[e90post_user]

Originally Posted by DSTR

Once you load the 228 up its closer to a less than loaded M235i.
I have the M235i virtually loaded. I only have this one due to the price I was offered given my car was a demonstration model for 3 weeks. The car I planned to order would have been base + 1 package no leather etc, base stereo etc etc no sunroof.
No nav. The car has all the comforts one needs virtually with no options. Im not sure what loading it up gives you in terms of driving dynamics. More accessories hardly ever makes a better drive. Portable navi's are better/cheaper and easier to upgrade. No magazine ever rates factory nav as a good choice. At least not here in Germany.
I dont care or want a car that makes pizza etc. I only wanted the higher speed limiter and cloth interior. I dont care about blueteeth etc lol!
I love the motor/brakes etc of the M235i. I like the space and seats all the other nannies in my car are virtually useless. Looking at the standard equipment list of the M235i plus the power etc its a great value.

It is a driving car and its very very fun and nice to look at when its not moving.
Luxury or useless pampering features were hardly what attracted me to the car in the first place. I liked the looks and felt the power and was sold in less than 5-minutes. My frau only needed 10 min + the auto lights feature lol!

With the driving dynamics argument I would point you out to the less expensive cars that match or exceed the driving dynamics of a 2-series.
You wanna play ?

[Mullins]

Originally Posted by sstarrx3

I have not heard of anybody being able to order an M235i at $500 over invoice. If you are able to do that you are in the great minority!! I do not see a dealership giving up an M235i allocation to make $500 off you at his time. They wont sell them that cheap off the lot either. The 228i after incentives is very easy to get that price though.

I got my M235i for 1k over invoice, but then had the accessory discount of 1k applied, so I got mine for exactly invoice. But that was also a Euro Delivery, so Invoice - 7%. I got a great deal

[USPSALIMITED]

Originally Posted by DSTR

The car I planned to order would have been base + 1 package no leather etc, base stereo etc etc no sunroof.
No nav. The car has all the comforts one needs virtually with no options. Im not sure what loading it up gives you in terms of driving dynamics. More accessories hardly ever makes a better drive. Portable navi's are better/cheaper and easier to upgrade. No magazine ever rates factory nav as a good choice. At least not here in Germany.
I dont care or want a car that makes pizza etc. I only wanted the higher speed limiter and cloth interior. I dont care about blueteeth etc lol!
I love the motor/brakes etc of the M235i. I like the space and seats all the other nannies in my car are virtually useless. Looking at the standard equipment list of the M235i plus the power etc its a great value.

It is a driving car and its very very fun and nice to look at when its not moving.
Luxury or useless pampering features were hardly what attracted me to the car in the first place. I liked the looks and felt the power and was sold in less than 5-minutes. My frau only needed 10 min + the auto lights feature lol!

So I'm not the only one who would order a car that way.

I keep wondering if I will have any regrets about not getting more of the bells and whistles though. None of that stuff blows my skirt up in the show room but some times you get stuff and it grows on you.

[MikeT]

Originally Posted by Mullins

I got my M235i for 1k over invoice, but then had the accessory discount of 1k applied, so I got mine for exactly invoice. But that was also a Euro Delivery, so Invoice - 7%. I got a great deal

Also in Bay Area, and thinking about doing ED in 2015. Mind if I ask who your dealer was?

[e90post_user]

Originally Posted by USPSALIMITED

So I'm not the only one who would order a car that way.

I keep wondering if I will have any regrets about not getting more of the bells and whistles though. None of that stuff blows my skirt up in the show room but some times you get stuff and it grows on you.

Everyone's situation is different, I felt that way when I ordered my last car, it was a base E90 335i x-Drive with metallic paint, heated seats and a 6-speed.
After driving that for three years, I wanted to get a car loaded up with toys, so I went with an M235i w/ Cold Weather, Premium, Tech, HK, and I love it.

[mmmmm235i]

If the prices are that close, I can't see how you wouldn't opt for the 235. Its not like it is a v10, the fuel economy is far better than my 09 328. The fact that someone walked out with a 228i lacking expensive options and a vastly more powerful engine for merely 2k less than I walked with my 235 makes me think you would be crazy to go 228. The 435 is a completely diffferent car and not factored for many 235 buyers.
Get the 235 and I promise you will never be wishing for a 4 banger.

[DSTR]

Originally Posted by e90post_user

With the driving dynamics argument I would point you out to the less expensive cars that match or exceed the driving dynamics of a 2-series.
You wanna play ?

You mean like any of the Lotus' Ive owned? LOL!

[DSTR]

Originally Posted by USPSALIMITED

So I'm not the only one who would order a car that way.

I keep wondering if I will have any regrets about not getting more of the bells and whistles though. None of that stuff blows my skirt up in the show room but some times you get stuff and it grows on you.

We all like what we like. Some drivers need all the tech some dont. Ive yet to see a heated seat make me buy a car lol!

[ska///235i]

Funny, ppl buy m235i cuz they think is cost saving from the M4 and its got all the power they'll ever need...then ppl buy the 228 cuz is cost saving from the M235 and its got all the power they'll need....check the active tour 2 fwd when it comes out and they'll tell you the same comparing to a 228.

[danimal]

Originally Posted by ska///235i

Funny, ppl buy m235i cuz they think is cost saving from the M4 and its got all the power they'll ever need...then ppl buy the 228 cuz is cost saving from the M235 and its got all the power they'll need....check the active tour 2 fwd when it comes out and they'll tell you the same comparing to a 228.

A big part of it is probably what you're used to. Coming from an E90 328i, I really feel the extra power and torque of the 2.0-liter turbo. It's particularly useful in top gear on the freeway. If I had already owned an E90 335i, though, I'm sure the 2.0-liter turbo wouldn't have impressed me as much.

Of course, I chose the 328i instead of the 335i for the same reasons I chose the 228i--I just don't care as much about straight line performance as other things, like handling, shift quality, throttle response, seat support and comfort, ride quality, etc. And, given that the turbo four gives me more than ample power, the better fuel economy is nice to have, especially given the small fuel tank.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by sstarrx3

I have not heard of anybody being able to order an M235i at $500 over invoice. If you are able to do that you are in the great minority!! I do not see a dealership giving up an M235i allocation to make $500 off you at his time. They wont sell them that cheap off the lot either. The 228i after incentives is very easy to get that price though.

Please, no need to roll your eyes.
Markets are different, and relationships with dealers are different.
I have a very good one with mine.
An M235i will be my 4th BMW so they treat me well.

People said the same thing when the 335i Msport first came.
Some of us were called "crazy" or "liars" when we said we got $500 above invoice.
Yet I got $500 over invoice no problem.
Allotments are for special order and dealers like mine don't covet them as much as other dealers.
My SA put the order in and my 335i Msport was one of the first batches to come to the US. I ordered in late June 2012 and it came in around late August.

What "incentives" are you talking about.
Any BMW incentives are applied to all 2 series.
Perhaps you're talking about dealers discounting the price one a 228i that's been on the lot?

There is a a $1000 BMW drive event incentive, and I got that on my 335i.
And there was a $750 loyalty incentive.
When BMW does those incentives they apply, mostly, to a car line.
Maybe there is a particular 228i incentive?
If so, what is it?

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

Depends on content, I suppose, but I rebuilt my own 228i (other than color/trim choices) and a comparably-equipped M235i. $4,400 difference, which is significant to some, if one even wanted the larger engine to begin with. And, this is MSRP. Experience is showing more negotiated discounts for the 228I. I actually paid about $42k.


[IMG]Screen Shot 2014-09-02 at 2.58.53 PM.png[/IMG]
[IMG]Screen Shot 2014-09-02 at 3.00.19 PM.png[/IMG]

If one doesn't want the larger engine to begin with, then why would one compare the pricing between the two?

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by danimal

A big part of it is probably what you're used to. Coming from an E90 328i, I really feel the extra power and torque of the 2.0-liter turbo. It's particularly useful in top gear on the freeway. If I had already owned an E90 335i, though, I'm sure the 2.0-liter turbo wouldn't have impressed me as much.

Of course, I chose the 328i instead of the 335i for the same reasons I chose the 228i--I just don't care as much about straight line performance as other things, like handling, shift quality, throttle response, seat support and comfort, ride quality, etc. And, given that the turbo four gives me more than ample power, the better fuel economy is nice to have, especially given the small fuel tank.

All those performance aspects you mention are what I like as well.
But I also like the extra power and smoothness of the inline 6.
Beautiful engine that N20, and with it BMW made the performance gap closer, especially as a daily driver.
Both engines give admirable off the line torque. The N20 has plenty of low rpm torque, so much so that many don't want or need the turbo 6.

As for fuel economy, with the 8spd AT the MPG difference between equally optioned 3's is so minor as to not even be a point.
On the 3 forum there are 328i's with better MPG than 335i's, and 335i's with better MPG than 328i's.
That tells you that MPG on these cars is much more related to how one drives than anything inherent in the either engines efficiency.
There is more difference in MPG between a x28i driven daily in hilly terrain compared to one driven on the flat lands of the Chicago area, than there is between a x28i and x35i driven on the same roads.
If both engines are called upon to deliver on average 170hp/180lb ft, then both engines will use about the same fuel to do so.
And the weight difference between equally optioned 328i and 335i is under 200lbs, that favors the 328i, but not by much at all.

A 335i or M235i will get less MPG if and when the driver uses the extra power.
And since the turbo 6 can produce more power, it naturally will need more fuel to do so. Nothing magical there, it's physics and mechanics.
Driven equally using the same power demands, with the same trans, fuel economy will be very close.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by RPM90

If one doesn't want the larger engine to begin with, then why would one compare the pricing between the two?

Just to reply to e90's post which immediately preceded my comparison. The difference was more than $4,000, comparably-equipped, and that is not insignificant, even if you want the larger engine. I didn't seriously consider the M235i when I bought the 228i, but out of interest, I looked at a bunch of BMWs on the website, including the M6!!

[danimal]

Originally Posted by RPM90

As for fuel economy, with the 8spd AT the MPG difference between equally optioned 3's is so minor as to not even be a point.
On the 3 forum there are 328i's with better MPG than 335i's, and 335i's with better MPG than 328i's.
That tells you that MPG on these cars is much more related to how one drives than anything inherent in the either engines efficiency.
There is more difference in MPG between a x28i driven daily in hilly terrain compared to one driven on the flat lands of the Chicago area, than there is between a x28i and x35i driven on the same roads.
If both engines are called upon to deliver on average 170hp/180lb ft, then both engines will use about the same fuel to do so.
And the weight difference between equally optioned 328i and 335i is under 200lbs, that favors the 328i, but not by much at all.

A 335i or M235i will get less MPG if and when the driver uses the extra power.
And since the turbo 6 can produce more power, it naturally will need more fuel to do so. Nothing magical there, it's physics and mechanics.
Driven equally using the same power demands, with the same trans, fuel economy will be very close.

Well, now you've got me curious: Do two engines with similar technology (direct injection, turbocharging, variable valve timing, etc.) but significantly different displacement and cylinder count use the same amount of fuel when producing the same amount of horsepower? I would think the 2.0-liter would in fact be more efficient putting out 170 HP than the 3.0-liter putting out 170 HP. Maybe the difference is just a few percentage points, but I would expect something.

I complete agree that driving style and conditions are going to make much more difference than any inherent differences in efficiency between the 2.0 and 3.0-liter engines, but the question is whether the same person driving under the same conditions will get the same fuel economy with the 3.0-liter as the 2.0-liter. Or, to my point, would I be able to go more miles between fill-ups with a 228i than an M235i?

One piece of evidence that cylinders count and displacement do matter is that cylinder deactivation technology (i.e., variable cylinder management) really does save fuel (8-20% according to this J.D. Power article). If using fewer cylinders/less displacement to generate the same horsepower didn't save fuel, this technology wouldn't exist.

[USPSALIMITED]

Originally Posted by danimal

Well, now you've got me curious: Do two engines with similar technology (direct injection, turbocharging, variable valve timing, etc.) but significantly different displacement and cylinder count use the same amount of fuel when producing the same amount of horsepower? I would think the 2.0-liter would in fact be more efficient putting out 170 HP than the 3.0-liter putting out 170 HP. Maybe the difference is just a few percentage points, but I would expect something.

I complete agree that driving style and conditions are going to make much more difference than any inherent differences in efficiency between the 2.0 and 3.0-liter engines, but the question is whether the same person driving under the same conditions will get the same fuel economy with the 3.0-liter as the 2.0-liter. Or, to my point, would I be able to go more miles between fill-ups with a 228i than an M235i?

One piece of evidence that cylinders count and displacement do matter is that cylinder deactivation technology (i.e., variable cylinder management) really does save fuel (8-20% according to this J.D. Power article). If using fewer cylinders/less displacement to generate the same horsepower didn't save fuel, this technology wouldn't exist.

I don't think anyone said that the smaller engine would not be more efficient, only that in this case the two engines are very close.
If that helps.

[danimal]

Originally Posted by USPSALIMITED

I don't think anyone said that the smaller engine would not be more efficient, only that in this case the two engines are very close.
If that helps.

Let me put it this way, if the real world difference between the two engines amounts to 30 miles per tank (~2.5 mpg), I would consider that significant because it would mean an extra day between fill-ups for me.

Given that the EPA city/highway fuel economy for the 6MT is 22/34 for the 228i and 19/28 for the M235i, I think it's safe to say I could expect to achieve a 2.5-mpg difference in mixed driving.

[danimal]

Originally Posted by USPSALIMITED

I don't think anyone said that the smaller engine would not be more efficient, only that in this case the two engines are very close.
If that helps.

BTW, I was specifically disputing this statement:

Originally Posted by RPM90

If both engines are called upon to deliver on average 170hp/180lb ft, then both engines will use about the same fuel to do so.

[Mullins]

Originally Posted by MikeT

Also in Bay Area, and thinking about doing ED in 2015. Mind if I ask who your dealer was?

Talk to Jon from Santa Barbara. Was a pleasure to work with, and only had to go there to pick up the car.

[MikeT]

Originally Posted by Mullins

Talk to Jon from Santa Barbara. Was a pleasure to work with, and only had to go there to pick up the car.

Thank you, sir. Will definitely get in touch with him when it's time. I've heard good things about him for years.