[boramkiv]

Well I'm going to go all in and bet everything I have that the M2 will cost somewhere between $40K and $64K...

[W///]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

Ever driven an M-car? It may not matter to you, but the engine in the F80 is a way more exciting and special engine than the N55. I just drove one at full tilt through the mountains of Western Virginia back-to-back with my S65 powered M3; which is arguably one of the most special engines BMW ever made.

For me, it doesn't really matter whether the engine is an S55. It could be an S20, or an S38 for that matter. I only care that the engine has the qualities that make it special: free revving, high-revving, strong power to redline, pleasing exhaust note, adequate power output. Note that power output is last on the list. The S14 made 240 HP in it's most aggressive tune, yet people loved that motor, and you'd be hard pressed to make a solid argument that it wasn't a special engine.

If none of this matters to you, fine, but you can't make the argument that these aren't the attributes of an M-car. Trace the M-car lineage back to the beginning and you'll find that the 1M, and soon to be the M2, are the exception, not the rule.

Let's not forget the US spec S50 and S52. It's really the same thing as the 1M and M2. They might have an S in front of them, but they really were just a bigger 328i.

My prediction is that the engine will be good/adequate (not excellent), but the handling will be what makes the M2 shine. Whether that is good enough of a package for you to pull the trigger, I don't know. It's certainly enticing to me though (depending on the price of course).

[H2887]

I replaced my E90 M3 with a M235i and I couldn't be happier.I immediately bumped up the HP to the M2 275 with the plug and play at a cost of about 300.00.There are a few things I would like to have that the M2 will probobly deliver,bigger tires and LSD would be nice but I dont track my car much anymore and for a daily driver i can save the 10k+ that the M2 will cost.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

Great question! I think it has.

The 1M was a stealth project that was born in the engineering department of M GmbH. The engineers there put together a parts bin car that defied everything the automotive enthusiast community would normally attribute to a car carrying that moniker. Basically, the 1M was awesome. But everyone was right then, and they're right now. The 1M would have been better with a more special engine.

So what has changed? This time around, the M2 wasn't a hurried project; it was a normally developed and planned release. The forum's famous (or infamous, depending on your perspective) BMW insider — who shall remain nameless — leaked messages that this time, BMW would take its time and do the project with the normal amount of development and attention to the details. An odd message considering how well the 1M turned out, but unquestionably, this led many to expect something more in line with the traditional M formula. Reasonably, this would include resolving the anomaly of the N-engine in the 1M.

And here we are. The intervening 4 years have given BMW ever opportunity to make sure that the M2 has no warts, yet it will be delivered with an N55 engine. It will be the only M-car in BMW's line up lacking an S-engine.

Circling back again. I do not believe this will make the M2 a "bad car". To the contrary, I expect the M2 will have a great chassis. We'll see when official pricing is announced whether the compromise of the N55 was a worth it to the enthusiast community.

Again... the biggest " compromise "... er... warts... make up a name for your disappointment.... on the 1M was the lack of a CF roof and also the non S motor. it didn't matter one bit in the market place... only on internet forums where it is still called not more than a 135... if the M2 comes out the same way... it will be just as successful. Let me fix your comment.. It will STILL be the only M-car in BMW's line up lacking an S-engine.


COmparison tests will feature the Merc CLA45... the Cayman GTS... and the M2... I don't know if Audi has a car ready for market..... the RS3 is coming? Cayman will be sublime and pricey..... CLA is the 4 door option that BMW and Porsche don't have...Audi will have the AWD and be best value perhaps and the BMW m2 is the best all around car for the money.

[Eddien123]

Originally Posted by wdeerfield

A spec'd m235i is 51-55k. i do not see the m2 coming in below 55k.

This

[PackPride85]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

Ever driven an M-car? It may not matter to you, but the engine in the F80 is a way more exciting and special engine than the N55. I just drove one at full tilt through the mountains of Western Virginia back-to-back with my S65 powered M3; which is arguably one of the most special engines BMW ever made.

For me, it doesn't really matter whether the engine is an S55. It could be an S20, or an S38 for that matter. I only care that the engine has the qualities that make it special: free revving, high-revving, strong power to redline, pleasing exhaust note, adequate power output. Note that power output is last on the list. The S14 made 240 HP in it's most aggressive tune, yet people loved that motor, and you'd be hard pressed to make a solid argument that it wasn't a special engine.

If none of this matters to you, fine, but you can't make the argument that these aren't the attributes of an M-car. Trace the M-car lineage back to the beginning and you'll find that the 1M, and soon to be the M2, are the exception, not the rule.

The definition of an M car changed when the 1M was released. 10 years from now it will probably change again when its all hybrid and no manual. And again after that when everything is electric.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

Ever driven an M-car? It may not matter to you, but the engine in the F80 is a way more exciting and special engine than the N55. I just drove one at full tilt through the mountains of Western Virginia back-to-back with my S65 powered M3; which is arguably one of the most special engines BMW ever made.

For me, it doesn't really matter whether the engine is an S55. It could be an S20, or an S38 for that matter. I only care that the engine has the qualities that make it special: free revving, high-revving, strong power to redline, pleasing exhaust note, adequate power output. Note that power output is last on the list. The S14 made 240 HP in it's most aggressive tune, yet people loved that motor, and you'd be hard pressed to make a solid argument that it wasn't a special engine.

If none of this matters to you, fine, but you can't make the argument that these aren't the attributes of an M-car. Trace the M-car lineage back to the beginning and you'll find that the 1M, and soon to be the M2, are the exception, not the rule.

It's not like this is without precedent..the US spec E36 M3 is another MASSIVE exception..... Along with the first generation MZ3 in the first couple of years..


You want a unique... high revving S motor... doesn't matter the # of cylinders... the simple fact is MORE buyers will complain if it doesn't have a " vaunted BMW 6 cylinder".... The simple fact is... the best chance for an S motor in the M2 was an S20... and that went down in flames early on in this forum.

The Market researched happened on these very pages.. as far as I am concerned..

I would have loved an S20..... and they also could have thrown it into an X1 M..

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by W///

Let's not forget the US spec S50 and S52. It's really the same thing as the 1M and M2. They might have an S in front of them, but they really were just a bigger 328i.

My prediction is that the engine will be good/adequate (not excellent), but the handling will be what makes the M2 shine. Whether that is good enough of a package for you to pull the trigger, I don't know. It's certainly enticing to me though (depending on the price of course).

Great point on the S50 and S52. However, I think they support my argument. Any time anyone talks about the US market E36 M3, the caveat is the lackluster engine. Again, I want "special", not "S". I often conflate the two, because the majority of S-engines have that special quality, but I acknowledge not all of them do.

You're fortunate to have the means to keep your stable full. I'm sure you can understand why someone who can only realistically have one would desire something more special than the N55.

[KevinM]

Man, we need some facts, and soon...then we can just go back to to arguing about an N vs. S (I'm sorry, "bespoke") engine in the car.

Anyway, I expect an approx $10K difference between a similarly optioned M235 and the M2. And then another approx $10K to go from the M2 to the M4.

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

Again... the biggest " compromise "... er... warts... make up a name for your disappointment.... on the 1M was the lack of a CF roof and also the non S motor. it didn't matter one bit in the market place... only on internet forums where it is still called not more than a 135... if the M2 comes out the same way... it will be just as successful. Let me fix your comment.. It will STILL be the only M-car in BMW's line up lacking an S-engine.

Wait, so you're honestly going to try and make the argument that the lack of a CF roof on the 1M was a bigger compromise than the N54? I'm not sure if I even need to make an argument against that, or if I should just leave this here for everyone to evaluate on their own.

Also, referring to negative aspects of a car as "warts" isn't exactly breaking new linguistic ground, so I'm not sure what you're on about there.

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

COmparison tests will feature the Merc CLA45... the Cayman GTS... and the M2... I don't know if Audi has a car ready for market..... the RS3 is coming? Cayman will be sublime and pricey..... CLA is the 4 door option that BMW and Porsche don't have...Audi will have the AWD and be best value perhaps and the BMW m2 is the best all around car for the money.

Can't wait to see the M2 comparisons, for sure. Interesting that no one else has a coupé in the segment. That, undoubtedly, contributed to BMW's decision to save costs and keep the N55 in the M2. When you've got the only option around, why squeeze your margins? Am I right?

[OG///M]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

Great point on the S50 and S52. However, I think they support my argument. Any time anyone talks about the US market E36 M3, the caveat is the lackluster engine. Again, I want "special", not "S". I often conflate the two, because the majority of S-engines have that special quality, but I acknowledge not all of them do.

You're fortunate to have the means to keep your stable full. I'm sure you can understand why someone who can only realistically have one would desire something more special than the N55.

We don't know any real specs yet so this is all speculation. But lets say they make a good amount of hardware and software tweaks to the N55 and instead of calling it a N55XXX variant, they call it a S55XXX detuned possibly signal turbo variant, would that make you feel better?

Technically it IS a special engine because it's not a original N55 anymore.

And to me personally, driven the S55, everything is great put the sound. so yes it's a special and powerful engine but it doesn't click all the buttons for me. and I actually prefer the N55 over S55 for the M2

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

Can't wait to see the M2 comparisons, for sure. Interesting that no one else has a coupé in the segment. That, undoubtedly, contributed to BMW's decision to save costs and keep the N55 in the M2. When you've got the only option around, why squeeze your margins? Am I right?

it's not about squeezing margins... what do you do for a living? you seem to be focused on cost cutting? try instead.. Market research and market perception.

The writing was on the wall.. All the models were to go down 2 cylinders.. V10 became twin turbo 8..... V8 became twin turbo 6 in the s55... 6 cylinder N54 was going to be replaced by 4 cylinder S20 . ... til the masses complained and they killed the idea of an S20 and you got an unresolved wart instead..

BMW AG literally doesn't have the stones to bring an M2 here with a 4 cylinder S motor. They clearly floated the idea here.... but American BMW fans don't even know that BMW makes 4 cylinder motors.... and they all complained and wanted a six 6 cylinder.


As far as the CF roof... many people consider it also a huge compromise.. Conventional wisdom is " all m cars must have CF roof ". I would agree with you here... a full cycle design schedule that results in an M2 WITHOUT a CF roof vs electric sunroof option at this point would be a clear cost cutting decision.

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

It's not like this is without precedent..the US spec E36 M3 is another MASSIVE exception..... Along with the first generation MZ3 in the first couple of years..

We agree on this much at least. All of the cars mentioned there have little asterisks next to their reviews noting that the engines weren't up to the same standards as the chassis in those cars. Shame that the M2 could end up in the same boat, if you ask me.

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

You want a unique... high revving S motor... doesn't matter the # of cylinders... the simple fact is MORE buyers will complain if it doesn't have a " vaunted BMW 6 cylinder".... The simple fact is... the best chance for an S motor in the M2 was an S20... and that went down in flames early on in this forum.

The Market researched happened on these very pages.. as far as I am concerned..

I would have loved an S20..... and they also could have thrown it into an X1 M..

Yeah, that's another one of my big regrets. I participated in that poll, and had the knee jerk reaction that the car must have an I6. Obviously a mistake in hindsight. The car was never going to get the S55. That would have been a huge problem for M3/4 sales.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

We agree on this much at least. All of the cars mentioned there have little asterisks next to their reviews noting that the engines weren't up to the same standards as the chassis in those cars. Shame that the M2 could end up in the same boat, if you ask me.



Yeah, that's another one of my big regrets. I participated in that poll, and had the knee jerk reaction that the car must have an I6. Obviously a mistake in hindsight. The car was never going to get the S55. That would have been a huge problem for M3/4 sales.

well... would you believe that there was a 4 cylinder vs 6 cylinder poll in the 1M forums back in the day.... I saw the knee jerk then....too lol

And I watched you and others send the ship down on the S20... lol

which is why I'm saying... the market for this car hasn't changed. BMW could have kept making 1Ms for years... Now they have a second chance and they still have a huge segment all to themselves... including having a 6 cylinder which kinda keeps it away from people that might compare it to the STI/EVO....

BMW does NOT want to produce as many of these as they do M3/M4...and the simple fact is... if they make enough M2s to fill demand.. they probably e would...... Especially if they added an M2 Gran Coupe...

But back to reality... so YES... one way you keep the little M down is to limit the options.. the colors.... and force sales upwards to the M3/M4 where more profit is. If you want to Consider the M2 the " loss leader".... go ahead... but if it becomes an addition to the list of non S motored M cars.... I guarantee that it will still be loved by many. Look at the E36M3 and how fervent those owners are about that vehicle.... folks like our man @ ///W..

he got to hear M snobs like me with an S14 say his car wasn't an M car.....


Keep in mind when you say to someone... Have you driven an M car....? Well the E36M3 and the 1M are also on that list....
Just saying... there's still only one authority on what a real BMW M car is.. BMW M..

[Vintage]

I heard all of this crap about the N54 powered 1M. That resulted in quite a bit of egg on people's faces - many of whom are ever present again as to the M2. When I drive the M2, it is nearly certain I will be grinning from ear to ear and not bitching about a N55 power source.

Now, the CF roof, or lack there of, is another matter . . .

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by ///M_Hoonigan

We don't know any real specs yet so this is all speculation. But lets say they make a good amount of hardware and software tweaks to the N55 and instead of calling it a N55XXX variant, they call it a S55XXX detuned possibly signal turbo variant, would that make you feel better?

Technically it IS a special engine because it's not a original N55 anymore.

And to me personally, driven the S55, everything is great put the sound. so yes it's a special and powerful engine but it doesn't click all the buttons for me. and I actually prefer the N55 over S55 for the M2

Well, we know from leaked documents that the engine code will be N55B30T0, which is consistent with the 1M. Not that it really matters what the engine code is. The problem with the N55 is that it doesn't rev as freely nor have the top end of the S55. The N55 is a great motor for cars like the M235i, 335i, 435i, etc. If the S55 doesn't push your buttons, I'd love to know what attributes of the N55 do?

I really am a bit astonished by the amount of convincing it takes to persuade you guys that a warmed over N55 isn't up to the standard set by most M-cars.

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

what do you do for a living?

I'm the CTO/CIO of a company that specializes in procurement software and consulting. Thanks for taking an interest

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

it's not about squeezing margins... what do you do for a living? try instead.. Market research and market perception.

You say tom-ay-to, I say tom-ah-to. I can't prove they did it to save margins, but it seems that everyone supporting the N55 is saying, "They couldn't afford to put an S-engine in there." So which is it? Consumers definitely said they wanted an I6, but no one asked us if we wanted an N55 vs an S20. I bet the outcome of that poll would be less of a landslide.

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

The writing was on the wall.. All the models were to go down 2 cylinders.. V10 became twin turbo 8..... V8 became twin turbo 6 in the s55... 6 cylinder N54 was going to be replaced by 4 cylinder S20 . ... til the masses complained and they killed the idea of an S20 and you got an unresolved wart instead..

BMW AG literally doesn't have the stones to bring an M2 here with a 4 cylinder S motor. They clearly floated the idea here.... but American BMW fans don't even know that BMW makes 4 cylinder motors.... and they all complained and wanted a six 6 cylinder.

Now we're getting somewhere! That's really what I'm getting at. There's no need to defend BMW for making those decisions. Speak to what you want I may still end up with an M2, but I won't feel any need to rationalize away the compromises made in the development.

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

As far as the CF roof... many people consider it also a huge compromise.. " all m cars must have CF roof ".
I would agree with you here... an M2 WITHOUT a CF roof vs M sunroof option at this point would be a clear cost cutting decision

Yeah, the CF roof thing really isn't on my radar. I empathize with the people who want it, but it's a pretty recent addition to the M-car formula. It sure does look good on the M3/4 though!

[Mr_Teutonic]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

COmparison tests will feature the Merc CLA45... the Cayman GTS... and the M2... I don't know if Audi has a car ready for market..... the RS3 is coming? Cayman will be sublime and pricey..... CLA is the 4 door option that BMW and Porsche don't have...Audi will have the AWD and be best value perhaps and the BMW m2 is the best all around car for the money.

I wouldn't be surprised if Audi unveiled the TT RS at Frankfurt at the same time as the M2.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

Well, we know from leaked documents that the engine code will be N55B30T0, which is consistent with the 1M. Not that it really matters what the engine code is. The problem with the N55 is that it doesn't rev as freely nor have the top end of the S55. The N55 is a great motor for cars like the M235i, 335i, 435i, etc. If the S55 doesn't push your buttons, I'd love to know what attributes of the N55 do?

I really am a bit astonished by the amount of convincing it takes to persuade you guys that a warmed over N55 isn't up to the standard set by most M-cars.



I'm the CTO/CIO of a company that specializes in procurement software and consulting. Thanks for taking an interest



You say tom-ay-to, I say tom-ah-to. I can't prove they did it to save margins, but it seems that everyone supporting the N55 is saying, "They couldn't afford to put an S-engine in there." So which is it? Consumers definitely said they wanted an I6, but no one asked us if we wanted an N55 vs an S20. I bet the outcome of that poll would be less of a landslide.



Now we're getting somewhere! That's really what I'm getting at. There's no need to defend BMW for making those decisions. Speak to what you want I may still end up with an M2, but I won't feel any need to rationalize away the compromises made in the development.



Yeah, the CF roof thing really isn't on my radar. I empathize with the people who want it, but it's a pretty recent addition to the M-car formula. It sure does look good on the M3/4 though!

I'm glad you think I am getting somewhere... LOL I got the T shirt ... and then I bought a 1M, 4 years ago...

Agree.. Tomatoe... I just spent half the day trying to get you to realize that BMW AG already SAID they can't bring an S powered M car here for less than 60K 4 years ago.. and you are still hoping against hope for an S motor to appear in the M2... and then you are gonna write an angry letter to BMW AG when there isn't... right?

I'm gonna laugh for the rest of the evening at how YOU voted down an S motor in favor of a 6 cylinder...and yet you still think the M2 should have an S motor in it ... What's also funny is how you cling to the S motor thing.... and almost don't understand how others cling to that item.. at least it aint bespoke seats...

[OG///M]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

Well, we know from leaked documents that the engine code will be N55B30T0, which is consistent with the 1M. Not that it really matters what the engine code is. The problem with the N55 is that it doesn't rev as freely nor have the top end of the S55. The N55 is a great motor for cars like the M235i, 335i, 435i, etc. If the S55 doesn't push your buttons, I'd love to know what attributes of the N55 do?

I really am a bit astonished by the amount of convincing it takes to persuade you guys that a warmed over N55 isn't up to the standard set by most M-cars.

I can understand where you are coming from. I respect your opinion and I think it is a valid one. However I guess some of us are just not that hung up about a "possible" seemingly small difference of the overall feel the M2 will have with a N55 vs a S55

And again, maybe we should wait for it to be unveiled, reviewed and test driven before making the conclusion that it doesn't rev as freely nor have the top end of the S55. Yes it will have less power than the S55 we all know that, but the characteristics of this "reworked" N55 is still up in the air. So to say that it will falter when compared to the S55 in characteristics is premature.

Also not saying I don't like the S55, I like it a lot, just not the sound.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by Mr_Teutonic

I wouldn't be surprised if Audi unveiled the TT RS at Frankfurt at the same time as the M2.

thank you... forgot about it.... and it was in many of the comparison tests for the 1M.. that car is SO not on my radar...

[jesraele]

Originally Posted by wdeerfield

A spec'd m235i is 51-55k. i do not see the m2 coming in below 55k.

Im assuming the 55k will be only base model, fully specd m2 will probably be near 65k

[NiceGuyEddie]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

Don't make up your mind until you get a chance to drive one. The M2 is shaping up to be Pyrat 2 in all the good ways... and the bad. I know I'll catch plenty of flack for saying that, but the N54 in the 1M just wasn't that "special" by my measure. That's really weighing heavy on me as I consider what car to get next. Keep reading though!

I recently got a lot of seat time in a F80 M3 in the Blue Ridge region of Western Virginia, and the S55 just barely crosses the "special" threshold for me. I loved the car overall, but while the engine unquestionably represents a significant bump in performance, it takes a step back in terms of experience. It doesn't rev as quickly, and the sound — while sonorous — doesn't instill the same sense of excitement that comes from engines like the S65 or S54. That may not matter at all to some people, but when I buy a car, I'm hoping to enjoy all aspects of the experience. If the N55 T0 variant is the same as the T0 variant of the N54, that's a pretty big negative from my perspective. It'll have the output needed to make the car perform, but it will lack the character that I expect from an M-car.

However, swapping back and forth between my E92 and an F80 over the same roads really opened my eyes to some major upsides of the new platform. Much like the E92 M3 and E82 1M shared suspension components, the M2 is rumored to share a lot with the F8x M-cars. I plan on writing this up in detail, but the jump in confidence I felt going from my E92 to the F80 was just astounding. The chassis in the F8x cars is so incredibly well sorted, it supports extremely high hopes for the M2, even in the face of the major negative aspects (N55 engine). The F80 felt far more composed, and the drop in weight between my DCT equipped E92 and the manual F80 M3 I drove was unquestionably noticeable. I'm hoping that the extra weight difference moving down to the M2 will deliver the kind of tossable experience that I'm looking for. My experience in the F80 has me more hopeful than ever.

For you, coming from an E82, I would absolutely take your time and drive one before making any decisions. I went from an E82 to the E92 M3, and I have loved every day in the M3. The increase in focus and sharpness is noticeable, even in every day driving. Once you engage in some spirited +7/10ths driving, the difference is night and day. Where the E82 starts to keel over and lag behind your input, the M-car will stay right with you. I loved my E82 — I really did! — but the M3 has been a dream car experience for every day driving and for the times I want to push it further. It's worth the wait to find out how the M2 will strike you.

Very true words here. I went from E36 M3 to E46 M3 to E92 M3 to 1M to F82 M4, and could not agree more. The 1M is the best overall driver I have ever owned, but the engine was arguably the weakest link. While I somewhat made up for that with a BMS tune, I still expected the M4 engine to be light years ahead in terms of revs, power, and just pure visceral experience. Although the M4 engine does pull noticeably harder on the way up the tach, and swings the needle significantly higher, it just doesn't quite get all the way there for me, either. It is hard to explain - the car is really fast (and loud inside and out), and of course it doesn't sing like the N/A engines. What surprised me, though, is (stock to stock) that I actually prefer the 1M exhaust tone. There is a vid floating around somewhere of a shitpile of M cars pulling onto a track, with a 1M right in the middle, and it stands out in the best way.

So, what the hell does this have to do with the M2? I am hopeful that it combines the best attributes of the 1M and M4 in terms of overall driver experience, engine and otherwise. Keeping my eye sharply focused on the forum as we get closer to a reveal.