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      12-16-2013, 03:49 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by dmboone25
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Originally Posted by xDrive35i View Post

There's a market for this type of vehicle, I know it.
There was one for the Pontiac Aztek too...and the PT Cruiser...etc, etc....

Just because a mother has to love all her babies, even the ugly, pointless ones, that doesn't mean everyone has to do the same.
It might not be the most attractive car ever, but for the segment it does an incredible job fusing form with function. This is by no means a pointless vehicle. Just let BMW sell these cars so they can spend more money on making cars for you! Do you think 95% of drivers question the prestige of the BMW marque? IF THIS CAR IS CAPABLE OF DESTROYING BMW's BRAND PRESENCE, THEN BMW NEVER HAD ANY BRAND PRESENCE AT ALL.
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      12-16-2013, 03:52 PM   #90
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      12-16-2013, 04:39 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
It will also give BMW further means to progress and develop models for their growing customer base.
That's where you're wrong, Scott. If that was the only outcome, most people responding in this thread would've remained indifferent. No one here wants BMW to fail as a business.

The reason why everyone is so loudly against this abomination is because this car will also give BMW the means to further reduce the range of models appealing to the enthusiasts. When 5GT came, BMW took away 5 series Touring. When 3GT and X1 came, BMW took away the RWD and/or manual 3 series Touring. When this thing comes, BMW will again find something good to take away.

BTW, ladies and gentlemen, have you seen the new C-classe? That's one really good looking car.
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      12-16-2013, 04:48 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by ynguldyn View Post
That's where you're wrong, Scott. If that was the only outcome, most people responding in this thread would've remained indifferent. No one here wants BMW to fail as a business.

The reason why everyone is so loudly against this abomination is because this car will also give BMW the means to further reduce the range of models appealing to the enthusiasts. When 5GT came, BMW took away 5 series Touring. When 3GT and X1 came, BMW took away the RWD and/or manual 3 series Touring. When this thing comes, BMW will again find something good to take away.

BTW, ladies and gentlemen, have you seen the new C-classe? That's one really good looking car.
BMW took these models and transmissions away because no one was buying them.
No one wanted the E61 and E91. And there is not much interest in the F31 in the USA also. The 5er GT sold three years worth of E61 in one year.
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      12-16-2013, 04:51 PM   #93
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I don't think this destroys BMWs brand. To me it's the extension of the brand into a new segment just like the X cars, the Z cars and the i cars. I think that's great. I would have given it a new acronym like C (for city car or crossover). this could have been the BMW C2.

However I do think by naming it 225i it damages the 2 series sub-brand. @scott26 perhaps you can articulate for us in one sentence what the 2 series sub-brand now stands for.
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      12-16-2013, 04:53 PM   #94
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      12-16-2013, 04:59 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by ynguldyn View Post
.................................................. ..................................................
BTW, ladies and gentlemen, have you seen the new C-classe? That's one really good looking car.
You are joking, n'est pas?
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      12-16-2013, 05:10 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by xDrive35i View Post
It might not be the most attractive car ever, but for the segment it does an incredible job fusing form with function. This is by no means a pointless vehicle. Just let BMW sell these cars so they can spend more money on making cars for you! Do you think 95% of drivers question the prestige of the BMW marque? IF THIS CAR IS CAPABLE OF DESTROYING BMW's BRAND PRESENCE, THEN BMW NEVER HAD ANY BRAND PRESENCE AT ALL.
My main point is that a company should always stick to what they're good at, even if branching into a new market segment. There's a reason companies who try to be good at everything (Ford, GM, VW, Toyota, etc) rarely end up doing so, and seem to lack a single company-defining characteristic as a result.

When I get into a BMW, I expect it to be rear wheel drive, steer well, and most of all, be a fun car to drive. Regardless of size, series, whatever, I expect Excellent driving dynamics, "the ultimate driving machine" and all that. Does this minivan tick any of those boxes? Does it fit into what an average person would think to expect from BMW ?

My guess would be no. And the time and energy spent on stuff like this could have been applied in a manner consistent with your core company values to accomplish the same goal, which just don't seem present here.

Whatever sales they get from models like this just won't seem worth it, at least in my opinion. We shall see...maybe they will slap some faux wood grain on the sides and it will sell like hot cakes...
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      12-16-2013, 05:27 PM   #97
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You are joking, n'est pas?
When I moved to the US from Ukraine, all women here looked ugly to me. Now I see plenty of good looking ones.
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      12-16-2013, 05:32 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by xDrive35i View Post
It seems like you guys get paid by the word to complain about things that will never affect you! Is someone bleeding? Are you dying?

Unless you were strapped to the underbody of this car for bump-stop testing during the development stages, you have no business spending this much energy focusing on nonessential bullshit. You are not going to get a formal apology from BMW for developing this car. I don't think I've ever seen so much entitlement in one space! I get that this is a forum but you guys aren't even offering constructive criticism! If there's even a modicum of a chance that BMW executives read this forum, you guys have managed to waste it. Why don't you wait and see how BMW tries to market this product? Or better yet, why don't you wait till you have a chance to drive it? If you're going to feel this strongly about something, you better be prepared to find out you were wrong.

As for me, I probably wouldn't buy this car, but I'd be happy to see it on the road. This isn't about making the brand more financially accessible like the CLA. This is about appealing to a wider range of buyers with discerning tastes. I, for one, can't wait to see how this car looks in person. This seems like a premium product. BMW is trying to reintroduce the luxury compact...Audi's A3 e-tron sportback is coming, and maybe we'll see the B-class from Mercedes in a couple of years. There's a market for this type of vehicle, I know it.
I agree, but I'm used to the same type criticisms when I had a Mini and was on that forum. When the R56 came out, you would have thought it was the end of the free world, even though the last year of R50/53 was somewhat stagnant. Heaven forbid when the Clubman and then the Countryman came out, it was the Apocolypse, regardless of the fact they sold a bunch of Countrymans.

I like the design, and given some of their competition in the small crossover/suv market, it's a reasonable development to pursue. Mazda may come over to the US with a diesel CX-5. The CX-5 gets good reviews for handling and driver feedback, in fact the reviews are very un crossover like.
With the coming GLA from Mercedes (A CLA based crossover/SUV), they should pursue it. FWD cars can be fun to drive, I know I had one, a Mini. BMW, please, drop the N47 in it and I'm sold. I want a small crossover/SUV in diesel for my wife.

As far as the number. Get over it. A number doesn't dilute your car. If you have a 235, it's still a bad ass car, regarless of what number someone puts on another car.
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      12-16-2013, 05:34 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by ynguldyn View Post
When I moved to the US from Ukraine, all women here looked ugly to me. Now I see plenty of good looking ones.
Well, there's your problem. You should have moved up here to Canada where we have the world's third-largest Ukrainian population behind Ukraine itself and Russia.
Bet y'all didn't know that eh?
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      12-16-2013, 05:53 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
BMW took these models and transmissions away because no one was buying them.
No one wanted the E61 and E91. And there is not much interest in the F31 in the USA also. The 5er GT sold three years worth of E61 in one year.
5GT is offered with two different engines and both RWD and AWD. E61 was only offered as 530xi and then 535xi. 5400 530xi's and 4450 535xi's were made. Pre-LCI F07 (I'm too lazy to look up the LCI numbers, they don't change anything anyway) made 2450 550iGT, 3400 535iGT, 1400 550xiGT, and 3000 535xiGT. That is, 10250 5GTs in four years of production vs. 9850 E61s in five years of production, and who knows how many extra sales would there be if we could buy 550iT here?

So, please tell me again, which year was that, when 5GT was selling at 3x E61 rate? (Desperately need a Willie Wonka GIF here.)

Oh, and by the way, the customers, who couldn't buy F11, didn't go to F07. They went to E-classe and A6 instead. F07 just took sales from F01/02. Even BMW execs acknowledge the mistake. Look around - no one's drinking that 2009 kool-aid anymore.

As for F31, in less than a year of production BMW has made more than 3000 of them for the NA market. Do your BMW NA bosses consider this to be a sales failure these days?
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      12-16-2013, 06:09 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
My main point is that a company should always stick to what they're good at, even if branching into a new market segment. There's a reason companies who try to be good at everything (Ford, GM, VW, Toyota, etc) rarely end up doing so, and seem to lack a single company-defining characteristic as a result.

When I get into a BMW, I expect it to be rear wheel drive, steer well, and most of all, be a fun car to drive. Regardless of size, series, whatever, I expect Excellent driving dynamics, "the ultimate driving machine" and all that. Does this minivan tick any of those boxes? Does it fit into what an average person would think to expect from BMW ?

My guess would be no. And the time and energy spent on stuff like this could have been applied in a manner consistent with your core company values to accomplish the same goal, which just don't seem present here.

Whatever sales they get from models like this just won't seem worth it, at least in my opinion. We shall see...maybe they will slap some faux wood grain on the sides and it will sell like hot cakes...
But yours aren't the only expectations. I get that you have an idea of how you want all BMWs to be, but that ship sailed with the E30 325ix back in the 80s. BMW does what it does very, very well. Every company has to reevaluate its mission periodically, and sometimes it's time for a change. BMW made an executive decision to diversify the production lineup based on a variety of financial, environmental, and philosophical reasons--some of which we are not privy to. And when a company like BMW does this, it takes a risk with its loyal customers. You have to remember that there are more people buying new BMWs for the first time than there are people buying for the second, third, fourth, etc. time. BMW needs to appeal to more people--it used to be a niche manufacturer, but exclusivity can only go so far at the sub $100k price bracket. A business model that excludes potential buyers does not a financially successful company make. At this point, it's up to you to decide if you're really loyal. Is the existence of this car that you will likely never have to drive (or be seen in) really worth leaving the brand over?
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      12-16-2013, 06:18 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by ynguldyn View Post
5GT is offered with two different engines and both RWD and AWD. E61 was only offered as 530xi and then 535xi. 5400 530xi's and 4450 535xi's were made. Pre-LCI F07 (I'm too lazy to look up the LCI numbers, they don't change anything anyway) made 2450 550iGT, 3400 535iGT, 1400 550xiGT, and 3000 535xiGT. That is, 10250 5GTs in four years of production vs. 9850 E61s in five years of production, and who knows how many extra sales would there be if we could buy 550iT here?

So, please tell me again, which year was that, when 5GT was selling at 3x E61 rate? (Desperately need a Willie Wonka GIF here.)

Oh, and by the way, the customers, who couldn't buy F11, didn't go to F07. They went to E-classe and A6 instead. F07 just took sales from F01/02. Even BMW execs acknowledge the mistake. Look around - no one's drinking that 2009 kool-aid anymore.

As for F31, in less than a year of production BMW has made more than 3000 of them for the NA market. Do your BMW NA bosses consider this to be a sales failure these days?
I had an 2007 E61 535xi and it was an incredible car. I was sad to give it up end-lease, and I was sad to hear that BMW only sold some 940 E61s in MY 2010. I very much like the F07, and I appreciate that the purpose of the car is slightly different than the E61. The fact of the matter is, few were willing to pay $55k base for a 535xi wagon that lacked premium content and features that much cheaper cars were offering. A fully optioned E61 wagon came in around $70k (like mine), and that was just too much for a car like that. Families weren't really spending $60-70k on station wagons at the time, so BMW decided that a car like the F07 would appeal to those for whom that price bracket was accessible. The packaging may not have been ideal--I venture a guess that the F07 would have done much better if its design was better sorted--but the interior was both useful and of extremely high quality. In this way, the GT is a success; it is at its core a truly luxurious, expensive feeling vehicle with a price to match. It satisfies its purpose completely and is a truly competent offering in an undefined segment. Maybe if it had competition, others would have appreciated it more. Who knows? I can say it sold well enough to warrant an LCI.
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      12-16-2013, 06:29 PM   #103
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Who wants a job with the company that has that black Cayenne camera vehicle. They see every new BMW, Merc etc months or years before their release in the US, filming around canyon roads outside LA and downtown LA.

Most recently seen filming:
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All donning euro plates, why? Why not film in Europe for the release pics?
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      12-16-2013, 06:29 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xDrive35i
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmboone25
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Originally Posted by xDrive35i View Post

There's a market for this type of vehicle, I know it.
There was one for the Pontiac Aztek too...and the PT Cruiser...etc, etc....

Just because a mother has to love all her babies, even the ugly, pointless ones, that doesn't mean everyone has to do the same.
It might not be the most attractive car ever, but for the segment it does an incredible job fusing form with function. This is by no means a pointless vehicle. Just let BMW sell these cars so they can spend more money on making cars for you! Do you think 95% of drivers question the prestige of the BMW marque? IF THIS CAR IS CAPABLE OF DESTROYING BMW's BRAND PRESENCE, THEN BMW NEVER HAD ANY BRAND PRESENCE AT ALL.
The problem is that BMW won't use these profits to then build cars for me. They are going to use these profits to build even more stupid cars that I don't want while further softening the core models.
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      12-16-2013, 06:43 PM   #105
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Although this car clearly is a can that reminds me of a Mazda 5 I understand the diversification of the line up. When you need to survive against VW group and their insane amount of high quality subsidiaries and offerings, something needs to be expanded. If BMW just made 5 cars they would be at risk of merger or acquisition by VW or another large conglomerate. They may not be able to produce the capital to compete. Not sure if this is the way they should expand market offerings under the same brand name though. And I do agree this car makes no sense with the naming conventions.

Mercedes is doing similar stuff thou. I mean they have the cla, and they make actual vans and sell 200k + s-classes so I think there may be a method to the madness.

One could argue that bmw has a more relevant enthusiast base as we can see with this board. But that is just my guess I'm sure MB has a good cult following as well.

Wow, I need to study for this final now. Cheers.
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      12-16-2013, 06:45 PM   #106
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My initial reaction (not lying) was:
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      12-16-2013, 06:56 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by xDrive35i View Post
But yours aren't the only expectations. I get that you have an idea of how you want all BMWs to be, but that ship sailed with the E30 325ix back in the 80s. BMW does what it does very, very well. Every company has to reevaluate its mission periodically, and sometimes it's time for a change. BMW made an executive decision to diversify the production lineup based on a variety of financial, environmental, and philosophical reasons--some of which we are not privy to. And when a company like BMW does this, it takes a risk with its loyal customers. You have to remember that there are more people buying new BMWs for the first time than there are people buying for the second, third, fourth, etc. time. BMW needs to appeal to more people--it used to be a niche manufacturer, but exclusivity can only go so far at the sub $100k price bracket. A business model that excludes potential buyers does not a financially successful company make. At this point, it's up to you to decide if you're really loyal. Is the existence of this car that you will likely never have to drive (or be seen in) really worth leaving the brand over?
I hear ya my man. I won't leave the brand over it necessarily - but I might make fun of that idiotic looking cousin, so to speak.

I understand, on a fundamental level, what it is that they're doing. I just think it's dumb.

Let's have a beer and remember the good old days when BMW minivans didn't exist.
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      12-16-2013, 06:59 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
BMW took these models and transmissions away because no one was buying them.
No one wanted the E61 and E91. And there is not much interest in the F31 in the USA also. The 5er GT sold three years worth of E61 in one year.
Ahhhhh yes. The obligatory BMW marketing BS.

Maybe if you put 183828282 ///M badges on it, it won't look like such a effing piece of dog shit. Well maybe not.
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      12-16-2013, 07:01 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
I hear ya my man. I won't leave the brand over it necessarily - but I might make fun of that idiotic looking cousin, so to speak.

I understand, on a fundamental level, what it is that they're doing. I just think it's dumb.

Let's have a beer and remember the good old days when BMW minivans didn't exist.
Cheers to hydraulic steering!



too soon?
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      12-16-2013, 07:05 PM   #110
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SCOTT:

Why are BMW fucking up the model line up after massive cleaning? Where is the logic???

1-series: FWD models, 3-doors, 5-doors
2-series: Coupe, Cabriolet, Gran Coupe, and now FWD Active Tourer?!? That make no sense in this category.
3-series: Sedan, Touring, Gran Turismo
4-series: Coupe, Cabriolet, Gran Coupe
5-series: Sedan, Touring, Gran Turismo
6-series: Coupe, Cabriolet, Gran Coupe
7-series: Sedan
8-series: Coupe, Gran Coupe (feature)
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