[f32458]

Unfortunately, I am currently in Taiwan for a few months and I won't be back in L.A till June. There is no test drive available locally here. I will try to get a ride or even a drive in my former AMG group. Why am I comparing A45 with M235i? These two little beast has the same price tag, while CLA45 is 12k USD more. Everyone's been telling me to get A45 since it's a true AMG and it smokes the M235i. I have watched several reviews on youtube M135i vs A45. It seems the merc smokes the M135i. Both are very good cars. How about real world driving experience? I am leaning towards the M235i since I like BMW in general.

[GoingTooFast]

Originally Posted by BMoney

And for the record I don't agree with much of what GTF is saying!

It would be nice if you could elaborate otherwise it may feel that it's only a personal matter... like so many remarks over here.

What do you disagree with?

[GoingTooFast]

To put it on numbers... the difference on throttle response quality between a modern 2.0-liter turbocharged 4 cyl. engine and a modern 3.0-liter turbocharged 6 cyl. engine is NOT meaningful enough to justify the engine's weight disadvantage of the latter which is far more important for a SPORTIER car's dynamics general perception and real effectiveness:

Engines dry weight (these figures are based on the available information and therefore may not be coincident with the official figures from the brands, they can work as guidelines nevertheless)

BMW N54/N55 -> 195 kg (6 cyl.) 340 hp/320 hp

BMW N20 -------> 138 kg (4 cyl.) 240 hp

Mercedes M133 -> 148 kg (4 cyl.) 360 hp


Bottom line, modern turbocharged 4 cyl. engine weight advantage more than outweighs present throttle response quality disadvantage to its 6 cyl. counterpart, more so if we take into consideration that additional measures, like a sequential twin-turbocharged arrangement, can be implemented to reduce turbo-lag even further.

[pikcachu]

can you add the Nissan GT-R engine to your analysis? it's a 6cil twin turbo isn't it?

or the M4 engine for that matter too.... I'd like to see how that one outweights the throttle response

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by GoingTooFast

To put it on numbers... the difference on throttle response quality between a modern 2.0-liter turbocharged 4 cyl. engine and a modern 3.0-liter turbocharged 6 cyl. engine is NOT meaningful enough to justify the engine's weight disadvantage of the latter which is far more important for a SPORTIER car's dynamics general perception and real effectiveness.

No one is telling you that you have to buy an M235i. What I disagree with is that you state the outcome as some kind of fact, when it's really a matter of preference. What's hilarious is that you're clinging to these "facts" as if you literally birthed the M133 alone in the dark on some stormy night in southern Louisiana... or something.

[Lucky13]

GTF, please go buy the Mercedes so we can close this thread and not have to see you talk to yourself and answer your own responses. It's a fucking car, if you like the Mercedes great so buy it and shut the fuck up. I doubt if all the M235 owners are going on the Mercedes forum and wasting their time. If I wanted a 4 door car with all wheel drive I might give a shit but it's like comparing apples and oranges.

[GoingTooFast]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

No one is telling you that you have to buy an M235i. What I disagree with is that you state the outcome as some kind of fact, when it's really a matter of preference.

No, it's not just a question of preference because that would mean a brand couldn't improve or take better options in order to offer superior quality products than the competition. It would mean there wasn't competition to start with. However, we know that is not true nor desirable as competition is the fundamental aspect for progress to take place and it starts precisely by the confrontation of different ideas and motivations about common subjects.

Thus, when a car brand presents itself to the general public, and not to their unconditional fans only, with such bold statements like "Sheer Driving Pleasure" and "Efficient Dynamics" for sure one is entirely entitled to question whether the brand is up to those claims or not, whether they are on the right path or not, and even to suggest, as a longstanding customer, what the best path should be in order to fulfill those goals and beat the competition.

That's where I've always been standing.

[W///]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

No one is telling you that you have to buy an M235i. What I disagree with is that you state the outcome as some kind of fact, when it's really a matter of preference. What's hilarious is that you're clinging to these "facts" as if you literally birthed the M133 alone in the dark on some stormy night in southern Louisiana... or something.

He must have birthed the M133 after he birthed the Alfa 4C.

P.S Yes that's all I have to contribute to this thread

[SuitedUp]

Auto Anorexia. I didn't know it existed until now.

[GoingTooFast]

The importance of a 4 cyl. engine for "Sheer Driving Pleasure":

Originally Posted by GoingTooFast

To put it on numbers... the difference on throttle response quality between a modern 2.0-liter turbocharged 4 cyl. engine and a modern 3.0-liter turbocharged 6 cyl. engine is NOT meaningful enough to justify the engine's weight disadvantage of the latter which is far more important for a SPORTIER car's dynamics general perception and real effectiveness:

Engines dry weight (these figures are based on the available information and therefore may not be coincident with the official figures from the brands, they can work as guidelines nevertheless)

BMW N54/N55 -> 195 kg (6 cyl.) 340 hp/320 hp

BMW N20 -------> 138 kg (4 cyl.) 240 hp

Mercedes M133 -> 148 kg (4 cyl.) 360 hp


Bottom line, modern turbocharged 4 cyl. engine weight advantage more than outweighs present throttle response quality disadvantage to its 6 cyl. counterpart, more so if we take into consideration that additional measures, like a sequential twin-turbocharged arrangement, can be implemented to reduce turbo-lag even further.

The importance of a 4 cyl. engine for "Efficient Dynamics":

Fuel consumption City/Highway

BMW M235i Automatic 8-speed -> 22 mpg/32 mpg (6 cyl.) 320 hp

BMW 228i Automatic 8-speed ---> 23 mpg/36 mpg (4 cyl.) 240 hp

Mercedes CLA 45 AMG 7-speed -> 23 mpg/31 mpg (4 cyl.) 360 hp

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by GoingTooFast

No, it's not just a question of preference because that would mean a brand couldn't improve or take better options in order to offer superior quality products than the competition. It would mean there wasn't competition to start with. However, we know that is not true nor desirable as competition is the fundamental aspect for progress to take place and it starts precisely by the confrontation of different ideas and motivations about common subjects.

Thus, when a car brand presents itself to the general public, and not to their unconditional fans only, with such bold statements like "Sheer Driving Pleasure" and "Efficient Dynamics" for sure one is entirely entitled to question whether the brand is up to those claims or not, whether they are on the right path or not, and even to suggest, as a longstanding customer, what the best path should be in order to fulfill those goals and beat the competition.

That's where I've always been standing.

Is English your first language? I don't mean that as a backhanded question. I just find your posts difficult to parse at times. Ok, all the time. But I am willing to consider that it might just be that I am dense. My mother is certain that I am, so we can call that probable, rather than possible.

In either case, could you state this more plainly for me? I'm eager to offer a rebuttal, but I find myself grasping at air and swinging at shadows.

[GoingTooFast]

I also think you should stick to the numbers they are very elucidating... but let me try to simplify it for you anyway:


Bottom line, the 6 cyl. engine today is a marketing thing for BMW.

[prolif1k]

Originally Posted by GoingTooFast

I also think you should stick to the numbers they are very elucidating... but let me try to simplify it for you anyway:


Bottom line, the 6 cyl. engine today is a marketing thing for BMW.

I get it; I've read all your other replies and you're entitled to stand for what you think.

However, this comment is just ludicrous. It makes ZERO sense for BMW continue using a 6 cylinder engine just for marketing purposes. They don't even mention (if so, rarely) that they are using 6 instead of 4 in any of their ads or promotional materials.

[Red Bread]

Yes, a perfectly balanced engine instead of one that requires balancing shafts to just get close is really just marketing. Further, you keep preaching how a six puts more weight on the front, yet the CLA, with a sideways four has much worse weight balance. Type some more gibberish...

[GoingTooFast]

Originally Posted by prolif1k

I get it; I've read all your other replies and you're entitled to stand for what you think.

However, this comment is just ludicrous. It makes ZERO sense for BMW continue using a 6 cylinder engine just for marketing purposes. They don't even mention (if so, rarely) that they are using 6 instead of 4 in any of their ads or promotional materials.

First of all let me reaffirm that I would never buy a car such the CLA AMG or the M235i... my 1M was the maximum I was willing to take as far as a car overall weight goes and precisely because of that I'm now ABSOLUTELY sure how a significantly lower weight is of paramount importance for the car dynamics and fuel-efficiency. So, my focus is on the solutions that better allow to achieve jus that... a 4 cyl. engine being one of them.

As for the 6 cyl. marketing stuff, here's just one of the many examples:

Unleash your inner enthusiast.

It's more than just the first-ever 2 Series. It's the newest M Performance vehicle, which embodies the racing heritage of M in all of its performance features: an inline six-cylinder, 320 hp engine, M Performance TwinPower Turbo Technology, and a bespoke chassis for the utmost in driving precision. Clearly, this newest addition to the lineup was engineered for one type of person: the adrenaline-hungry, power-obsessed, thrill-seeking M enthusiast.

[Red Bread]

So an Ariel Atom V8 is too fat?

In all honesty, aren't you somewhere you could get a 4C? Why don't you have one?

[prolif1k]

Originally Posted by GoingTooFast

First of all let me reaffirm that I would never buy a car such the CLA AMG or the M235i... my 1M was the maximum I was willing to take as far as a car overall weight goes and precisely because of that I'm now ABSOLUTELY sure how a significantly lower weight is of paramount importance for the car dynamics and fuel-efficiency. So, my focus is on the solutions that better allow to achieve jus that... a 4 cyl. engine being one of them.

As for the 6 cyl. marketing stuff, here's just one of the many examples:

That's just a description of the engine that every single automaker has for every single car they make. If they left out the engine type in the product descriptions, everyone would be asking "What kind of engine does it have?"

This isn't marketing. You obviously don't understand what marketing means. Telling consumers what engine is in your car, which I don't know why I should have to rationalize to you, is pretty much a requirement if communicating the specifications of the car. It's a big purchase and leaving out the details of the engine would be lunacy. If they used a 4 cylinder in the 235, they would still list the engine size on the website. They wouldn't hide it.

Marketing would be, "Our new M235 has 2 MORE CYLINDERS than the Mercedes CLA45."

[GoingTooFast]

C'mon... I known you can perfectly understand the "M heritage" "inline 6 cylinder engine" marketing association.

Why not "M heritage" "inline-4 cylinder engine" association like in the original M3?!

That would be a true heritage. Since it was the original M3 that really gave a name to BMW M.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by GoingTooFast

C'mon... I known you can perfectly understand the "M heritage" "inline 6 cylinder engine" marketing association.

Why not "M heritage" "inline-4 cylinder engine" association like in the original M3?!

That would be a true heritage. Since it was the original M3 that really gave a name to BMW M.

The M1 - six cylinder. The E28 M5 - six cylinder. Both well ahead of the E30 and actual M cars.

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by GoingTooFast

I also think you should stick to the numbers they are very elucidating... but let me try to simplify it for you anyway:


Bottom line, the 6 cyl. engine today is a marketing thing for BMW.

Either you don't understand what elucidating means, or we have a different view of what's clear.

1) Those are peak numbers, which have nothing to do with the position I've taken.

2) To say something is marketing is to say it serves no other purpose. If numbers are your game, then have a look at in gear acceleration times for just about any N54/N55 powered BMW versus an I4 turbocharged powered competitor. It proves the flexibility of the larger displacement engine.

AutoExpress has a really fantastic review of both the A45 AMG and the M135i, which I think translates well to the CLA 45 AMG vs M235i. The reviewer specifically mentions the difference in character between the engines at the 4:20 mark. Have a look at the video, or not -- your choice -- but you should stop spouting the "I6 is only marketing" thing. It's provably false "by the numbers".

[GoingTooFast]

Originally Posted by prolif1k

Marketing would be, "Our new M235 has 2 MORE CYLINDERS than the Mercedes CLA45."

Look, the M235i even isn't a M car by BMW's own definition so the only association you can make to the so-called "M heritage" is the 6 cyl. engine which today doesn't represent an advantage by itself except when the "M racing heritage" is evoked. That's a pure marketing exercise!

But if you really want to talk about "M racing heritage" there isn't any other BMW M that had won SO much like the E30 M3... that's precisely why it was the model that gave BMW M a name and still is their most iconic model.

It just happens it had a 4 cyl. engine instead of 6... coincidence?!

[GoingTooFast]

Moreover, as far as "M racing heritage" and turbocharged petrol engines go it is again a 4 cyl. engine to standout and give BMW their only F1 Championship title in 1983, the engine had won the 1983 Drivers' Championship and nine Grands Prix... again, coincidence?!