[aaaaah]

Originally Posted by USA-RET

So I guess it's settled then, the 228/230i is a better car, or was it the M235/M240.

I think you will find the base 218i is the best car.

[stevenvillatoro]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

It's topic is the undefinable nature of quality and the philosophies behind the term -- as it relates to a motorcycle.

Mr. Editor, be careful! The possessive use of 'its' does not have an apostrophe.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by stevenvillatoro

Mr. Editor, be careful! The possessive use of 'its' does not have an apostrophe.

Hehe ... caught it just before you posted!

[Y0tsuya]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

You, sir, need to read one of my favorite books: 'Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance' by Robert Pirsig. One of the great soliloquial chapters of 20th-century American prose is in that book. Its topic is the undefinable nature of quality and the philosophies behind the term -- as it relates to a motorcycle.

Read it. Get back to us. It refutes everything you believe, and supports everything nearly everyone else in this thread believes.

Already read it in high school. It does not refute anything I believe. The M240i is the better car even in both objective and subjective measures. The people in this thread brush aside hard metric like it's nothing and only point out "Quality" and "Feeling", which I will assert the M240i still beats the 230i on.

They point out more people with track experience who drive the 4-banger. Of course. BMW sells way more of those. But they conveniently ignore that BMW spent literally years developing the 2-series chassis with the N55 engine in computer simulation and on the Nurburgring with professional test drivers who do this for a living day in and day out.

It feels like the old debate between 2-core CPU and 4-core CPU, where the 2-core can run faster in single-thread applications, but 4-core handily trounces the 2-core in everything else. Once in a while we get a yahoo who will insist the 2-core is better because of single thread performance. But thankfully most people there are not fools.

[flypenfly]

A faster 2 core is in fact better if your primary workload is not multi-threaded. But irregardless, what we're trying to tell you is that you have a very shallow understanding of what makes a great car. There are far, far more metrics involved than just 2 numbers. In fact, everyone knows BMW's published numbers are often inaccurate (weight, HP ratings, etc). There are performance metrics that are not easily read and not widely published so you have to consult with experts (just like in the real world).

You're oversimplifying something you don't understand because... you don't understand it. If you're insecure about your purchase, don't be. A M235i is a fantastic pinnacle of Teutonic engineering. However, to some crusty old enthusiasts who have had it all (S4s, M3s, Vettes) who have some more experience, might prefer something else.

Yes, BMW spent millions on R&D but what does that have to do with anything? Do you have their balance sheets or something? So you think a company will spend less development money on their most popular product?

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by Y0tsuya

Already read it in high school. It does not refute anything I believe. The M240i is the better car even in both objective and subjective measures. The people in this thread brush aside hard metric like it's nothing and only point out "Quality" and "Feeling", which I will assert the M240i still beats the 230i on.

They point out more people with track experience who drive the 4-banger. Of course. BMW sells way more of those. But they conveniently ignore that BMW spent literally years developing the 2-series chassis with the N55 engine in computer simulation and on the Nurburgring with professional test drivers who do this for a living day in and day out.

It feels like the old debate between 2-core CPU and 4-core CPU, where the 2-core can run faster in single-thread applications, but 4-core handily trounces the 2-core in everything else. Once in a while we get a yahoo who will insist the 2-core is better because of single thread performance. But thankfully most people there are not fools.

Read it again (I've read the book five or six times over the years), particularly if you read the book for a high school class since that can severely skew your enjoyment and your comprehension. Just a suggestion from someone who hated certain books in high school but who grew to love those same books later in life ...

Also, context: "They" who have track experience are a hell of a lot better judge of a good track toy than "they" who are all 2 Series owners, most of whom don't buy the car with a track day even in mind ...

... and funny you bring up pro test drivers because I guarantee their feedback into developing the car -- actually, ANY car -- was almost entirely subjective. The data that each compiled as part of driving the car is objective data, but the feedback each provided about the experience of gathering the data is subjective. Which is more important, particularly as relatable to quality? The feedback. By far.

Objectivity has no place in a measurement of quality. None. This is because both quality and subjectivity are abstract human constructs that cannot be measured objectively. Can a machine measure quality? None has been invented yet, so ...

[Y0tsuya]

Originally Posted by flypenfly

A faster 2 core is in fact better if your primary workload is not multi-threaded.

You have to differentiate between your use-case and preference and the merit of the chip. The 2-core may be a better fit for you, but the 4-core is the better chip. It's built to outperform the 2-core in nearly everything, even in subjective real-usage because it won't have to context-switch as much as the 2-core. Again, pretty much everybody will agree that the 4-core is the "better chip".

Originally Posted by flypenfly

Yes, BMW spent millions on R&D but what does that have to do with anything? Do you have their balance sheets or something? So you think a company will spend less development money on their most popular product?

The 2-series is not popular at all... The 3/5/X are their bread-and-butter.

It means BMW and their test drivers tested the shit out of the M235i on the track, and passed muster. They probably tested the 228i on their private track, but their 228i prototype was never spotted near the Nurburgring, probably figured it won't beat the M235i anyway so why bother.

[Y0tsuya]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

Read it again (I've read the book five or six times over the years), particularly if you read the book for a high school class since that can severely skew your enjoyment and your comprehension. Just a suggestion from someone who hated certain books in high school but who grew to love those same books later in life ...

Also, context: "They" who have track experience are a hell of a lot better judge of a good track toy than "they" who are all 2 Series owners, most of whom don't buy the car with a track day even in mind ...

... and funny you bring up pro test drivers because I guarantee their feedback into developing the car -- actually, ANY car -- was almost entirely subjective. The data that each compiled as part of driving the car is objective data, but the feedback each provided about the experience of gathering the data is subjective. Which is more important, particularly as relatable to quality? The feedback. By far.

Objectivity has no place in a measurement of quality. None. This is because both quality and subjectivity are abstract human constructs that cannot be measured objectively. Can a machine measure quality? None has been invented yet, so ...

Nah that book was alright, and was discussed at length in class. But I have other stuff to do now. Thanks for the suggestion though.

Now, because it's clear that people differ on their subjective assessment, and one is not more relevant than the other. I will submit that objective metrics is the final arbiter of what is best. I will not back down on this point, since in my subjective assessment of M235i/M240i is opposite of many here.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by Y0tsuya

Now, because it's clear that people differ on their subjective assessment, and one is not more relevant than the other. I will submit that objective metrics is the final arbiter of what is best. I will not back down on this point, since in my subjective assessment of M235i/M240i is opposite of many here.

Fair enough, though I think most would agree that metrics should not be the final arbiter. An element to consider? Sure. But not the ultimate factor.

I'll put it this way: If metrics were treated as such, then we start to lose the human touch on all we create -- and the positive effect subjectivity and humanity have on tangible things.

An example wholly unrelated to cars: "Billy Ball" -- basically, the gathering of a sports team based solely on statistical performance data. Sometimes, it works. More often, it doesn't. Why? You can't quantify chemistry, dedication, heart, being "clutch" -- all of those things in an athlete that have no objective measure.

If "Billy Ball" were used as the final judge on someone such as Jose Altuve, he'd still be playing ball in the Caribbean instead of being the reigning AL MVP -- and if it were used as the final judge for the entire Houston Astros baseball team, it wouldn't have had a hope in hell of finishing over .500, much less winning the World Series.

Here's something else to consider: Is there an objective measure for the steering feel in a 2 Series -- or for any car? The answer: no. I guess, then, that the better feel in, say, an E30 M3 makes it a better track car than an M2, even though an M2 would destroy an E30 M3 on an actual track. Where's the logic of quality in that?

[BarryJI]

Originally Posted by Y0tsuya

Now, because it's clear that people differ on their subjective assessment, and one is not more relevant than the other. I will submit that objective metrics is the final arbiter of what is best. I will not back down on this point, since in my subjective assessment of M235i/M240i is opposite of many here.

This makes no sense. Your linguistic confusion is even more stubborn and flawed than your "reasoning" on this subject. Repeating your point of view ad nauseam does not make you look any less OCD. You are probably in science, accounting or tech, which would explain your mental addiction to "metrics" but you do not understand the meaning of such terms as "subjective" and "objective" and you seem incapable of looking beyond the sad little fort you've built around yourself for the purposes of this thread. Your determination to press your point is beginning to come across as a form of obsessive mental tic. You really should step back.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by Y0tsuya

I will submit that objective metrics is the final arbiter of what is best. I will not back down on this point...

(This thread amazingly keeps popping up on my list, so not resisting curiosity after having given up once....)

We again have the key conflict clearly presented. An objective metric is the final arbiter of nothing more than the objective metric. The entire concept of "better" is a fragile human perception based on assigning value from a personal scale, which varies from person to person. To try to take a human perception and codify it as ultimate truth remains folly. Faster is just faster, but only some people assign faster the value of being "better" in their personal view.

Just as an experiment to open your mind (and let's forget about cars for a moment), try walking around and considering that nothing is "better" than anything else, other than it's how you personally feel. Red is not better than blue; fast is not better than slow; bigger is not better than smaller; In N Out isn't better than McD's. It's just your personal perceptions, and those of all other people, each of whom believes they are right...which negates their very belief and reinforces how far evolution has to go.

This may be the most useful reading:

http://www.iep.utm.edu/cog-rel/

[BarryJI]

I've given up once too, but he keeps coming back, with his slide rule and his absolute conviction.

[Maynard]

I'm appreciating the actual depth in some of the rebuttals - Pirsig to Cognitive realism - well done! But our boy made it clear about 6 pages ago that this is about overcompensating for a small penis, and he clearly is thinking with some kind of little head, so I'll bring in the psychodynamic perspective. Of course he can't stop replying - every rebuttal pokes at that fragile ego, and he needs to re-assert his coping mechanism. He can't let go of that deep seated fear that numbers matter (length? girth?), so the conflict displaces to the car, and he needs to continually compensate by saying his is better because it is bigger. Of course, he can prove me wrong by not having to reply to this......

[Y0tsuya]

Oh sure it's aallll my fault. I'll stop coming back to this thread if you would too. Everybody's some sort of psychology expert here so I tip my hat to you. I don't purport to know enough about the subject to psychoanalyze you guys. Although I do find it interesting that some would take self-deprecating humor seriously enough to use it to bolster their arguments and put people down. That usually don't fly in other discussion forums. But I'll chalk that to you being one of the "special people."

[Viffermike]

[USA-RET]

Couldn't resist....sorry!

[stevenvillatoro]

Originally Posted by Y0tsuya

I'll stop coming back to this thread if you would too.

Conditional maturity! I love it... well played.

[Y0tsuya]

I mean it takes 2 (or more) to tango. You can't keep psychoanalyzing someone to find imaginary faults (thereby pushing the thread back to to top) and expect no response. And when there is a response, turn around and blame the person for pushing the thread back to the top.

[curtyv]

^ lol, how has this idiot not been banned yet?

[Y0tsuya]

Originally Posted by curtyv

^ lol, how has this idiot not been banned yet?

If you look at my posts in this thread, you'll see I've been mostly civil and respectful, and going the numbers, while being subjected to constant insults and ridicule from multiple people including the not-quite-mod. If you think that's cause for a ban, I have no words to say.

[wdc330i]

[QUOTE=Viffermike;22541503]Fair enough, though I think most would agree that metrics should not be the final arbiter. An element to consider? Sure. But not the penultimate factor.QUOTE]

A kindly post, from one editor to another.

Penultimate - Merriam-Webster Ask the Editor:

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by wdc330i

A kindly post, from one editor to another.

That word kicks my arse way too often.