[Pete_vB]

Originally Posted by FTS

I agree with your points on the M2, the Cayman and to some degree with the 911; however, respectfully, just like many of us, emotionally you are confusing yourself in one area I think.

You know very well that a car's street credentials mostly don't translate into track credentials. If the playful nature of a car combined with some practicality and usability is what you are looking for, I think the M2 will be hard to better by any Cayman or any 911.

I highly doubt and never seen a BMW perform better at the track than any Porsche of same era, may be my historical knowledge does not go far back enough. As we are seeing with the current F10, F13 F8x M series, once these cars get above a certain power to weight ratio, the rear end cannot keep enough traction due to that 'perfect' weight distribution BMW claims. As you mention, the Cayman and particularly the 911 has a much more mature and advantageous weight distribution for track performance and 911s rear suspension and latest gadgets (dynamic engine and transmission mounts) keep making it better. But that's for the track, I don't think any of that matters that much from a driving enjoyment perspective on the street. On the contrary, on the street, I think the Bimmers offer more lively and entertaining driving feel. Of course this is different for each person, but I believe people that have truly sampled the Porsches can relate to this, not the ones who have been visiting the marque as a tourist.

IMHO, the 911 and its GT3 variant has passed a point in which you really cannot savior its abilities on the street. And given its price point, it is no longer an attractive choice for me even as a dual-purpose car. As I was shopping for a new car this summer having been a Porsche customer for over 10 years, I just could not get excited with the Cayman GTS, nor the GT3. When I test drove the M3/4 however, it had a little bit of a hooligan attitude on the street that somehow appealed to me. I was not expecting to like the car and had never thought of getting a BMW, but it did and I ordered one. I am awaiting for delivery and a new adventure.

For track purposes, what's the point? I never won the DE championship regardless of Caymans or GT3 I had, so if I can get 80% of the enjoyment I got from those cars with an M4 (or even M2) for 50% of the price of a GT3, I think it is a great deal. We'll see of course, right now I am making a lot of assumptions.

Coming back to my initial point, if the M2 is going to be playful enough for street, and you have other means of tracking/racing, how would a Cayman GTS/GT4, 911 GT3 or even the F-type make more sense particularly given their price points? It is hard to find a more suitable car for daily driving than the current M cars in my opinion, and I am not even a BMW fan

Great post, and very good points.

It's a fundamental question we all face now, where to optimize our cars for. Modern cars are already generally too quick to fully enjoy on US streets, and that includes the M cars. For a weekend blast in some cases yes, but making the car better for that often makes it less fun day to day. And optimizing a car for the track can be even worse.

In light of this the best street cars are changelings, with the breadth of ability to be multiple cars in one and do many things well.

I imagine the landscape as a map. Different types of cars occupy different areas:

Older Porsches often fill out the "slower, involvement" corner very well- think 356. My most fun street car is a 1969 912 with sticky, skinny tires, great suspension, and enough power to get the tail moving whenever I'd like it to. Epic at street speeds on a curvy road or vintage rallies, but outclassed at the track and not exactly comfortable.

Slide sideways on the map and you'll get "slower, comfort"- Cadillac or Lexus, for example.

On the top side of the map you get "fast, involvement". I've got a powerful old '911' that's far too much for the street for this position, or something like a GT2 (love the 993)- epic with huge playgrounds, but scary fast and requiring space.

Finally slide sideways from this and you'll have "fast, comfort"- something like a modern 4wd Porsche Turbo, which can go quickly regardless of weather, but brings in much of the comfort of the S Class with it.

A car doesn't occupy a point on this map, but rather an area. But it's difficult to improve in one area without sacrificing in another. Make a car faster and you'll often sacrifice comfort, low speed fun or both, so you need to decide what's important. To do that you first need to ask how you'll use the car.

What I think we're both suggesting is that the M2 and GT4 will occupy different areas on this map, the M2 being perhaps more towards comfort and low speed fun, the Cayman GT4 above it and perhaps less comfortable/ more involving.

Judged purely as a US street car I agree, and I'm tempted to go with the M2 because of this. However to really use either of these I'll need to visit the track and autocross occasionally, and when I do I expect the GT4 to be far superior. Still inferior in that area to the GT3, mind you, but that is as you point out so fast that it can't often be enjoyed on the street.

The decider for me will likely be how much area the cars end up covering, then fitting those areas in between other areas on the map I already have covered, as well as my bias to be towards sacrificing some "comfort" for "involvement".

I agree that modern Porsches are in danger of getting too fast to enjoy on the street. However they are also in danger of being too 'slow' to compete in the power war with the likes of AMG, Corvette, etc. Thus they are getting squeezed from both sides. The GT4 may be one indication of how they handle it...

[FTS]

Thank you, this is good discussion

Originally Posted by Pete_vB

What I think we're both suggesting is that the M2 and GT4 will occupy different areas on this map, the M2 being perhaps more towards comfort and low speed fun, the Cayman GT4 above it and perhaps less comfortable/ more involving.

Judged purely as a US street car I agree, and I'm tempted to go with the M2 because of this. However to really use either of these I'll need to visit the track and autocross occasionally, and when I do I expect the GT4 to be far superior. Still inferior in that area to the GT3, mind you, but that is as you point out so fast that it can't often be enjoyed on the street.

Yes, we are almost saying the same things. Maybe one exception for me: Although the GT4 will be superior to the M2 in many ways on a very spirited back roads drive, autox and track, will it be enough to justify its price compared to the M2? The 981/987/997/991 platforms truly have something special that Porsche keeps including into the cars, which no other car has IMO. Some of us want that ce-nes-pas-quo special core element and we'll pay for it at the levels Porsche will ask for it. But once you understand what that is and experience it, although it instills deep respect, the allure dims; at least for me it did.

If you look to all of us the Porsche fanatics (I am less so nowadays), the only truly fanatic is probably Mooty. Even @Nizer got an M3 for dd, Trackcar is always on the fence, and we lost Savyboy permanently. Joking aside, there is truth in that Porsche is most vulnerable right now for many of the reasons you listed.

For me the GT3 was special, I had the 997.2 and part of that special core was its historical linkage to the glory days. Driving a car every day with all of its idiosyncrasies was actually attractive and put a simile on my face due to that glorious engine, transmission, weight balance and the motorsports link. Now with the 991 that motorsport link has been broken, so what are we left with? A great engineering achievement, that's it. I found myself questioning its value and the price point just did not make sense anymore to me.

Originally Posted by Pete_vB

The decider for me will likely be how much area the cars end up covering, then fitting those areas in between other areas on the map I already have covered, as well as my bias to be towards sacrificing some "comfort" for "involvement".

I agree that modern Porsches are in danger of getting too fast to enjoy on the street. However they are also in danger of being too 'slow' to compete in the power war with the likes of AMG, Corvette, etc. Thus they are getting squeezed from both sides. The GT4 may be one indication of how they handle it...

As for the GT4, I have been going back and forth on putting a deposit. The issue is knowing that the 981 platform will not have the multilink rear suspension and subframe configuration, so regardless of its power, it will be held back exactly at the place that it is supposed to shine, the track! Now if the compromise of having this sub-optimal configuration is a significant price discount over the GT3, say base being $90K, I am in, I'll take that compromise. Otherwise, I'll compromise a little further back, and the M3/4 or particularly the M2 will make a lot more sense to me

[DVC]

Great discussion going here... It's cool to have contributing members with so much Porsche knowledge to add to the mostly BMW-based info on this forum.

In keeping with the tone of the this M2 v. GT4 thread, I'm curious how some of the other Porsches would factor into this discussion. Focus has been on 911 GT3 and Cayman GT4; what about a standard 911 or 911S? (Current model, or one from a few years ago that could be picked up on the used market for M2-like dollars.) Does the standard 911 have multi-link rear suspension, and if so would it stand above the Cayman GT4 on the track, while still being more practical as a daily driver?

[FTS]

With Porsche within a same model code, e.g. 981, 987, 997, 991, etc. all models have the same chassis, meaning same body in white (with minor changes between narrow and wide bodies), same suspension (with some changes with the GT version - adjustable stuff), same steering mechanisms, transmissions (with some changes again for GT models), etc. So, in short since 997s all 911s have had multi-link suspensions (isn't it getting crazy with all these chassis and model codes? ).

Given that and due to its weight balance (some say imbalance), any 911 is better than any Cayman or Boxster (many will argue otherwise with various valid points). But none of those models are as special than any GT model (exception in my book is the GTS models), again in my opinion. With that said, I believe that a Cayman GT4 will be better Porsche than any run of the mill 911, but not as good as GT2/3/RS, etc.

The thing that trumps all of the above with the 991 models, once again for me, is how they built, configured and positioned the 991 GT3 vs. 991 Turbo. I sincerely hope that the 991 GT3 RS (if it is actually released as a 991) takes back the performance from the 991 Turbo, but I have no faith left in me

[DVC]

@FTS - good info, thanks. Still trying to reconcile this bit though...

Originally Posted by FTS

Given that [since 997s all 911s have had multi-link suspensions] and due to its weight balance (some say imbalance), any 911 is better than any Cayman or Boxster ... With that said, I believe that a Cayman GT4 will be better Porsche than any run of the mill 911...

Even without multi-link rear suspension, I'm sure the Cayman GT4 will be very good. But I'd think that if this design is somewhat limiting to it's performance (even if only minor, and only realized when pushed close to its limits), that it would always be a bit of a handicap compared to the 911 - even a run-of-the-mill one - in terms of suspension performance. And I doubt if this is something that can even be "upgraded" to get it on par with it's big brother. (Speaking as someone who has spent a lot of money on a 335i - resulting in a car that is very much improved, but still not an M3 - for my next car, I'd like to start with the platform that I really want rather than trying to upgrade my way into it. ; )
My track interest (and number of days) is growing each year - but my next car will still need to be reasonably daily driver-practical. Since the high end of my budget will be in the 70k range, a new 911 (even a run-of-the-mill one, so certainly a GT derivative) is out. But in a few years I may be able to find a nice used 991 911/S in this range. And if that is the superior Porsche platform to start with (and even improve somewhat with a few mods here and there over time), then I would strongly consider this as an alternative to a new M2.

[FTS]

I think I took the discussion in the wrong direction, which I am guilty of doing often. The truth is the Cayman is a superb sports car platform. It is one of the best to start tasting what a driver's car in modern day is and excellent for beginners and intermediate drivers DE car. I have been driving competitively on and off for nearly 25 years, but I learned how to actually drive a car on track with the Cayman. The limits of the Cayman are very high, but not as high as the 911; it takes time to get to the limits consistently.

I recommend to any one who has never owned a Porsche to have a go at it at least once. However, don't be a tourist, buy one in your budget, any one, keep it for several years, drive it daily, drive it on the track, immerse yourself in all that it has to offer, understand how it offers all that, then truly decide whether it is for you or not; in short don't buy because of the hype nor for fashion, have it to experience it fully, join the PCA, do the social and track events, etc.

The way to buy one is to be mindful of options that won't enhance the experience. Don't get anything the car does not need; e.g. full leather (Porsche interior materials are far more upscale than BMW), rear wipers, deviating stitching, even PCCBs, PTV, etc. Do get the X73 suspension though, best bargain IMO. It is too easy to price yourself out of a car with Porsche. Then just drive the hell out of it.

What I was discussing with Pete is the little details that get under my skin with Porsche lately and that I am scratching it off with a BMW in anger Otherwise, nothing I have written here should be taken a major knock on the Cayman or any 911, they have their limitations just like any car and brand.

[Robert]

Two cars represents two very different style of driving. The end lap times "may" be close but the inspiration behind the two car are so drastic they are apples to oranges. Personally, the aesthetic of cayman beats out 2 series any day, it's has a timeless classical sports car profile as oppose to stance of a testostrone injected bull dog.

I owned a one series before, the interior feels distinctly budget but the cayman, even though an entry porsche, always feel plush and upscale. In a BMW you'll have to up the ladder until a 5 series to get the same build quality. Both will put a grin on driver's face though.

[cc3]

Anyone put a deposit on a M2 or Cayman GT4 yet??

[ORIGIN M.]

Originally Posted by cc3

Anyone put a deposit on a M2 or Cayman GT4 yet??

Two completely different buyers.

/ Thread !

[BMW269]

Originally Posted by red-sauerkraut

Two completely different buyers.

/ Thread !

Why? If the buyer can afford both but needs only one, he'll cross-shop them. Why? Because both the M2 and the Cayman GT4 are the smallest yet highest performing vehicles, the M2 being more practical, the Cayman GT4 a true sports car. 4C and Lotus are more some kind of toys, anything else is more a status car. GT86 just lacks performance for a skilled driver that wants to go faster.

GT86/Lotus < M2/Cayman < 911/Supercar.

[ORIGIN M.]

Originally Posted by Levi

Why? If the buyer can afford both but needs only one, he'll cross-shop them. Why? Because both the M2 and the Cayman GT4 are the smallest yet highest performing vehicles, the M2 being more practical, the Cayman GT4 a true sports car. 4C and Lotus are more some kind of toys, anything else is more a status car. GT86 just lacks performance for a skilled driver that wants to go faster.

GT86/Lotus &lt; M2/Cayman &lt; 911/Supercar.

I doubt anybody with enough doe to buy that P-Car will care less about the silly M2.

[cc3]

Originally Posted by red-sauerkraut

Two completely different buyers.

/ Thread !

Really? I have a 1M and a Cayman GT4 on order. Will keep both

[vantagesc]

There are already three regulars on this M2 forum with GT4 deposits. I agree that the cars fill slightly different needs, but that doesn't stop people from wanting cool cars...

[as7920]

Originally Posted by cc3

Really? I have a 1M and a Cayman GT4 on order. Will keep both

Nice!

[DVC]

Originally Posted by FTS

...the Cayman is a superb sports car platform. It is one of the best to start tasting what a driver's car in modern day is and excellent for beginners and intermediate drivers DE car ... The limits of the Cayman are very high, but not as high as the 911; it takes time to get to the limits consistently.

I recommend to any one who has never owned a Porsche to have a go at it at least once. However, don't be a tourist, buy one in your budget, any one, keep it for several years, drive it daily, drive it on the track, immerse yourself in all that it has to offer, understand how it offers all that, then truly decide whether it is for you or not; in short don't buy because of the hype nor for fashion, have it to experience it fully, join the PCA, do the social and track events, etc.

Good advice, I think. I have driven both the Cayman S and 911 S on a track - but only as a tourist (I like that analogy : )
As I mentioned above, I am already thinking a couple years ahead to my next car, which gives me plenty of time (too much, really) to think through the decision thoroughly... the idea being that I put money toward something that I can hold onto long term, and not feel down the road that I wish I had started off in a different platform - one without inherent limitations. (That's what really caught my attention as this thread developed; I didn't realize that the rear suspension on the Cayman was a limiting factor as skill and speed climb to advanced levels.) Whether it's an M2 or a used 911 (I like the idea of a 911 a bit more than a Cayman because I could squeeze my kids into the back seat at least for a little while), I'd like something that will work as a daily driver that sees some track time for a few years, with the potential to slowly progress into a more serious, dedicated track car years down the road. At BMW CCA DEs, I've seen an awful lot of M3s that have evolved precisely in this regard, and the M2 seems like it would fit nicely into this plan. But maybe a used 991 911 would be an even better fit.

Originally Posted by FTS

The way to buy one is to be mindful of options that won't enhance the experience. Don't get anything the car does not need; e.g. full leather (Porsche interior materials are far more upscale than BMW), rear wipers, deviating stitching, even PCCBs, PTV, etc. Do get the X73 suspension though, best bargain IMO. It is too easy to price yourself out of a car with Porsche. Then just drive the hell out of it.

I was reading about some of the options, and PTV stood out as a bit odd. In utilizing braking of one of the rear wheels, it almost reminds me of BMWs e-LSD... which I don't like in the least. (I added a mechanical LSD to my car straight away.) Do the 991s have a mechanical LSD as standard anymore, or is PTV it? Also, I didn't see any X73 suspension option - is this a passive suspension, or a derivative of PASM/PDCC? I imagine the Sport Chrono package is a huge plus... Any other recommended options to seek out?

[vantagesc]

On Caymans, X73 is sport suspension. It's passive and not PASM.

On 911s, you can only get PASM, but there is a sport PASM option.

[sdpauly]

PTV includes a mechanical LSD as well as the computer-controlled braking tech.

For a ~1400 option, it seems very worthwhile.

[ORIGIN M.]

Originally Posted by cc3

Really? I have a 1M and a Cayman GT4 on order. Will keep both

That's understandable as the 1M is a low number car. Otherwise it seems pointless.

[DVC]

Originally Posted by sdpauly

PTV includes a mechanical LSD as well as the computer-controlled braking tech.

For a ~1400 option, it seems very worthwhile.

Wow, no LSD without the PTV option? I would never forgo an LSD on a car with sporting intentions...

[FTS]

Originally Posted by DVC

...the idea being that I put money toward something that I can hold onto long term, and not feel down the road that I wish I had started off in a different platform - one without inherent limitations.

I suspect you are looking for a late model vehicle, if not I would recommend the 1983 911 SC, 964 RSA or 1998 993 911 C2. If you are looking for a late model, starting out with a 997 911 or 991 911, base is not a bad choice. Frankly, a 981 Cayman (base) would be even better despite its limitations just because of the price differences, and turning the 981 to a track car is much less costly.

Originally Posted by DVC

I didn't realize that the rear suspension on the Cayman was a limiting factor as skill and speed climb to advanced levels.)

This relates to the above: Cayman has bigger limitations in comparison to the 911, however, it is still a wonderful car and very track capable. The 981 CS is still faster on the track than an e92 M3 stock for stock. Its all relative

Originally Posted by DVC

I'd like something that will work as a daily driver that sees some track time for a few years, with the potential to slowly progress into a more serious, dedicated track car years down the road.

I was reading about some of the options, and PTV stood out as a bit odd. ...Any other recommended options to seek out?

The best platform to start that adventure is the GT3 IMHO, however, a base 911 or Cayman will do just fine as well as I mentioned above. One of the wonderful things about Porsche models is many things are interchangeable between models, even if decade aparts. Look at Pete, a 997 Cup Motor in a 911 of very early years, I cannot even imagine the level of fun he is having at the track with it. Engines, transmissions, suspension components, interior stuff are mostly interchangeable between base 911 and GT3 or Cayman. So, getting a base car and moving it up is very possible and I believe it costs less to do so than other brands that I know.

PTV is very controversial for me. I really do not like that Porsche is incorporating increasing amount of electronics that make decisions instead of me. Unfortunately I have had personal experiences with very negative consequences in this regard, hence I just cannot get over the fact that the ABS will brake a single corner without my input. The modern ABS already varies the brake pressure per corner without any input from me, and now even if I do not touch the brake pedal it may still brake for me thinking it knows more than me about what I am doing or about to do; utterly ridiculous!

The Porsche LSD is also useless for track purposes, if you feel you will need an LSD, GT Gears is the perfect place to have a custom one built for your Porsche and will last a lot longer.

The other option I would buy, but not recommend to others, is PDK. It is really good, not perfect, but really good. It is a personal choice, and I'll take mine with a PDK or DCT

Frankly, in couple of years the new models will be so much more compelling, none of the above will matter.

[onatuesday]

FTS, why is the rear-engine 911 a better track car (in theory) than the mid-engine Cayman? Let's say both had identical power outputs and options, shouldn't the mid-engine Cayman be the better track car. I believe that's what Pete was alluding to right? Theoretically, the 911 would take a more skilled driver to keep up with the Cayman IF power output was the same. Or am I missing something?

[FTS]

@trinim3, I don't think so. The static weight balance of the 911 is perfect, 37%f/63%r. This gives you best dynamic weight advantage, on the rear axle, during corner exit. Under braking the dynamic weight balance is better than any other configuration, nearly equal on all four wheels. At 1G braking 911's balance is about 57%f/43%r. The only compromise points for the 911 are off-throttle and mid-corner, it will understeer.

I find the 911 is actually easier to drive, easier to approach its limits more consistently. In the Cayman, as Pete mentioned, it is very easy to get to about 8/10th, but driving 9 or 10/10th is... well saying difficult just does not quite cut it IMO. The mid-engine is snappier, the rear-engine 911 is very easy to control beyond the limits and bring it back within its limits requires gentle steering input, modulated throttle and you are off

In my experience, most people that struggle with the 911 on the track are the ones that really forget the fundamentals. You don't need to be a professional racer to figure out the 911, just making sure that you keep the weight and attitude of the car where it needs to be and coordinate multiple inputs simultaneously; e.g. steering, throttle/brakes, vision.

There is one more weakness in the street-based 911; the front tires, there isn't enough and unfortunately Porsche's stock fenders are not wide enough to put 265,+ tires. So many people, if rules allow, change to cup fenders, bigger front tires make a huge difference. The Cayman being mid-engine, I don't think needs that much front tire in relation to the rears, so I think it is an advantage, 255s work superbly on that.

The 911 has the most winningest sprint and endurance championships record in history. That history is full of wins against many and many mid-engine cars, that is not by accident