[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by IEDEI

I think one of the biggest fundamental challenges here is that the 135 was a much more raw and involving start than the 235 will be. The 235 is a softer, less involving, and more grown up version of the 135----so in order to make the M2 'bonkers' they will really have to bring some of that old 1-series sketchiness back.

You are right in that the new M3 and M4 are superbly engineered, etc....but will putting all of that into make it be FUN? I think a car like this really has to hit that spot! Again I think the M2 will be a superb car overall...am not doubting that for a second. The specs are good and the inspiration behind it seems sound. I just hope they make it a little bit crazy

I think it can be fun - it just depends on how it is executed. I recently traded in my DUC Monster 1100 EVO for a new 1200S. Very different philosophies at play with each bike - the 1100 was air cooled and had a lot of fun/manic character while the 1200S is more civilized, water-cooler, and much more powerful. Both are fun - but in different ways.

I think the M2 will be end up being a fun car for sure - but as you allude, there are many character differences between the E82 and F22 as a starting point. As a result, even if the M2 is truly manic, its going to be a different manic than the 1M was IMO.

And that's ok - you can use the same formula for the M2 that worked well for the 1M (as Artemis detailed above), and still get a really good result - but they're going to have different characters. At least that's my prediction.

[Bemo]

I'm calling for a hardcore M2 with a hydraulic steering rack! Let the first generation model have the electric steering. De tuned S55 and lightweight CSL like chassis, I'll put $70k on the table, for it!

If TPP passes and BMW no longer needs to incur the $500M in annual federalizations costs, we may get a CSL model for wide distribution, for the 1st time ever.

[technik330]

I don't think I even care about what the M2 may or may not be anymore; I doubt BMW would release an ///M car that couldn't meaningfully distance itself from its predecessor.

It would be a poor business decision to risk brand dilution, through poor product execution in the ///M lineup, than to properly develop their newest offering. Largely due to the M2 being designed to ramp up buyers in to higher-end ///M cars.

Have you ever noticed nicer building have fancier elevators? It's the same principle with the M2, it'll be the nicest elevator ever to get you up to the next level(s).

[nachob]

I have been agonizing about the 1M vs M2 thing because I sold my 1M and I'm number one on the list at my dealer for the M2. Since I no longer have a 1M, it has given me two years to sample all sorts of other cars and continue to come back to the 1M as being special and the M2 will be a better, faster more refined car but it won't be as special as the 1M in my humble opinion.

I think about cars that are special and they have something unique that they can hang their hat on. The 83-84 GTI, fantastic econobox. The most fun car anyone can own. It really made a class of its own.

So when car nuts think about cars that are special, what will be able to say about the M2? It was fast and handled well. Maybe handles better than F80 M3? There are lots of cars that are faster or handle better already. It will be basically be a cool new iteration of the current BMW generation.

Here is what you can say about the 1M:

It as the first turbo \\\M car and the precursor to all the current \\\M Cars.

It was BMWs first use of air curtains in a production car.

It as the last ///M car, probably the last BMW, only offered in a manual!

Additionally, there is no active sound and there is no "comfort" mode only the base "butt clenching" setting and the MDM which in the 1M stood more Man Diaper Mode.

Additionally, while sharing some other things with the E90/92 M3, it used hydraulic steering and offered with no NAV screen on top of dash.

So, I have come to a personal realization that M2 will be another awesome car like the F80 but really don't see anything long term that makes it special.

It will be offered with Automatics, NAV, Active Sound, Comfort Mode, Active Suspension, self parking, cameras, etc, etc etc. just like any other BMW out there. Remember when the 1M came out, it was not like every other BMW. It only came in manual, limited colors, no sunroof, only one interior, etc.

And it is the short development time frame which left the rough edges that made it something special.

Kay Seigler realized that perception is reality. Fun comes from your perception of speed an danger not just actual speed. You go 150 MPH in a Loriznzer S600 Biturbo and it feels like you're going 100.. you could almost doze off. Some people like dozing off but if you went 150MPH in the 1M, no way in hell you could doze off....you felt everything with it's mechanical suspension and the wind noise from the stubby unaerodynamic front end completely enveloped the cockpit and and merged with the engine growl to make for an event.

Many now are fixated solely on the numbers...if the M235i is .1 second quicker, it is a a better car ,etc. What made Seiglers realization so important is that now anyone can make a very fast car cheaply. You need to make cars that are exciting. Especially this day and age because the gas motor is dead! It's old technology so you can't put any value if the M2 is slightly faster than 1M. It doesn't matter anymore because next year some electric car will clean the clock on any gas car out there. So the pursuit of more power and speed from gas motors is futile and pointless especially if it comes at the expense of feel and fun. The only way gasoline motors will be able to compete in the near future is if they "feel" and "sound" faster.

So I still might end up with an M2...who knows but after two years of thinking about and having time away from the 1M, I have renewed appreciation for what it is.

[horsepower_and_hounds]

Word.....
Kudos nachob

[W///]

Originally Posted by nachob

I have been agonizing about the 1M vs M2 thing because I sold my 1M and I'm number one on the list at my dealer for the M2. Since I no longer have a 1M, it has given me two years to sample all sorts of other cars and continue to come back to the 1M as being special and the M2 will be a better, faster more refined car but it won't be as special as the 1M in my humble opinion.

I think about cars that are special and they have something unique that they can hang their hat on. The 83-84 GTI, fantastic econobox. The most fun car anyone can own. It really made a class of its own.

So when car nuts think about cars that are special, what will be able to say about the M2? It was fast and handled well. Maybe handles better than F80 M3? There are lots of cars that are faster or handle better already. It will be basically be a cool new iteration of the current BMW generation.

Here is what you can say about the 1M:

It as the first turbo \\\M car and the precursor to all the current \\\M Cars.

It was BMWs first use of air curtains in a production car.

It as the last ///M car, probably the last BMW, only offered in a manual!

Additionally, there is no active sound and there is no "comfort" mode only the base "butt clenching" setting and the MDM which in the 1M stood more Man Diaper Mode.

Additionally, while sharing some other things with the E90/92 M3, it used hydraulic steering and offered with no NAV screen on top of dash.

So, I have come to a personal realization that M2 will be another awesome car like the F80 but really don't see anything long term that makes it special.

It will be offered with Automatics, NAV, Active Sound, Comfort Mode, Active Suspension, self parking, cameras, etc, etc etc. just like any other BMW out there. Remember when the 1M came out, it was not like every other BMW. It only came in manual, limited colors, no sunroof, only one interior, etc.

And it is the short development time frame which left the rough edges that made it something special.

Kay Seigler realized that perception is reality. Fun comes from your perception of speed an danger not just actual speed. You go 150 MPH in a Loriznzer S600 Biturbo and it feels like you're going 100.. you could almost doze off. Some people like dozing off but if you went 150MPH in the 1M, no way in hell you could doze off....you felt everything with it's mechanical suspension and the wind noise from the stubby unaerodynamic front end completely enveloped the cockpit and and merged with the engine growl to make for an event.

Many now are fixated solely on the numbers...if the M235i is .1 second quicker, it is a a better car ,etc. What made Seiglers realization so important is that now anyone can make a very fast car cheaply. You need to make cars that are exciting. Especially this day and age because the gas motor is dead! It's old technology so you can't put any value if the M2 is slightly faster than 1M. It doesn't matter anymore because next year some electric car will clean the clock on any gas car out there. So the pursuit of more power and speed from gas motors is futile and pointless especially if it comes at the expense of feel and fun. The only way gasoline motors will be able to compete in the near future is if they "feel" and "sound" faster.

So I still might end up with an M2...who knows but after two years of thinking about and having time away from the 1M, I have renewed appreciation for what it is.

If people are looking too much into the M235i purely in terms of numbers, then I think you are mostly focusing on the options list.

Let me ask you this: Because the Ferrari 458 has nav, DCT only, has a backup camera, active suspension ect ect... does that mean it's not a special car? I doubt it.

Another example would be like saying the E36 M3 was a better driver's car because it came with halogen lights instead of the 1M's Xenons.

I'm on the side that thinks the 1M is a very special car in BMW's history. Not because it was such a limited car, but because of the way it drove. Therefore, try an M2 with no options, code out active sound, and away you go. The steering will not have as much "feel" as the 1M, it should be more accurate. The brakes will also be significantly better, lighter forged wheels from factory (even though ZCP's are beautiful, they're boat anchors) and we'll most likely get a directly mounted rear subframe. None of those things were mentioned in your post.

Until the car comes out, we're both just talking out of our asses though . I look forward to when the journalists take both the 1M and M2 out together

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by nachob

I think about cars that are special and they have something unique that they can hang their hat on. The 83-84 GTI, fantastic econobox. The most fun car anyone can own. It really made a class of its own.

The problem is that fond memories start to live a life of their own inside the mind, get slightly tweaked (embellished) and idealized as time goes by. The nostalgia process.

Your comparison with the early generation Volkswagen Golf GTI is also the one that "Top Gear" made when introducing the 1M. The 1M dynamics reminded Jeremy Clarkson to the one of the 80s VW Golf GTI. And he meant that as a compliment (here you can see it again (part [2] - see from 06:50 onwards)).

Originally Posted by nachob

It as the last ///M car, probably the last BMW, only offered in a manual!
Remember when the 1M came out, it was not like every other BMW. It only came in manual, limited colors, no sunroof, only one interior, etc.
And it is the short development time frame which left the rough edges that made it something special.

1M choices and options were as its development sequence and budget: limited. As indicated earlier, the 1M was definitely a crazy creative 'after hours' project of passionate staff at ///M, while management was spending holidays. Must have been great brainstorming sessions followed by a "C'mon, let's do it !" moment. The final version that we know, is a slightly toned down version of the very original version (put together in two weeks or even less).

Originally Posted by nachob

Kay Segler realized that perception is reality. Fun comes from your perception of speed an danger not just actual speed. You go 150 MPH in a Lorinzer S600 Biturbo and it feels like you're going 100.. you could almost doze off. Some people like dozing off but if you went 150MPH in the 1M, no way in hell you could doze off....you felt everything with it's mechanical suspension and the wind noise from the stubby unaerodynamic front end completely enveloped the cockpit and and merged with the engine growl to make for an event.

There is hope that the 'outdated' manual transmission technology may be saved from extinction as it seems to become a trending topic again for manufacturers of fast cars. They seem to have cracked the code: there is a nostalgic fanbase that considers itself hardcore brand aficionados, still preferring stick over paddles, and prepared to pay a good price for the special car. And so the brand makes the image statement that "they listened to their customers" and "that there is still a strong fanbase for manuals", whilst not formally saying that, as manuals are inevitable a fraction slower than auto/DCT/PDK, the manual might tailgate, but not pass the more expensive fastest top horse of the pack. Examples of recent 340+hp manuals: 1M (2011), Boxster Spyder (2011 + 2015), Cayman GT4 (2015), Golf R400 (2016), Alfa Romeo Giulia (2016), etc. And the list will grow longer in the future. It's like the trend in the perfume industry: over the past decade perfume manufacturers came up with so-called 'sport' versions, to increase sales (especially sell more to male customers) and improve their image.

Why do many petrol heads prefer manuals ? I guess it's because you got to work the car, you got to physically pull and push the stick and dance with both your feet. Your left feet ain't jealous of your right foot anymore. With a manual, the connection with the car is more visceral, more physical, more mechanical. Not only for the car, but also for the bones in your right arm and both your legs. No soft paddle click sending a signal to a computer to shift a gear. As I commented in another post, it feels as if the stick is an extension of your right arm (and actually it is), as if you could touch the chassis.

But, true, I perfectly understand that those using a car merely as a transport tool, rather than for driving fun, prefer the luxury of the computer doing most of the shifting job for them. And on the other side of the spectrum, quite some of those using the car on a track, prefer quicker shifting.

Originally Posted by nachob

So I still might end up with an M2...who knows but after two years of thinking about and having time away from the 1M, I have renewed appreciation for what it is.

Get an M2. It's another step forward. You won't regret it.

[NiceGuyEddie]

Originally Posted by Artemis

The problem is that fond memories start to live a life of their own inside the mind, get slightly tweaked (embellished) and idealized as time goes by. The nostalgia process.

Your comparison with the early generation Volkswagen Golf GTI is also the one that "Top Gear" made when introducing the 1M. The 1M dynamics reminded Jeremy Clarkson to the one of the 80s VW Golf GTI. And he meant that as a compliment (here you can see it again (part [2] - see from 06:50 onwards)).

1M choices and options were as its development sequence and budget: limited. As indicated earlier, the 1M was definitely a crazy creative 'after hours' project of passionate staff at ///M, while management was spending holidays. Must have been great brainstorming sessions followed by a "C'mon, let's do it !" moment. The final version that we know, is a slightly toned down version of the very original version (put together in two weeks or even less).

There is hope that the 'outdated' manual transmission technology may be saved from extinction as it seems to become a trending topic again for manufacturers of fast cars. They seem to have cracked the code: there is a nostalgic fanbase that considers itself hardcore brand aficionados, still preferring stick over paddles, and prepared to pay a good price for the special car. And so the brand makes the image statement that "they listened to their customers" and "that there is still a strong fanbase for manuals", whilst not formally saying that, as manuals are inevitable a fraction slower than auto/DCT/PDK, the manual might tailgate, but not pass the more expensive fastest top horse of the pack. Examples of recent 340+hp manuals: 1M (2011), Boxster Spyder (2011 + 2015), Cayman GT4 (2015), Golf R400 (2016), Alfa Romeo Giulia (2016), etc. And the list will grow longer in the future. It's like the trend in the perfume industry: over the past decade perfume manufacturers came up with so-called 'sport' versions, to increase sales (especially sell more to male customers) and improve their image.

Why do many petrol heads prefer manuals ? I guess it's because you got to work the car, you got to physically pull and push the stick and dance with both your feet. Your left feet ain't jealous of your right foot anymore. With a manual, the connection with the car is more visceral, more physical, more mechanical. Not only for the car, but also for the bones in your right arm and both your legs. No soft paddle click sending a signal to a computer to shift a gear. As I commented in another post, it feels as if the stick is an extension of your right arm (and actually it is), as if you could touch the chassis.

But, true, I perfectly understand that those using a car merely as a transport tool, rather than for driving fun, prefer the luxury of the computer doing most of the shifting job for them. And on the other side of the spectrum, quite some of those using the car on a track, prefer quicker shifting.

Get an M2. It's another step forward. You won't regret it.

All of this is damn good perspective and insight. I still find myself vacillating between that sense of nostalgia from my prior 1M and enjoyment and appreciation of my M4. I can't help but wonder if I would actually enjoy the 1M as much as I remember I previously did if I were to get another one. That is one of the main reasons why I am eager to experience what the M2 is made of. If it nails he sweet spot between the 1M and M4, it could be a very long term keeper.

[nachob]

People are treating Nostalgia like its a bad thing? I hope I don't have to issue an apology and go into Nostalgia Rehab. : )

I made it clear that the New cars are great but we were talking about "special". For example someone's says the the new automatic gadget laden Ferrari is special. In my nostalgia. No. It's a great car but not really that special. There are corvettes that can give it a run for it's money at 1/4 the price. In 20 years when the nostalgia sets in. It won't be special. The 1M story is special and makes the 1M have a halo that goes past what the car does. It was not perfect either. My Nostalgia does not cloud my realization that my old zhp still had better steering feel than the 1M and the throttle response is awesome in the NA zhp. The Dino 246 is selling for 400k and wasn't even a "real" Ferrari. It's not a V12 but it's special because it was named after his son who died young and both Enzo and Dino had a hand in it. My wife's golf could probably outperform it today but it's a special car and nostalgia is driving the car because it has things you can't get anymore. You can't buy a new Ferrari blessed by Enzo so now the older ones that were are special. The NSX suspension was tuned by Senna that nostalgia makes it special. Maybe the M2 will be the last M car offered with aanual and that would make it special. But for me almost every single car today has a comfort or Eco mode, iPad display and all sorts of stuff that nostalgic folk find takes away from the
Sportiness and rawness that is
Missing in today's cushy world.

So there are many great cars still being made today that might be special in the
Future but I have to decide soon as I have an opportunity to buy a
1M and I know I love it and it feels special today. I think the gt4 is a special car and if I had the
Money, allocation and no kids to drive around that would be one that I would get over 1M. But again based on the data, feelings and gutt sense, the 1M feels more special especially in the
Stripper configuration which is very rare.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by nachob

People are treating Nostalgia like its a bad thing? I hope I don't have to issue an apology and go into Nostalgia Rehab.

Not at all, nachob. Nostalgia is good. Ain't nothing wrong with dreaming or mesmerizing about positive experiences from the past. Cherishing and treasuring fond memories is definitely good.

The only thing is that traces get buried by/over time. And whenever you take a walk down into memory lane to uncover these traces, your mind may witness something even better than what the experiences used to be back in the day. Likely because it's the intentional desire to think back about those positive experiences, that the subconsciousness may give the memory about those former experiences a little extra 'feel good' swing/twist/boost.

[nachob]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Not at all, nachob. Nostalgia is good. Ain't nothing wrong with dreaming or mesmerizing about positive experiences from the past. Cherishing and treasuring fond memories is definitely good.

The only thing is that traces get buried by/over time. And whenever you take a walk down into memory lane to uncover these traces, your mind may witness something even better than what the experiences used to be back in the day. Likely because it's the intentional desire to think back about those positive experiences, that the subconsciousness may gave the memory about those former experiences a little extra 'feel good' swing/twist/boost.

Artemis, as usual you are correct, nostalgia can be a powerful aphrodisiac. To prove your point, I would not buy a 1M that has been seriously modified with tune and tracked but the new owner of my ED 1M hinted at selling it back to me. She has modified it to the hilt and tracked it regularly and I would probably take it back because the window sticker says it was made for me. My wife and I drove it all over Europe and it has nostalgic value so your point is valid and well taken. I remember back in the day everyone was adding tunes to the 1M for more power and I couldn't understand that. I wanted a tune for better throttle response in the 1M. I also wanted a tune to the base traction control that was too intrusive. I didn't like the leather seats. They were hard leather etc. But the base 1M without infotainment harkens back to a time when all the enjoyment came from just driving the car and the engine sound came from guys with hammers forming and welding exhaust systems. So you are correct, it is nostalgia that seems special because engine sound is now done on a computer but because they are all that way, I want one of these dinosaurs before they are extinct. So you are correct, I just don't think it's as bad as many think it is.

[Artemis]

Seven months since the first post. Now where are we now ?

It's Thursday afternoon in the air of December and some nostalgia thoughts surface about the 1M that's gone. But Spring is coming.