The Corvette has done a good job of moving the stick through the years and the new resurgence of the Mustang, Camaro, Charger and Challenger have been fun to watch as well. They lead with nostalgia but do have some impressive points about them. They just don't seem to have that elegance of design like a fine swiss watch. 20 years from now I'll bet my bottom teeth there's still a 911 and 3 series being produced. I wouldn't be surprised to see most of the American iron above gone like a fad, to make room for things like a cheap, nostalgia version of the Ford Taurus. To be honest, VW is now more like Detroit with their cheap, nostalgia reissues of Beetle, Golf, etc. Going for that quick/cheap Hollywood sequel.

If you want to go fast for cheap, there's the American muscle cars and a number of fine Japanese go carts that can put a smile on your face. And that's fine. But few have the quality or design sense of the premium German cars. Whole 'nuther world, IMO.

An then there's reliability. Don't get me started about the 2 Fords I had that my wife used for groceries, etc. that both needed transmissions replaced at 21k and 43k miles respectively. That should never happen in any car.

Is my judgement of their past unreliability unfair?

Apparently not:

http://www.cnbc.com/id/101444215

Sorry for the long rant...

If I had to copy and paste a passage to use as a prime example of the hasty generalization and stereotype fallacies, this would be a top contender. If your sole source of automotive information came from - say - this site, then I could see how BMW would sit on a pedestal that's untouched by any other OEM. They really are the ultimate marketing machine and their massive brand cache can attest to that. What you don't understand is that the designers and engineers of the Mustang are every bit as passionate.

Citing old cars and anecdotal experiences to support your argument? Well, I would never use my car as a sweeping generalization to argue for BMW's quality. Let's list what I've had the pleasure of dealing with up to the 120k mile point that's out of the ordinary for a car at this point:
-Four HPFP failures
-Both seatbelt 'assist' arms have failed and had been temporarily repaired at least five times until I gave up and accepted defeat
-Transmission failed just after passing 100k miles
-LEDs DRLs both front and rear continue to fail
-Xenon bulb auto leveler becomes loose so my low/high beams have a pronounced jiggle that affects traffic in front of me
-Front left fog died around 65-75k miles
-Soft touch black coating in the interior has completely peeled off of the steering wheel and is bubbled or falling off all over the IP
-Rattle nation since the 20k mile point
-Pearl chrome finish on shifter has bubbled up - that one caught me off guard
-Passenger seat lumbar bladder control came loose before 50k miles
-Velcro patch and plugs/screws for my floormats dislodged from the carpet
-USB port literally fell through my center console
-I've replaced both front and rear towhook covers at least once
*This is all barring routine engine repairs like replaced spark plugs and whatnot. I'm pretty sure that the intake ports are gummed up to hell and back too, thanks to DI's wonderful side effects. Time to go spit some walnut crumbs into the thing.

So yeah, coming up to 7 years and about 125,000 miles at this point. I take care of my car like any enthusiast would and end up with this phenomenal track record. Should I base my opinion of BMW's quality on this experience? I don't think so, but if I followed your logic maybe I should.

As far as staying power is concerned, the Mustang has been in service since 1965. I think that's even longer than a 3-Series... no? They're celebrating the 50th anniversary with the 2015.

Originally Posted by Bennu

And to think that the car in question, the same one that is in comparison in this thread (M235i), has scored a 98/100 and some here still have the hallucination to say the mustang, (built by Ford that scored a 50/100), is the better car.

This is why I love numbers because they don't lie.

("While Tesla is riding high, Ford's ranking has hit a new low since CEO Alan Mulally took over.
Its score of 50 is only slightly lower than last year's score but caused it to rank as the second-worst brand—a drop from 2013. The only automaker to perform slightly lower was Jeep, which Ford edged out by a few decimal points. (The scores were both rounded up to 50 in the rankings.)")

That bit right there that you said, ". . . some here still have the hallucination to say the Mustang. . . is the better car", who is that referring to? I'm reading the past couple of pages here and I'm pretty sure that there are only a handful of people - particularly myself - that are really active in this discussion. I don't see where anyone has called the Mustang "the better car". Please point it out to us.

It also amazes me that Consumer Reports goes from being biased dirtbags to the go-to source for information now that we're seeing positive recognition. I'm also reminded that it's difficult to come here and expect to see people appreciate cars of all makes and models... I should have known better.

[puma1552]

Originally Posted by aspensilver

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPy0T3Fojt0

Nice video showing the M235I flying around corners. However, it's still slower than a 2013 Mustang GT w/ track pack. The new S550 GT will provide better track performance than the Boss, so it will demolish the M235I.

I was obsessed with the M235I until I saw the new S550 GT back in December. Prior to seeing the S550 I had been reading about people wanting lots of power, LSD standard, etc. and the Mustang has all of that.

The interior quality of Ford has gone up a LOT since the prior S197 Mustang. The new Premium interior is equivalent to the 2 series premium. I know many here would never believe that but I think BMW's interior quality has gone down, and the design of the interior is a bit bland.

Where I think BMW will have the edge is ergonomics and driving position. I haven't seen a single Ford get close to BMW's perfect driving position. A lot of this is that Ford still hasn't built a proper electronic telescoping wheel, but it really only affects people that like a low wheel position like me. I haven't gotten to adjust a S550 wheel yet but that is the one area the Mustang might fall short, and it can result in significantly less comfortable driving experience.

But performance? Wow, BMW has been passed, lapped, and for thousands less. And the interior quality is not a big gap anymore like with the hideous S197 Mustang.




Take the 8K you save on the GT and use it towards the probably 2-3K extra spent on gas. Profit 5K and have a much faster car.




Why didn't you buy a 228I then?




Yeah it does sound superficial. You need to try the new Ford products. Once you sit in a GT Premium and hear it start up in person you are going to think differently. The S197 is a garbage car compared to the M235I but the new S550 is a huge leap forward.




Actually the Mustang forum is filled with Mustang guys who love the new design.

I own a BMW and I was going to buy a M235I but I want an S550 now. You are right that badge fanboys will scoff at a Ford product, that is true. I'm seeing several M3, 335, 135I guys on the mustang6g forum so I think you're wrong about people that really care about performance.

I was with you until you started slamming the S197 saying it was a "garbage" car, especially in the very same post where you post that it outperforms the M235i. Lest we not pull up the video of it against an E92 M3…

The S197 was released in 2005, so it was in design as early as the very early 2000s if not very late '90s. For a platform that goes back nearly fifteen years, it's a damn good car still by today's standards, even with a live axle. The S197 has had two major facelifts, and they are excellent cars now. Nothing "garbage" about them.

Originally Posted by Bennu

Ever thought that perhaps the reason some are switching to the Mustang is more because they can't afford to buy the BMW?

Maybe, but that's a bold assumption to assume the Mustang is the "consolation prize" and in fact is a very egotistical BMW-esque type attitude. I'm a former multiple BMW owner and could've bought a 2 series (and did cross-shop), but chose not to. I bought the Mustang because I wanted it, not because of price.

Originally Posted by Bennu

American muscle cars have always been the cheap alternative to have lots of power in a sporty car. And there is nothing wrong with that, it helps to keep our economy running.

Problem is I think a lot of people forget this and everything turns into a pissing match.

Originally Posted by Bennu

But don't try to make it seem like the new Mustang is a better car. That is absurd.

Based on what? How can you say it's absurd when the S550 has every sign of promise to outperform the M235i and the car hasn't even been released so you haven't even been able to sit in it to judge materials? Writing it off before it's even released is what's absurd, because you're making your assessment purely on preconceived notions.

Originally Posted by Bennu

We can approach it from many points of view not just financial. It's the other way around. The BMW is not a better car cause it's more expensive, it's more expensive cause it's a better car.

Part of why it's more expensive is because it simply has a roundel on it, plain and simple.

Originally Posted by Bennu

You still haven't responded to the question that some might be choosing the Mustang cause they can't afford the BMW. Don't you think that's a possibility? Financial is one thing but some will prefer the Mustang no matter what cause they won't buy a BMW. Others will choose the Mustang cause they have drank the "American Only Car" koolaid. That's fine also.

Just as many people - on this very site - who have drank the Ultimate Marketing Machine's Kool-Aid and have been sold very mediocre cars by an outstanding marketing machine. I say this as a former owner of two 3 series (one coupe one sedan) and both of them were extremely mediocre and nothing to write home about - far from the "Ultimate Driving Machine" but the ads might've had you believing otherwise. Different strokes for different folks, but it goes both ways.

Originally Posted by scottomfg

When it comes to price, one factor I haven't seen mentioned is how the lease rates compare. Given historical data for previous GTs, I would guess a $43k GT will cost *more* to lease than a $51k M235i. This is due to a 10% difference in residual and higher interest rates from Ford and the lack of an MSD option. Also, in about 6 months, I'd guess, you'll be able to get a significantly higher discount off MSRP on the M235i than the GT just based on the fact that there is much more room between invoice and MSRP. So, if you lease,

The lease rates probably don't compare because let's face it - people lease BMWs, they buy Mustangs. Don't know anyone on any Mustang forums leasing theirs. I would wager the lease payment on a 235i is not much more at all than the buy payment on my GT Premium though.

Originally Posted by bladeomatic

In my opinion, it's the difference between lazy and the pursuit of perfection.

I'm not saying that all American cars are crap. They aren't. The Corvette has done a good job of moving the stick through the years and the new resurgence of the Mustang, Camaro, Charger and Challenger have been fun to watch as well. They lead with nostalgia but do have some impressive points about them.

America did build junk for a while, and it culminated with the bailouts. Since then they have all turned things around, Ford in particular and are building great stuff now. On the other hand, Germany has had literally zero incentive to build something that can resist falling apart after year 3 and continues to offer over-engineered vehicles that are mechanical assholes after a certain point in time. Hard to argue quality when the same people arguing quality are leasing because they know the cars can't hold up in a purchase situation beyond that timeframe. I'd like to see Germany get a real kick in the ass and start putting out cars that are worth the price tag beyond the warranty period. For a premium price, you should get premium reliability. I sold my last BMW because it was - hands down - the biggest pile of mechanical crap I've ever owned.

Originally Posted by bladeomatic

They just don't seem to have that elegance of design like a fine swiss watch. 20 years from now I'll bet my bottom teeth there's still a 911 and 3 series being produced. I wouldn't be surprised to see most of the American iron above gone like a fad, to make room for things like a cheap, nostalgia version of the Ford Taurus. To be honest, VW is now more like Detroit with their cheap, nostalgia reissues of Beetle, Golf, etc. Going for that quick/cheap Hollywood sequel.

Hard to call cars with 50-60 years of heritage a fad, no?

Originally Posted by bladeomatic

An then there's reliability. Don't get me started about the 2 Fords I had that my wife used for groceries, etc. that both needed transmissions replaced at 21k and 43k miles respectively. That should never happen in any car.

Agreed, but don't get me started on the reliability of either of my BMWs either...

Originally Posted by Year's_End

What you don't understand is that the designers and engineers of the Mustang are every bit as passionate.

Bingo. It's a very small team of extremely passionate people.

Originally Posted by Year's_End

It also amazes me that Consumer Reports goes from being biased dirtbags to the go-to source for information now that we're seeing positive recognition. I'm also reminded that it's difficult to come here and expect to see people appreciate cars of all makes and models... I should have known better.

Lol, very well said and absolutely. CR is known for judging cars solely as appliances, and will give negative reliability for things they call "problems" like little tech niggles, which should really be considered "inconveniences" and six months ago not one person here would've cared what they said about anything…but all of a sudden…


At the end of the day I like the 2 series and many other BMW models. But I also like the Mustang, the Challenger, the Camaro, the Vette, Audi, Merc, VW, etc. etc. I've owned cars from all the continents and been happy with all, and brand loyalty is probably the worst thing an enthusiast can do to themselves. At the end of the day I looked hard at the 228i (buy not lease) and the GT Premium. Considered the S550 as well as I ordered my S197 two months after the S550 was revealed. End of the day, I wanted my hard earned dollars to go to a throaty V8 and a lot of torque in a great package this time around, so the '14 GT Premium won. Had nothing to do with price, and everything to do with smiles. End of the day, that's what we all care about most, right?

[wdlfbio]

All of that and I can't believe some people think that Coors Light or PBR are better beers than Ayinger. Much more rifined, smoother hops, far easier to slide down the bar tip back.

Good God. I'm amazed that folks aren't ok with others who don't share the same ideas and think they must be right about their opinions. There are obvious advantages and drawbacks to each model, but those r not seen the same by all of us. Both are good cars for what they are/offer.

I'm still holding out until I drive the S550 and feel it for myself. And I've had/have an '06 328xi, '08 M3, '12 335xi, and '12 Z4 35is. And I could walk out of the Porsche dealer with a 4S if I so chose. But that isn't the best suited for my needs right now.

[bladeomatic]

Originally Posted by puma1552

1) I say this as a former owner of two 3 series (one coupe one sedan) and both of them were extremely mediocre and nothing to write home about

2) America did build junk for a while, and it culminated with the bailouts.

3) Since then they have all turned things around, Ford in particular and are building great stuff now.

4) Hard to call cars with 50-60 years of heritage a fad, no?

1) The 3 series was "extremely mediocre". Really? You're entitled to your opinion, but isn't it just about the most decorated sport sedan of all time? You may have wanted something different, but it's been consistently at or near the top of most car mag lists for decades, no?

2) "Awhile"
Virtually *every* US auto maker made crap for about 40 years ('72-'12). That's a *generation* for an entire country, not a dud model year or two that could be quietly forgiven. In the early 70's while Ford was cranking out exploding Pintos & cheap Mavericks, BMW was creating the excellent 1600 & 2002. Don't get me started on Ford's Tempo & Taurus cars from the 80's. AMC, Chrysler K cars, Cadillac Cimmaron, etc. Decades of bad mojo.

3) "Ford's turned things around".
I'm not saying some of their recent cars aren't fun or inspiring. I'm saying their reliability record is poor. I don't use CR to tell me how an LSD feels when drifting, but their reliability data is carefully compiled from customer surveys and is one of the top resources for determining a car's repair history. JD powers Edmunds and other independent sources cite similar findings.

4) Mustang/ fad
You're right the Mustang has a rich history in car culture. Just saw the exhibit at the Petersen Auto Museum a few weeks ago in LA. It's very cool. 3 points I'll make re this:
-Asside from the vette, the other Johnny come latelies can't say this. The Camaro, Challenger & Charger were all mia for decades and only came back to the party when the retro 'stang showed them there was money in retro. Ditto re the dart, impala & Malibu. Sad retreads relying on the name vs the product. Expect a cuda, GTO & others to follow.
-50 years is true, but Ford took almost a decade off on the mustang, with the crown jewel being the shitty little pinto wanna be called the Mustang II. Rich history, yes. But not without many years of black eyes that they dared to offer to the public as their flagship sports car.
-I don't recall Porsche *ever* taking a year off to this degree on their flagship 911 line. I could be wrong, but I don't recall BMW dropping the ball that badly either.

Peace!

[dtn]

Yeah, I wouldn't think that any one shopping for a 2 is going to be seriously shopping for a Mustang too. The size differences are just too apparent.

I love what I'm seeing with the Ford's iconic pony car but they'd have to do a lot more to get me out of a BMW and into a Ford.

[Gaviin]

Originally Posted by bladeomatic

2) "Awhile"

Totally off topic, but your grammatical correction there is not really warranted. When used after a preposition, using "a while" is the traditionally accepted form.

Just to say something on topic... I prefer BMWs to Fords.

[puma1552]

Originally Posted by bladeomatic

4) Mustang/ fad
You're right the Mustang has a rich history in car culture. Just saw the exhibit at the Petersen Auto Museum a few weeks ago in LA. It's very cool. 3 points I'll make re this:


-Asside from the vette, the other Johnny come latelies can't say this. The Camaro, Challenger & Charger were all mia for decades and only came back to the party when the retro 'stang showed them there was money in retro.

-50 years is true, but Ford took almost a decade off on the mustang, with the crown jewel being the shitty little pinto wanna be called the Mustang II.

Peace!

Couple corrections, the Camaro was MIA for 8 years, not decades; and it was decided at the time they discontinued it in 2002 that a return was likely for later in the decade. Also Ford never took a decade off on the Mustang, not sure where you got that? It's been in continuous production for 50 years.

[w3rkn]

Originally Posted by Bennu

We can approach it from many points of view not just financial. It's the other way around. The BMW is not a better car cause it's more expensive, it's more expensive cause it's a better car.

You still haven't responded to the question that some might be choosing the Mustang cause they can't afford the BMW. Don't you think that's a possibility? Financial is one thing but some will prefer the Mustang no matter what cause they won't buy a BMW. Others will choose the Mustang cause they have drank the "American Only Car" koolaid. That's fine also. Either way I think I have a good argument that the cost of the M235i with the options people want in a car at $50,000+ is more than what some people want to spend on a new car therefore the mustang makes a good alternative at $10,000 - $15,000 less. Especially if you change cars every 2 - 3 years.

With all the statistics and real world experience showing otherwise, you still come here on a BMW forum and think the Ford is a better car? LOL No worries, whatever works for you.

Price isn't an issue...
As you cannot short-term LEASE a Mustang, and residuals on BMW are higher, so the cost is nearly the same. Not a relative argument, save for the dire penny pincher among us.

I, along with my friend are a prime example of BMW enthusiast looking at the new s550 Mustang. We have all owned several BMW's.. all sick of the size the BMW 3 & 4 series has gotten, & all have test driven a M235i (except me). We are all interested in this new Mustang, because of the track performance it offers. Along with the refined suspension and "World Car" qualities that Mulally brought along with this car. On paper it looks like a Win/Win, but driving characteristics are important to me.. & my friends.

So we wait...


I drive a $52k BMW 135is.. it's quicker than my budz M3, and much more tossible & able. But it suffers greatly at speed, as it just bounces down the highway and the wheelbase is too short... hence the M235i..

Which gained moAr weight..



M235i vs s550 GT: ?
There is going to be a lot of CROSS- SHOPPING between the M235i & the s550 Mustang, because they are so similar. But I think the Mustang will win out, almost every time do to several reasons. Cost of ownership and aftermarket being the biggest reason. The Mustang comes in 3 engines, but the 5.0 is much more of an engine than the n55, and slap-ons are unlimited. Performance will go to the Mustang, as the new one will compete with the M4's, not the M235i. For much less...

I didn't want a M235i..
I am waiting on the new M2, but will cross-shop that with a GT350 when they are both out. The GT350 will be about $50k'ish and stomps a $50k M235i. Because the $37 Mustang already will.. There is no comparison in performance, it just remains to be seen how the new Mustang drives. So we wait on the fence..

Also worth noting... that my 135is suffers from not having a true LSD and one of the reason I am not going to keep it. It is too erratic in any sideways maneuver, never consistent always edgy. BMW knows this, the community knows this & the reason BMW offers a $3,200 optional LSD for the M235i..

How much again for Recaros in the M235i...?



Again Bennu... you can claim superiority, because the BMW is more.. but it also offers less... & that's a hard bit of logic to dismiss.

I understand that BMW is a luxury-performance brand... but not to many people buying a 1-series, or a 2-series really cares about all the lux, or uber-features. They want a car that performs & handles and has a community support.

Coincidentally, this weekend at a cruise, I had a chance to see & touch the new Mustang and it's materials are well above previous Mustang, and no less than my 135is. (It was pre-production so fit & finish was overlooked, but will be on my final judgment list). But there was no BMW one-upmanship going on here, Ford has just up it's game massively and I conclude many Europeans will be surprised when they visit their dealers as well.

The M235i does nothing for me... & if the M2 weighs more than the 1-series, I will shop Ford GT350, or Vette. I have high hopes for the BMW M2, but if I was shopping a M235i, I would seriously be considering holding off until you drive a s550 based Mustang.

[Year's_End]

Originally Posted by w3rkn

Also worth noting... that my 135is suffers from not having a true LSD and one of the reason I am not going to keep it. It is too erratic in any sideways maneuver, never consistent always edgy. BMW knows this, the community knows this & the reason BMW offers a $3,200 optional LSD for the M235i..

If I was getting another BMW it would have to be a real M model with a bonafide mechanical LSD, or I'd have to get something installed like a Quaife (or I could pay an insane markup for the same thing under the 'M Performance' name). I hate how my car will bounce power left and right on low traction surfaces.

[w3rkn]

Originally Posted by Year's_End

If I was getting another BMW it would have to be a real M model with a bonafide mechanical LSD, or I'd have to get something installed like a Quaife (or I could pay an insane markup for the same thing under the 'M Performance' name). I hate how my car will bounce power left and right on low traction surfaces.

BMW spends sooo much time, trying to artificially make the M3 it's halo. BMW spend a lot of time hindering the 135/235 so it doesn't steal sales away from the M's.

Problem is, BMW doesn't look at other brands, besides German. A M235i w/lsd is $47k... that's the price for the up-and-coming Mustang SVT..

[bladeomatic]

Originally Posted by puma1552

Couple corrections, the Camaro was MIA for 8 years, not decades; and it was decided at the time they discontinued it in 2002 that a return was likely for later in the decade. Also Ford never took a decade off on the Mustang, not sure where you got that? It's been in continuous production for 50 years.

You are correct re the Camaro's timeline. My bad. They weren't MIA like the Mopar cars. However, they did "phone-in" a model or 2 like the one below.

When I said Ford "took a decade off", I didn't mean that they didn't mfr the Mustang anymore. Just that they took a vacation on building quality, sporty cars for many years. Take a look here to see what I mean:

http://www.ridelust.com/angels-and-d...s-ever-part-2/

[ManCityFan]

Originally Posted by w3rkn

Price isn't an issue...
As you cannot short-term LEASE a Mustang, and residuals on BMW are higher, so the cost is nearly the same. Not a relative argument, save for the dire penny pincher among us.

I, along with my friend are a prime example of BMW enthusiast looking at the new s550 Mustang. We have all owned several BMW's.. all sick of the size the BMW 3 & 4 series has gotten, & all have test driven a M235i (except me). We are all interested in this new Mustang, because of the track performance it offers. Along with the refined suspension and "World Car" qualities that Mulally brought along with this car. On paper it looks like a Win/Win, but driving characteristics are important to me.. & my friends.

So we wait...


I drive a $52k BMW 135is.. it's quicker than my budz M3, and much more tossible & able. But it suffers greatly at speed, as it just bounces down the highway and the wheelbase is too short... hence the M235i..

Which gained moAr weight..



M235i vs s550 GT: ?
There is going to be a lot of CROSS- SHOPPING between the M235i & the s550 Mustang, because they are so similar. But I think the Mustang will win out, almost every time do to several reasons. Cost of ownership and aftermarket being the biggest reason. The Mustang comes in 3 engines, but the 5.0 is much more of an engine than the n55, and slap-ons are unlimited. Performance will go to the Mustang, as the new one will compete with the M4's, not the M235i. For much less...

I didn't want a M235i..
I am waiting on the new M2, but will cross-shop that with a GT350 when they are both out. The GT350 will be about $50k'ish and stomps a $50k M235i. Because the $37 Mustang already will.. There is no comparison in performance, it just remains to be seen how the new Mustang drives. So we wait on the fence..

Also worth noting... that my 135is suffers from not having a true LSD and one of the reason I am not going to keep it. It is too erratic in any sideways maneuver, never consistent always edgy. BMW knows this, the community knows this & the reason BMW offers a $3,200 optional LSD for the M235i..

How much again for Recaros in the M235i...?



Again Bennu... you can claim superiority, because the BMW is more.. but it also offers less... & that's a hard bit of logic to dismiss.

I understand that BMW is a luxury-performance brand... but not to many people buying a 1-series, or a 2-series really cares about all the lux, or uber-features. They want a car that performs & handles and has a community support.

Coincidentally, this weekend at a cruise, I had a chance to see & touch the new Mustang and it's materials are well above previous Mustang, and no less than my 135is. (It was pre-production so fit & finish was overlooked, but will be on my final judgment list). But there was no BMW one-upmanship going on here, Ford has just up it's game massively and I conclude many Europeans will be surprised when they visit their dealers as well.

The M235i does nothing for me... & if the M2 weighs more than the 1-series, I will shop Ford GT350, or Vette. I have high hopes for the BMW M2, but if I was shopping a M235i, I would seriously be considering holding off until you drive a s550 based Mustang.

Ok so If I understand you correctly, you've convinced yourself the 2015 mustang will be a better car for you than an m235i? Cool!? Your biggest mistake (among many) is assuming anyone but you and your mommy gives a shit what kind of car you buy. Personally, and I say this without meaning to cause offense, I wouldn't drive a mustang if you gave me one for free. The "new" body style that you love so much will be common as camrys within a year. And in spite of this supposed world beating performance, to the layman they'll still just be a ford.

[puma1552]

Originally Posted by ManCityFan

Personally, and I say this without meaning to cause offense, I wouldn't drive a mustang if you gave me one for free. The "new" body style that you love so much will be common as camrys within a year. And in spite of this supposed world beating performance, to the layman they'll still just be a ford.

So basically you are the layman you are talking about? World beating performance, but you wouldn't drive one for free, presumably because you're one of those "it'll still just be a Ford" types?

[BForbes]

Lets keep it clean, please.

[Year's_End]

Originally Posted by ManCityFan

Ok so If I understand you correctly, you've convinced yourself the 2015 mustang will be a better car for you than an m235i? Cool!? Your biggest mistake (among many) is assuming anyone but you and your mommy gives a shit what kind of car you buy.

Read the title of this thread. Guess what the topic of discussion is going to be.

Originally Posted by ManCityFan

Personally, and I say this without meaning to cause offense, I wouldn't drive a mustang if you gave me one for free. The "new" body style that you love so much will be common as camrys within a year.

Says the guy driving the bottom rung Bimmer. They say that the 3-Series is a dime-a-dozen; take that model, chop off a few inches and a few thousand off the base price, make it so that anyone living above the poverty line can lease one, and guess how common it will be. Also not understanding why the word 'new' is being quoted, as if that's implying something. I'm not following.

Originally Posted by ManCityFan

And in spite of this supposed world beating performance, to the layman they'll still just be a ford.

Phew, I'm glad that we're not the type of people that buys things with the intention of impressing other people! Isn't there a name for that? I think it's a two word expression and the first word starts with badge.