[MR.]

Originally Posted by nachob

I think on the surface yes, there are many similarities but they are sorta like comparing Woodstock Music Festival 1 with Woodstock 2. Two great events but one was not planned and became legendary. The second was better planned, probably just as fun but not quite the same.

BMW is trying to reproduce the magic and thankfully so because we need smaller car for some of us that prefer them.

For example LBB is the rollout color but I already saw it at Bimmerfest on an X6M. Valencia Orange was wholly new and initially only offered on the 1M.

The 1M came with air curtains which were developed for it to address the terrible aerodynamics after they flared the arches. All new BMWs have them now.

The 1M had a rauckous engine sound especially at cold-start that is an event and it does it without active sound foolery.

The 1M only came in a manual with no sunroof. While this is only one checkbox difference, it terms of carguyness, this is very significant. If you wanted one, you had to drive a manual. This is the last BMW ever offered in only a manual. The M2 will come in automatic too and it will be faster but the magic of the 1M is that it FELT fast and fun at any speed.

It also only came with a rather firm fixed suspension which again, if you wanted one, you wanted a firm suspension. There were no ECO or COMFORT buttons in the 1M which I'm sure will also come on the M2.
Based on how soft the M235i is, I think M2 will be softer again than the 1M too.

The 1M design team was forced to prioritize their priorities on the basics and a lot of work was left incomplete which added to it's charm. It needed more rear traction which is something that will be better on the M2 but then again it added to the bonkers character of the 1M.

I know many don't get this, but you could buy a 1M without idrive and the display on top of the dash. These rare strippers were a great option for those that want the focus of the cockpit to be driving only, not driving and infotainment. They were also lighter and the manual seats had a better, lower seating position than power seats. The M2 will already seem compromised to some with the mandatory iDrive and active sound combo.

The 1M was significantly lighter than the 135i despite having huge 19" wheels, bigger brakes and full-lock M differential. The M2, I fear will be lighter than M235i but that is so heavy already at over 3500 lbs.

I don't want to make a big deal about hydraulic steering because while I think it was better in the 1M than the new electrics I have driven so far, my old ZHP still has better feedback than the 1M in my opinion and there is a chance that the M2 electric might be better than M235i in the feedback department. It is already very precise, it just needs some more feedback.

Now where the M2 will be better I suspect is throttle response. The 1M had some lag which made throttle discipline important. The N55 has better throttle response. Another improvement should be the charge pipe which blows off the 1M in high-load situations. Also the base traction control was very intrusive and needed more work before they ran out of time. I am not sure about brakes though. I love the blue painted M calipers but not sure if they will be any better if the M2 is heavier. Also, I rather like the purposeful black no-M-logo M3 brakes. I like that look a little more than the excessive M stickers on the calipers.

So for many Woodstock 2 is better. There were more toilets, places to sleep, more security etc. The first one was a mess and you had to sleep in the mud and not shower for days. Different tastes but one is slightly more memorable already than the other. Not better, just more memorable in my humble opinion.

True fans would have gone to both...

MR

[opfreak]

I just hope that its still for sale in 3 years when my m235 lease ends.

If it turns into a true 1M where they only sell it for a few months. Then sadly it will probably always prove out of reach for me.

[bobloblaw]

Originally Posted by W///

Refreshing to see a post from someone that understands the point of an M2.

I'm much more interested in a 1M version 2.0 (thus why it's called Pyrat 2) than a mini-M4 to be honest. A very small difference, but one that matters to me.

I agree it's a good post by OP and he touches on some points that cause the rift between people who are thrilled with the info that we have, and people who are slightly disappointed at the info. When I saw that the M2 would be called Pyrat2, I thought they meant it on a broad scale, ie a small and raw M car. I didn't think of it as detailed as some others took it, such as small and raw M car, but with the same time-constrained limitations the 1M had, like 4 colors, one interior option, and tuned N55 (N54 in the 1M's case).

Just curious as to why you think it won't be like a mini-M4? It's looking like all of the M bits the M2 will have are coming straight from the M3/4, and the non-M 2 series is a pretty heavy car so I don't see the M2 being much lighter than the M3/4. Don't get me wrong, I hope you are right, but I am just wondering what the reasoning is. Unfortunately, I didn't get to drive the 1M, but it seemed to have a very different characteristic from the M3, so if the M2 were to differentiate itself in the same way that would be great.

[W///]

Originally Posted by bobloblaw

I agree it's a good post by OP and he touches on some points that cause the rift between people who are thrilled with the info that we have, and people who are slightly disappointed at the info. When I saw that the M2 would be called Pyrat2, I thought they meant it on a broad scale, ie a small and raw M car. I didn't think of it as detailed as some others took it, such as small and raw M car, but with the same time-constrained limitations the 1M had, like 4 colors, one interior option, and tuned N55 (N54 in the 1M's case).

Just curious as to why you think it won't be like a mini-M4? It's looking like all of the M bits the M2 will have are coming straight from the M3/4, and the non-M 2 series is a pretty heavy car so I don't see the M2 being much lighter than the M3/4. Don't get me wrong, I hope you are right, but I am just wondering what the reasoning is. Unfortunately, I didn't get to drive the 1M, but it seemed to have a very different characteristic from the M3, so if the M2 were to differentiate itself in the same way that would be great.

I unfortunately never got a chance to drive the 1M either. I don't even remember the last time I saw one in real life. But I did have a chance to drive the M235i and M3/4 multiple times, and on a few occasions, back to back. Even the M235i felt just more playful to me than the sterile/GT car like M3/4. Because I liked that car so much, that's why I have such high hopes for the M2.

From all the reviews of the 1M I've seen, a lot of reviewers have commented on how good of a driver's car and how much fun it is. That's really what I'm hoping the M2 will be. More about driving pleasure (remember the days when all BMW's were about this?), less about the lap times and performance number.

[KevinM]

Like most, I agree with what was posted. I don't expect too many surprises; the only wild card in my mind is availability. While I completely understand the DCT option, I'd have preferred a MT-only M2 for a number of reasons: it would have limited the car to a smaller demographic (not important at all for a large volume car, but may have significance in the case of the M2); it would have paid homage to past MT-only M cars, and realistically speaking would have been the last M car to do so (thus ceding that honor to the 1M); and it would have demonstrated there still is a market for MT. As it is, the current F8X platform (including the F87 M2) may be my last opportunity to buy a new M car with a MT! Respect for Porsche's Cayman GT4 - if it wasn't so difficult to obtain one, I might be in line.

My buddy had a 1M for a few years and I drove it frequently, up to a week at a time. That was a very fun car. I almost bought it from him; sometimes I wish I had.

[MR.]

I have driven every M car of the last few years expect the M3 GTS, but that is about it. The M235i and xDrive versions are still on my list. Going to take the M235i xDrive for a spin on Monday.

1M is a total different car from the 135i and M3 E92. Out of those three, it is most balanced vehicle. Handling of the car and its performance are the best in tune. Feels a lot like a E46 M3. Similar kind of feeling while driving it, at least that was my response to it. The grip levels are astonishing, especially if you just came out of a brand new M4.

My main hope is that we will see something with a similar set up as the 1M, a more balanced vehicle than the M4. The M4 feels overpowered and requires a lot more throttle control than the 1M. 1M is much easier to drive on the limit, because the power is more progressive in combination with the handling and the suspension set up.

It is more you and the car than the current M4 which is more the car with you. It is hard to describe, but the balance of the 1M is what gives me a huge when I drive it. With the M4 I felt annoyed after a while, the constant immense torque delivery is not what I am looking for in a BMW. If I want immediate torque I get myself a GT-R, not a BMW. With Godzilla you can launch every minute of the day as often as you want... Not like the M4 which requires 6 hours waiting time between launches :S. And since BMW is "Freude am fahren" I opt for something smaller.

MR

[Black Gold]

I'm confused by a lot of these posts. The 1m was definitely not balanced, nor did it have a lot of grip, nor was it stable.

I had one and loved it, but those characterstics weren't part of the car. The car was unstable and very oversteer happy.

The main downsides to me were throttle response on and off track, a lot of understeer in stock form, and the bad seats.

Great car, but not perfect. When you consider what you got for 47k, it was a great deal

I think most people think that considering what the m2 is apparently not coming with, it's value will be highly dependent on price. At 50-52k max, it will be a solid deal imo.

I also think that this is definitely not what I would consider a raw or enthusiast car. It is in the Bmw lineup perhaps, but not in the open market. A corvette is more of a sports car, not to get into the cayman s. Both cars are lighter, even if we assume the m2 is 3400 lbs. the cayman is almost 500 lbs lighter and mid engined. The vette has excellent cog and a low and far back engine placement. Personally I think people are going overboard on how raw / enthusiast focused this car is.

That said, this time around I think I'll be going with a cayman since it will be a second car and I want something lighter, better sound, and more dedicated

I'm still rooting for the m2

[135iDCT]

u forgot to mention the 1M came as a facelift, also the M2 will come as a facelift.

[Die ///M Rakete]

Originally Posted by M Car Chris

Hmm lot of love for the OP but it's just another thread stating the obvious and speculating late to the party? Also personally I don't see the issue with people asking if it will come in vert form, almost every other M car does now (except the X's) if we like it or not as does the non M 2 series platform it is based on?

There seems to be a huge sentiment of disrespect towards anyone wishing for something not available from the 1M. Nostalgia is great but time has moved on.

Not directly pointing this at you OP, nice post, but the levels of nostalgia building and criticism of anyone who dares to not have owned or driven the 1M is well, getting a little dull.

This. Thanks for sparing me the necessity of typing it myself Chris.

[metrickid]

Originally Posted by 135iDCT

u forgot to mention the 1M came as a facelift, also the M2 will come as a facelift.

The difference is that the 1M came out the same year as the LCI, not 18 months ahead.

[W///]

Originally Posted by Rossifumi

The difference is that the 1M came out the same year as the LCI, not 18 months ahead.

Correct. They'll pull an F80 move I suspect. Have it out for 1 year and then release the LCI a bit later.

[OrangeCrush]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

I'm confused by a lot of these posts. The 1m was definitely not balanced, nor did it have a lot of grip, nor was it stable.

I had one and loved it, but those characterstics weren't part of the car. The car was unstable and very oversteer happy.

The main downsides to me were throttle response on and off track, a lot of understeer in stock form, and the bad seats.

Great car, but not perfect. When you consider what you got for 47k, it was a great deal

I think most people think that considering what the m2 is apparently not coming with, it's value will be highly dependent on price. At 50-52k max, it will be a solid deal imo.

I also think that this is definitely not what I would consider a raw or enthusiast car. It is in the Bmw lineup perhaps, but not in the open market. A corvette is more of a sports car, not to get into the cayman s. Both cars are lighter, even if we assume the m2 is 3400 lbs. the cayman is almost 500 lbs lighter and mid engined. The vette has excellent cog and a low and far back engine placement. Personally I think people are going overboard on how raw / enthusiast focused this car is.

That said, this time around I think I'll be going with a cayman since it will be a second car and I want something lighter, better sound, and more dedicated

I'm still rooting for the m2

Yes, the 1M is not know to be a stable car. In fact, I think it tries to kill you every time you drive it..LOL!

The M2 might end up being a "raw" sports car but I doubt it. It seems people are labeling it as such because of the limited color and interior choices, which is not what makes a car "raw".

Having said that, I want one to be sitting next to my 1M in the garage in a couple of years.

[Gibson6594]

Originally Posted by OrangeCrush

Yes, the 1M is not know to be a stable car. In fact, I think it tries to kill you every time you drive it..LOL!

The M2 might end up being a "raw" sports car but I doubt it. It seems people are labeling it as such because of the limited color and interior choices, which is not what makes a car "raw".

Having said that, I want one to be sitting next to my 1M in the garage in a couple of years.

What differences between the 1 and the 2 do you think will exist that would make the 2 less raw? Seriously asking.

[Hazey82]

I'm hoping the M2 will slot in between the 1M and M4 as far as usable power and handling characteristics. Longer wheelbase than 1M to address the snappy oversteer characteristic of 1M, smaller size and more usable power than that of the M4.

[OrangeCrush]

Originally Posted by Gibson6594

What differences between the 1 and the 2 do you think will exist that would make the 2 less raw? Seriously asking.

1. Electronic steering (can't be helped but it's part of the car)
2. Mandatory power seats in M2.
3. Mandatory navigation in M2.
4. 1M had one suspension setting, stiff as shit. I don't think this will be so on the M2.
5. The 1M had a lot, if not all of the sound insulation removed allowing the driver to hear all mechanical sounds. (When I say all, I mean all!!!)
6. Droning exhaust which I happen to like.
7. The 1M had snap oversteer caused by the short wheel base, massive surge of torque, and limited time frame to dial in the suspension.

Don't read this as complaining (with the exception of 2 and 3), I just think the combination of these things added to the "raw" experience in the 1M.

Like I said before, I want to get an M2 and I think it will be an awesome car but I think it will have some of the 1M "issues" dialed out for the masses. I remember a some people complaining about the exhaust drone and stiff suspension. I'm sure those will be fixed in this iteration. The longer wheel base will remove some of the crazyness of the 1M but it will instill more confidence in the corners allowing for a faster car.

In short, I think they both are/will be great cars...just different.

[spellbmw]

Originally Posted by LinkF1

Great post and I tend to agree. Those who want a 2015 1M are going to get almost exactly what they want. Those that are looking for a mini-M4 are going to be disappointed in many ways. My father has an E46 M3, I have a 135i, I want a car that has the torque of the 135 and the character of the E46. That car was the 1M, but I was 2 years late to that party, I am making sure I am not late to this second iteration.

I also have a 130 5I: 2010 model year. I had the option to pick up a 1M from the local dealership when the guy who ordered it decided he didn't want it. I went to look at it and it was all black: everything was black. I said no and I'm glad I did. If it had been a Valencia orange, it would be in my garage right now

[Artemis]

As previously commented: look at the past to be inspired for the future:

• E82 1M (2011):
  3 body colors (2 monochrome + 1 color: AW, BSM, VO [launch color]), 1 interior color (black with orange accent stitching), technically upgraded N-series engine (N54), 340hp, 500Nm (450+50Nm overboost) torque, E9X M3 underpinnings (track/suspension/brakes), no CF or moon roof, limited options, no BMW Individual (BMW Leipzig factory), manual transmission only, limited production (1 year) and limited availability.
• F87 M2 base version (2015):
  4 body colors (3 monochrome + 1 color: AW, BSM, MG and LBB [launch color]), 1 interior color (black with blue accent stitching), technically upgraded N-series engine (N55), 365hp, 500Nm (465+35Nm overboost) torque, M4 underpinnings (track/suspension/brakes), no CF or moon roof, limited options, no BMW Individual (BMW Leipzig factory), manual transmission available too (DCT optional), likely limited availability (though so far no limited production, except if BMW changes its mind).

To OP: also these threads might interest you:

• http://www.2addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1127010 ("Emulating the 1M sobriety success formula with the M2")
• http://www.2addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1046767 ("When lightning strikes, thunder will follow: impact of the M2 on the M235i and M3/M4")
• http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showp...7&postcount=25 (tongue-in-cheek post about some peculiarities of the 1M - let's see if these also apply to the M2)

[Papethova]

Originally Posted by nachob

I think on the surface yes, there are many similarities but they are sorta like comparing Woodstock Music Festival 1 with Woodstock 2. Two great events but one was not planned and became legendary. The second was better planned, probably just as fun but not quite the same.

BMW is trying to reproduce the magic and thankfully so because we need smaller car for some of us that prefer them.

For example LBB is the rollout color but I already saw it at Bimmerfest on an X6M. Valencia Orange was wholly new and initially only offered on the 1M.

The 1M came with air curtains which were developed for it to address the terrible aerodynamics after they flared the arches. All new BMWs have them now.

The 1M had a rauckous engine sound especially at cold-start that is an event and it does it without active sound foolery.

The 1M only came in a manual with no sunroof. While this is only one checkbox difference, it terms of carguyness, this is very significant. If you wanted one, you had to drive a manual. This is the last BMW ever offered in only a manual. The M2 will come in automatic too and it will be faster but the magic of the 1M is that it FELT fast and fun at any speed.

It also only came with a rather firm fixed suspension which again, if you wanted one, you wanted a firm suspension. There were no ECO or COMFORT buttons in the 1M which I'm sure will also come on the M2.
Based on how soft the M235i is, I think M2 will be softer again than the 1M too.

The 1M design team was forced to prioritize their priorities on the basics and a lot of work was left incomplete which added to it's charm. It needed more rear traction which is something that will be better on the M2 but then again it added to the bonkers character of the 1M.

I know many don't get this, but you could buy a 1M without idrive and the display on top of the dash. These rare strippers were a great option for those that want the focus of the cockpit to be driving only, not driving and infotainment. They were also lighter and the manual seats had a better, lower seating position than power seats. The M2 will already seem compromised to some with the mandatory iDrive and active sound combo.

The 1M was significantly lighter than the 135i despite having huge 19" wheels, bigger brakes and full-lock M differential. The M2, I fear will be lighter than M235i but that is so heavy already at over 3500 lbs.

I don't want to make a big deal about hydraulic steering because while I think it was better in the 1M than the new electrics I have driven so far, my old ZHP still has better feedback than the 1M in my opinion and there is a chance that the M2 electric might be better than M235i in the feedback department. It is already very precise, it just needs some more feedback.

Now where the M2 will be better I suspect is throttle response. The 1M had some lag which made throttle discipline important. The N55 has better throttle response. Another improvement should be the charge pipe which blows off the 1M in high-load situations. Also the base traction control was very intrusive and needed more work before they ran out of time. I am not sure about brakes though. I love the blue painted M calipers but not sure if they will be any better if the M2 is heavier. Also, I rather like the purposeful black no-M-logo M3 brakes. I like that look a little more than the excessive M stickers on the calipers.

So for many Woodstock 2 is better. There were more toilets, places to sleep, more security etc. The first one was a mess and you had to sleep in the mud and not shower for days. Different tastes but one is slightly more memorable already than the other. Not better, just more memorable in my humble opinion.

Exactly why the 1M stays in the garage most days, coming out for some of the fun days and the M2 is a pseudo daily driver that can be used for the other half of the fun days.

[BLK235iNJ]

Nice write up!

[nachob]

Originally Posted by MR.

True fans would have gone to both...

MR

Sometimes, you can't do both, you can only go to or have 1 and have to decide. I made my choice yesterday. I know the M2 will be a better car but after careful consideration, the 1M is a better car for me and what I value in a car. I will not be street racing any DCT M2s or anything else for that matter. Just rowing the gears, listening to the analog exhaust drone, getting rattled by rough roads with the analog suspension and finding my way to California with my iphone nav.....and loving every minute of it!

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by nachob

Sometimes, you can't do both, you can only go to or have 1 and have to decide. I made my choice yesterday. I know the M2 will be a better car but after careful consideration, the 1M is a better car for me and what I value in a car. I will not be street racing any DCT M2s or anything else for that matter. Just rowing the gears, listening to the analog exhaust drone, getting rattled by rough roads with the analog suspension and finding my way to California with my iphone nav.....and loving every minute of it!

I know another fellow that made the same decision this week and picked up a VO car as well.

Congrats and welcome back ! :-))

[LOVEM]

Congrats !
Nacho