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      03-30-2014, 06:56 PM   #397
bradleyland
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The M12 made over 1000 HP using just 1500cc of displacement. They should totally have put that in the new M3/4 and call it a day. Makes total sense, right? Except for the fact that when you read interviews from anyone who drove the cars powered by them, they'll tell you how difficult it was to manage the power band.

"the engine is going from 450 HP to 800 HP in about 1,000 RPM" [1]

So you go from a tuned STi to a supercharged big block in about 1,000 RPM. Total pussy cat, am I right?

Yes, tiny, turbocharged engines save weight, but they come at a price. It's a continuum. On one end, you've got a motor like the LT4 in the new Corvette Stingray. You can take 2nd gear corners in 3rd gear when you've got an LT4 under the hood. You'll pay a small penalty, but you can quickly recover. On the other end of the spectrum, you have insane combinations of small-displacement, high-revs, and monster turbos like the M12. Everywhere in between lies engines like the N55, S55, and the M133. Everyone's preference lies somewhere on that continuum as well, and they're all valid.

The M12 was absolutely incredible. The M133 is absolutely incredible. The N55 is a damn nice engine. IMO, the M133 is a higher technical achievement, but it's a different engine with a different character. If I were choosing between the M133 and the S55... man, that's a much tougher choice. I'd have to look at the whole picture. What car is it in? What's the design goal of the car? Is it more of a GT, or more of a sports car? It's not a simple matter of walking over spec lists asking "is X > Y?"

1: http://www.gurneyflap.com/bmwturbof1engine.html
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      03-30-2014, 07:55 PM   #398
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Trend definition:

1. The general direction in which something tends to move.
2. A general tendency or inclination.
3. Current style; vogue: the latest trend in fashion.

intr.v. trend·ed, trend·ing, trends
1. To extend, incline, or veer in a specified direction.
2. To show a general tendency.


Thesis:

Inline-6 engine is a marketing thing for BMW.


Evidences:

It represents a significant weight penalty regarding 4 cyl. engines which is obviously detrimental for the "Sheer Driving Pleasure" and "Efficient Dynamics".

1. Less fuel-efficient
2. More emissions
3. More weight over the front axle
4. Higher COG
5. Lower aerodynamic efficiency
6. Less favorable power-to-weight ratio.
7. Tendency for higher power output which equates to an even higher overall weight
8. Weight being the worst enemy of a car's dynamics: braking, accelerating, cornering


Commercial advantages:

6 cyl. tradition and image; development cost (the turbocharged engine is on the market since 2006, it's basically the same engine or using already proven and even older technologies such as Valvetronic); a 4 and 3 cyl. engine derivatives can be easily obtained by simply cutting out 2 or 3 cylinders with most of the other engine components being shared; the 6 cyl. engine is regarded as a luxury item associated to premium, heavier, pricier cars whereas its 4 cyl. counterpart is not despite the fact of sharing the very same technologies and most of the components.


Conclusion:

A 6 cyl. engine is a marketing thing for BMW with important disadvantages to as far as a sportier driving experience, fuel-efficiency and emissions go.

Last edited by GoingTooFast; 03-30-2014 at 08:31 PM..
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      03-30-2014, 08:29 PM   #399
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoingTooFast View Post
Trend definition:

1. The general direction in which something tends to move.
2. A general tendency or inclination.
3. Current style; vogue: the latest trend in fashion.

intr.v. trend·ed, trend·ing, trends
1. To extend, incline, or veer in a specified direction.
2. To show a general tendency.


Thesis:

Inline-6 engine is a marketing thing for BMW.


Evidences:

It represents a significant weight penalty regarding 4 cyl. engines which is obviously detrimental for the "Sheer Driving Pleasure" and "Efficient Dynamics".

1. Less fuel-efficient
2. More emissions
3. More weight over the front axle
4. Higher COG
5. Lower aerodynamic efficiency
6. Less favorable power-to-weight ratio.
7. Tendency for higher power output which equates to an even higher overall weight
8. Weight being the worst enemy of a car's dynamics: braking, accelerating, cornering


Commercial advantages:

6 cyl. tradition and image; development cost (the turbocharged engine is on the market since 2006, it's basically the same engine or using already proven and even older technologies such as Valvetronic); a 4 and 3 cyl. engine derivatives can been easily obtained by simply cutting out 2 or 3 cylinders with most of the other engine components being shared; the 6 cyl. engine is regarded as a luxury item associated to premium, heavier, pricier cars whereas its 4 cyl. counterpart is not despite the fact of sharing the very same technologies and most of the components.


Conclusion:

A 6 cyl. engine is a marketing thing for BMW with important disadvantages to as far as a sportier driving experience, fuel-efficiency and emissions go.
Why is BMW using a 6cil in the M4 then? is that marketing too? should they have used a 4 cil then?

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      03-30-2014, 08:39 PM   #400
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoingTooFast View Post
Thesis:

Inline-6 engine is a marketing thing for BMW.
I will not dispute that the inline-6 engine is a marketing bullet point for BMW, but that's not what you've said before. More goal post moving. You've said, repeatedly, that it is only marketing. A distinction with which I disagree.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GoingTooFast View Post
Evidences:

It represents a significant weight penalty regarding 4 cyl. engines which is obviously detrimental for the "Sheer Driving Pleasure" and "Efficient Dynamics".

1. Less fuel-efficient
2. More emissions
3. More weight over the front axle
4. Higher COG
5. Lower aerodynamic efficiency
6. Less favorable power-to-weight ratio.
7. Tendency for higher power output which equates to an even higher overall weight
8. Weight being the worst enemy of a car's dynamics: braking, accelerating, cornering
1. Less fuel-efficient

An I6 is not always less fuel-efficient than an I4. You can't say that. What you can say is that larger displacement results in increased fuel consumption. That is a factual statement that I won't dispute.

Regardless, not everyone puts fuel-efficiency as top priority. This doesn't support your thesis that the I6 is "marketing only". Some customers deeply want an I6 for its character.

2. More emissions

Again, factually true, but doesn't support your thesis for the reasons stated above.

3. More weight over the front axle
4. Higher COG

Again, you're naming differences that are objectively true, but may not bear 100% on the subjective desires of a given car buyer.

5. Lower aerodynamic efficiency

I don't understand how an I6 significantly impacts aerodynamic performance. You'll have to educate us on that one.

6. Less favorable power-to-weight ratio.

This is factually incorrect. An I6 does not inherently have a lower power-to-weight ratio.

7. Tendency for higher power output which equates to an even higher overall weight

Huh?

8. Weight being the worst enemy of a car's dynamics: braking, accelerating, cornering

Agreed. One should seek to keep weight low in a sports car. Like I said, I'd love for BMW to have released an I4 powered M2, but that doesn't make the I6 only marketing. It just means the balance of priorities is a little different. An I6 powered M2 will have greater engine flexibility and better throttle response at a given power level, were that same power level sought with an I4.



Quote:
Originally Posted by GoingTooFast View Post
Commercial advantages:

6 cyl. tradition and image; development cost (the turbocharged engine is on the market since 2006, it's basically the same engine or using already proven and even older technologies such as Valvetronic); a 4 and 3 cyl. engine derivatives can been easily obtained by simply cutting out 2 or 3 cylinders with most of the other engine components being shared; the 6 cyl. engine is regarded as a luxury item associated to premium, heavier, pricier cars whereas its 4 cyl. counterpart is not despite the fact of sharing the very same technologies and most of the components.
The I6 is also associated with many fantastic sports cars. Jaguar E-type, anyone? It is one of two engine packaging configurations which have perfect natural balance of first and second order forces. Enthusiasts love the I6 for reasons that are not related to commercial efficiencies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoingTooFast View Post
Conclusion:

A 6 cyl. engine is a marketing thing for BMW with important disadvantages to as far as a sportier driving experience, fuel-efficiency and emissions go.
Your conclusion is partially correct. The I6 has marketing value to BMW. It's part of their ethos, but the I6 is has value outside of its marketing as well. You're creating a false dichotomy. These two things are not mutually exclusive.
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      03-30-2014, 08:44 PM   #401
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Originally Posted by pikcachu View Post
Why is BMW using a 6cil in the M4 then? is that marketing too? should they have used a 4 cil then?
Because it's the way they'll make the highest profit... isn't why marketing was inventend for?!

And they are right about it... until the competition offers a 4 cylinder alternative for that car segment like Mercedes did with the CLA AMG vs the M235i.

So, they will be wrong about the M2 if they ever fit a 6-cyl. engine in it.

Audi just have showed a 420 hp turbocharged 4 cyl. engine with their TT concept.
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      03-30-2014, 08:47 PM   #402
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The only reason to use a 4 cylinder engine is emissions and/or cost. Mercedes had to use a 4 cyl in CLA because it's a FWD car designed for a transverse engine mount. I have no idea what you are going on about, the 4 cylinder might make similar power but it must pay the price for it's heavy reliance on boost. You can't cheat physics. The engine cannot be as responsive, period.
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      03-30-2014, 09:04 PM   #403
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleyland View Post
I will not dispute that the inline-6 engine is a marketing bullet point for BMW, but that's not what you've said before. More goal post moving. You've said, repeatedly, that it is only marketing. A distinction with which I disagree
At this stage I think I have already shown why claiming "Sheer Driving Pleasure" and "Efficient Dynamics" and then offering a heavier and less fuel-efficient engine/car solution can be understandable by marketing reasons ONLY.

It's not about if people care about fuel-efficiency or not, it's about the fact that BMW as a brand claim they do.

It's not about if people care about a sportier car's character or not, it's about the fact that BMW as a brand claim they do.
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      03-30-2014, 09:20 PM   #404
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris719 View Post
I have no idea what you are going on about, the 4 cylinder might make similar power but it must pay the price for it's heavy reliance on boost. You can't cheat physics. The engine cannot be as responsive, period.
The 228i is not AWD or FWD and its 4-cylinder engine is mounted longitudinally.

That said, given the difference in responsiveness between the two solutions today I can confidently tell you that no driver caring for car performance and dynamics will give a sh#t for in gear engine responsiveness when they can experience the less weight advantages.

Moreover, I see people here claiming for a manual gearbox as an indispensable part of a greater driving experience and involvement and then they are worried about in gear responsiveness from the engine on a sports car like they were driving a saloon... why do you want a manual gearbox for?! Just downshift then!!!
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      04-03-2014, 06:13 AM   #405
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most people over in the UK (other than people buying the top M models or that are real enthusiasts) don't even know what an IL6 is or the difference between that and an IL4 for that matter.

I very rarely see BMW even market the fact the engine has 6 cylinders. Your marketing argument is invalid.
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      04-04-2014, 10:27 AM   #406
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The inline-6 will always be superior to 4-cylinder in grand touring car. Even if the engineers somehow perform a magical feat of eliminating turbo lag in 4-cylinder (not likely) inline-6 will still sound better, it will be smoother and it will be more durable because it is less stressed. Moreover: there are still some people who appreciate originality and character in their cars (like me) and run-of-the-mill inline-4 just doesn't cut it.
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