[gaijin]

No PDK. Now that's a driver's drive. Way to Zuffenhausen!

[ORIGIN M.]

No, these cars were not close in price. Over priced 2nd-hand 1M maybe.

[Artemis]

Looks like it's gonna be a bat out of hell.

Mid January 2015: new BMW M CEO Franciscus van Meel (formerly working for Audi) reveals that manual transmissions will only continue to be made should there be market demand for them, with sales suggesting they were on their way out (http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/mo...-m-development).

Q: "How do you feel about the manual transmission?"
A: "Everybody feels strongly about it, it is an emotional issue. But from a technical perspective, it makes only limited sense. Weight is better, but fuel consumption and shifting performance are inferior, and it is getting harder and harder for the manual transmission. The community is diminishing because of the improvements of the dual-clutch transmission."
(http://blog.caranddriver.com/bmw-m-c...-bmw-supercar/)

Q: "What are your thoughts on the future of the manual gearbox at BMW M? Is it only the Americans that care about that?"
A: "It’s very easy. There is a technical answer and there is a business answer. The technical answer is that you’re slower with a manual gearbox than with a fast automatic or DCT [dual-clutch], and you have higher fuel consumption. The emotional part, I’m also very emotional about that, [is that] if there is a market for it, we will stick with the manual gearbox. Currently, we see a decreasing market for manuals. It’s already quite small and it’s decreasing. But if your readers would start buying loads of manual transmissions, of course we will stick to a manual!"
Q: "So, what is M3/M4 take rate on the manual gearbox?"
A: "It’s still too early to tell with the new M3/M4 but on the previous generation car (E90 family), it was 25 percent manual. That’s because the DCT is so good. The M3 before that, the E46, it was about 50/50, but that car had the optional (single-clutch) SMG gearbox versus the DCT dual-clutch."
(http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/News/Se...division-boss/)

Early February 2015: Porsche releases pictures and info about the hardcore Cayman GT4 - alike the BMW 1M, it will be manual only.

Check what Porsche says from 04:11-05:30 in the previously posted Porsche interview video. Who cares that one of the reasons for this transmission choice might consist of keeping the Cayman GT4 a few moments less fast than its big brother, the 911 GT3 (oh, and actually, maybe it is faster) ? It's all about driver joy with a high performance car:

And from 02:32-03:39:

[JustChris]

Well after reading and watching all I can on the GT4 I have to say it is amazing, but very expensive. I can see some stellar reviews coming out for this little beauty. Looks like C2S pace but at 2/3 price and with MR handling

[RingMeister01]

And then something like this happens

Step it up BMW

[135]

Originally Posted by RingMeister01

And then something like this happens

Step it up BMW

[u2b]https://www.youtube.com/v/2GmLnDmBW10[/u2b]

[RingMeister01]

Originally Posted by 135

https://www.youtube.com/v/2GmLnDmBW10

[hans007]

Originally Posted by UpNcOmINg!

EXACTLY!!!!
A steering wheel that is there to steer the car, that's all. No need for buttons and cruise control and nuclear sequences and and and...
This car just went straight to the top of my future car list!
As soon as it makes the affordability list Im there.

i actually never use any of the buttons on my bmw wheel.

on porsches you can choose what wheel is installed on the car, but i think the base on say (a base boxster) is the "multifunction wheel" which has buttons. a lot of people recommend the sportdesign wheel which is pretty similar looking to the one on the GT4 (i think its just leather not alcantera and the spokes might look a little different)

[s3baman]

Originally Posted by 135

[u2b]https://www.youtube.com/v/2GmLnDmBW10[/u2b]

In blue this car looks simply stunning

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by golf_234

I am not a Porsche fan, but I will admit that car is quite amazing. Perfect little sportscar.

I agree. And i also think I just stopped ever wanting a 911.

[135]

Originally Posted by RingMeister01

I thought you might have like that

You're lucky - the problem here is the price.

Cayman S Man ----- USD $64K --- AUD $153K
Cayman S PDK ----- USD $67K --- AUD $158K
Cayman GTS Man --- USD $75K --- AUD $175K
Cayman GTS PDK --- USD $79K --- AUD $182K
Cayman GT4 Man --- USD $85K --- AUD $206K

911 S Man ----- USD $99K --- AUD $263K
911 S PDK ----- USD $103K --- AUD $269K
911 GTS Man --- USD $115K --- AUD $287K
911 GTS PDK --- USD $120K --- AUD $295K
911 GT3 PDK --- USD $130K --- AUD $313K
911 Turbo S PDK --- USD $183K --- AUD $470K

AUS pricing government taxes

1340 kg / 2950 lbs - why can't the M2 even get close to being this light?
7:40 'Ring time - not fully optimised, still potential for it to be quicker.
USD $30K+ (AUD ~$100K) more than an M2.
If you're looking at a GT4, by the time it's is released, you could also consider a used GT3.

Okay, back on topic.

I have rarely commented on the M2 - I'll reserve that until something official has been released. There's no use getting excited (or not) over what may not eventuate. I'll just bide my time with anticipation. Whatever I get next, I'd prefer it to be more track-focussed and for that to be reflected in its mannerisms (driver connection) and styling.

[135]

Originally Posted by RingMeister01

Originally Posted by s3baman

In blue this car looks simply stunning

I really like the Porsche Green and Porsche Orange colours used on the 997 GT3 RS as well as Speed Yellow but this new blue may have changed my mind.

[W///]

Originally Posted by 135

I thought you might have like that

You're lucky - the problem here is the price.

Cayman S Man ----- USD $64K --- AUD $153K
Cayman S PDK ----- USD $67K --- AUD $158K
Cayman GTS Man --- USD $75K --- AUD $175K
Cayman GTS PDK --- USD $79K --- AUD $182K
Cayman GT4 Man --- USD $85K --- AUD $206K

911 S Man ----- USD $99K --- AUD $263K
911 S PDK ----- USD $103K --- AUD $269K
911 GTS Man --- USD $115K --- AUD $287K
911 GTS PDK --- USD $120K --- AUD $295K
911 GT3 PDK --- USD $130K --- AUD $313K
911 Turbo S PDK --- USD $183K --- AUD $470K

AUS pricing government taxes

1340 kg / 2950 lbs - why can't the M2 even get close to being this light?
7:40 'Ring time - not fully optimised, still potential for it to be quicker.
USD $30K+ (AUD ~$100K) more than an M2.
If you're looking at a GT4, by the time it's is released, you could also consider a used GT3.

Okay, back on topic.

I have rarely commented on the M2 - I'll reserve that until something official has been released. There's no use getting excited (or not) over what may not eventuate. I'll just bide my time with anticipation. Whatever I get next, I'd prefer it to be more track-focussed and for that to be reflected in its mannerisms (driver connection) and styling.

Isn't it pretty obvious? One car is designed up from the ground up to be a 2 seater, that happens to be NA, while the other is a 4 seater with a proper trunk, that happens to be turboed.

Not to mention the price. If the M2 starts at let's say $55k (being generous I think), the GT4 is almost 60% more expensive. That's a pretty decent gap.

[RingMeister01]

I have to seriously reevaluate this. GT4 has me thinking sinfully.

[RingMeister01]

Originally Posted by W///

Isn't it pretty obvious? One car is designed up from the ground up to be a 2 seater, that happens to be NA, while the other is a 4 seater with a proper trunk, that happens to be turboed.

Not to mention the price. If the M2 starts at let's say $55k (being generous I think), the GT4 is almost 60% more expensive. That's a pretty decent gap.

2950 lbs is worth the premium and practicality any day. Cars like these will be extinct in short time.


And you have your e92 for grocery shopping.

[135]

Originally Posted by W///

Isn't it pretty obvious? One car is designed up from the ground up to be a 2 seater, that happens to be NA, while the other is a 4 seater with a proper trunk, that happens to be turboed.

Not to mention the price. If the M2 starts at let's say $55k (being generous I think), the GT4 is almost 60% more expensive. That's a pretty decent gap.

Seeing as there are comparisons being drawn between the two cars, I thought it was fair to question the weight difference. Realistically though, the M2 is unlikely to be able to match the GT4/GTS in terms of weight but it is possible that it could get close - or, at least, a lot closer than what is being predicted at the moment.
Note that it seems Porsche USA quote their US weights as DIN unladen converted from kg to lbs, whereas, BMW USA uses US unladen, so it's difficult to draw direct comparisons between the M2 and GT4 in the same way we could with different BMW models.

I think 1450 kg / 3200 lbs DIN unladen weight is very realistic for the M2 (based on comparisons between M4, 435i, M3, 335i and M235i, with extrapolation for M2), therefore, it could be achievable to reach 1400 kg / 3100 lbs DIN unladen, which would compare favourably against the GT4/GTS weight of 1340 kg / 2950 lbs DIN.
The M2 could achieve 1450 kg / 3200 lbs DIN using lightweight materials (a la M3/M4), including a carbon fibre roof. Perhaps that 1400 kg DIN weight may only come in the form of an M2 CSL/GTx.

As mentioned above, the US unladen weight and DIN weight (which is also used in AUS) differ and the DIN weight will generally always be less (possibly substantially so). I was under the impression that US unladen weight also includes accessories that are optioned on at least 1/3 of the cars sold (whereas the DIN unladen weight does not) - in the case of the M4/435i/M3/335i, it was up to 100 kg / 220 lbs. So there is a difference in the weight that we both might refer to. My suggestion of 1450 kg / 3200 lbs could be equivalent to a US unladen weight in the vicinity of 1575 kg / 3470 lbs - the additional 125 kg / 270 lbs would be attributed to the options that are currently fitted to a US M235i (in the absence of historical data for options fitted to an M2).

Here are the weights from the BMW sites for the USA and AUS with approximatated weights for the M2. I'm not sure why the M3 weights were listed as being higher than the 335i weights - they just were. Rather than the US weights simply being 2.2048 times the DIN weight (i.e. kg to lbs conversion), it varies between 2.3 and 2.4 times due to the extra inclusions in the US weights. A token 20 kg / 50 lbs saving was applied to the M2 compared to the M235i, as was similarly the case between the M4 and 435i, while a 2.4 multipler was used between the M2 DIN and US weights, as was the case with the M235i.

DIN unladen weight
-- 435i -M4- 335i -M3- 235i -M2-
MT 1510 1497 1510 1520 1455 ~1440
AT 1525 1537 1520 1560 1470 ~1450

US unladen weight
-- 435i -M4- 335i -M3- 235i -M2-
MT 3600 3530 3545 3540 3505 ~3455
AT 3635 3585 3555 3595 3535 ~3485

[hans007]

Originally Posted by 135

Seeing as there are comparisons being drawn between the two cars, I thought it was fair to question the weight difference. Realistically though, the M2 is unlikely to be able to match the GT4/GTS in terms of weight but it is possible that it could get close - or, at least, a lot closer than what is being predicted at the moment.
Note that it seems Porsche USA quote their US weights as DIN unladen converted from kg to lbs, whereas, BMW USA uses US unladen, so it's difficult to draw direct comparisons between the M2 and GT4 in the same way we could with different BMW models.

I think 1450 kg / 3200 lbs DIN unladen weight is very realistic for the M2 (based on comparisons between M4, 435i, M3, 335i and M235i, with extrapolation for M2), therefore, it could be achievable to reach 1400 kg / 3100 lbs DIN unladen, which would compare favourably against the GT4/GTS weight of 1340 kg / 2950 lbs DIN.
The M2 could achieve 1450 kg / 3200 lbs DIN using lightweight materials (a la M3/M4), including a carbon fibre roof. Perhaps that 1400 kg DIN weight may only come in the form of an M2 CSL/GTx.

As mentioned above, the US unladen weight and DIN weight (which is also used in AUS) differ and the DIN weight will generally always be less (possibly substantially so). I was under the impression that US unladen weight also includes accessories that are optioned on at least 1/3 of the cars sold (whereas the DIN unladen weight does not) - in the case of the M4/435i/M3/335i, it was up to 100 kg / 220 lbs. So there is a difference in the weight that we both might refer to. My suggestion of 1450 kg / 3200 lbs could be equivalent to a US unladen weight in the vicinity of 1575 kg / 3470 lbs - the additional 125 kg / 270 lbs would be attributed to the options that are currently fitted to a US M235i (in the absence of historical data for options fitted to an M2).

Here are the weights from the BMW sites for the USA and AUS with approximatated weights for the M2. I'm not sure why the M3 weights were listed as being higher than the 335i weights - they just were. Rather than the US weights simply being 2.2048 times the DIN weight (i.e. kg to lbs conversion), it varies between 2.3 and 2.4 times due to the extra inclusions in the US weights. A token 20 kg / 50 lbs saving was applied to the M2 compared to the M235i, as was similarly the case between the M4 and 435i, while a 2.4 multipler was used between the M2 DIN and US weights, as was the case with the M235i.

DIN unladen weight
-- 435i -M4- 335i -M3- 235i -M2-
MT 1510 1497 1510 1520 1455 ~1440
AT 1525 1537 1520 1560 1470 ~1450

US unladen weight
-- 435i -M4- 335i -M3- 235i -M2-
MT 3600 3530 3545 3540 3505 ~3455
AT 3635 3585 3555 3595 3535 ~3485

assuming the m2 has a DCT, wouldn't it be logical, to assume the "AT" weight and "MT" weight for it would differ by 40KF just like the m3 and m4 seeing as they'd have the same transmission.

that would put the M2 AT at 1480 kg and over 3500lbs.

[hans007]

Originally Posted by W///

Isn't it pretty obvious? One car is designed up from the ground up to be a 2 seater, that happens to be NA, while the other is a 4 seater with a proper trunk, that happens to be turboed.

Not to mention the price. If the M2 starts at let's say $55k (being generous I think), the GT4 is almost 60% more expensive. That's a pretty decent gap.

yeah exactly i'd guess 60% more expensive is a huge factor for most people.

price wise the m2 will likely be around the price of a base cayman. and a base cayman is really really base. it has among other things a 40W stereo and doesnt have standard automatic climate control. it doesnt even have usb ports, or BT audio (yeah yeah, its a sports car it doesnt need luxury wah wah)

i think the theoretical 55k m2, vs a base cayman, is a much more fair comparison (i'm guessing most of us here would take the m2 right?).

[W///]

Originally Posted by 135

Seeing as there are comparisons being drawn between the two cars, I thought it was fair to question the weight difference. Realistically though, the M2 is unlikely to be able to match the GT4/GTS in terms of weight but it is possible that it could get close - or, at least, a lot closer than what is being predicted at the moment.
Note that it seems Porsche USA quote their US weights as DIN unladen converted from kg to lbs, whereas, BMW USA uses US unladen, so it's difficult to draw direct comparisons between the M2 and GT4 in the same way we could with different BMW models.

I think 1450 kg / 3200 lbs DIN unladen weight is very realistic for the M2 (based on comparisons between M4, 435i, M3, 335i and M235i, with extrapolation for M2), therefore, it could be achievable to reach 1400 kg / 3100 lbs DIN unladen, which would compare favourably against the GT4/GTS weight of 1340 kg / 2950 lbs DIN.
The M2 could achieve 1450 kg / 3200 lbs DIN using lightweight materials (a la M3/M4), including a carbon fibre roof. Perhaps that 1400 kg DIN weight may only come in the form of an M2 CSL/GTx.

As mentioned above, the US unladen weight and DIN weight (which is also used in AUS) differ and the DIN weight will generally always be less (possibly substantially so). I was under the impression that US unladen weight also includes accessories that are optioned on at least 1/3 of the cars sold (whereas the DIN unladen weight does not) - in the case of the M4/435i/M3/335i, it was up to 100 kg / 220 lbs. So there is a difference in the weight that we both might refer to. My suggestion of 1450 kg / 3200 lbs could be equivalent to a US unladen weight in the vicinity of 1575 kg / 3470 lbs - the additional 125 kg / 270 lbs would be attributed to the options that are currently fitted to a US M235i (in the absence of historical data for options fitted to an M2).

Here are the weights from the BMW sites for the USA and AUS with approximatated weights for the M2. I'm not sure why the M3 weights were listed as being higher than the 335i weights - they just were. Rather than the US weights simply being 2.2048 times the DIN weight (i.e. kg to lbs conversion), it varies between 2.3 and 2.4 times due to the extra inclusions in the US weights. A token 20 kg / 50 lbs saving was applied to the M2 compared to the M235i, as was similarly the case between the M4 and 435i, while a 2.4 multipler was used between the M2 DIN and US weights, as was the case with the M235i.

DIN unladen weight
-- 435i -M4- 335i -M3- 235i -M2-
MT 1510 1497 1510 1520 1455 ~1440
AT 1525 1537 1520 1560 1470 ~1450

US unladen weight
-- 435i -M4- 335i -M3- 235i -M2-
MT 3600 3530 3545 3540 3505 ~3455
AT 3635 3585 3555 3595 3535 ~3485

Even a CF roof is not going to drop an M235i from 3500 lbs to 3200 lbs. And I don't think there's 250 lbs worth of standard options. Let's put it this way, BMW lost as much weight as humanly possible from the E46 M3 CSL. According to Wiki, it was 240 lbs lighter than a normal M3, and that was with CF everywhere and a more or less stripped interior (which the M2 won't get any of those).

Another example would be the E36 M3 LTW, which only lost 200 lbs even though it didn't have things like sunroof, AC and radio. Not to mention it had aluminum doors.

Maybe if we are lucky, we'll get an M2 CSL and it'll weigh 3200 lbs, but I see 0 chance the standard M2 will be that light. My hope is that my stripper build (probably just metallic paint, LED if available, cloth seats and 6MT) comes from the factory at 3400 lbs. I'll probably ditch the factory exhaust and do some other stuff and hopefully come to 3350 lbs. I'd be more than happy with that. The only way to find out is to do it, and then go weigh it

P.S I still want a GT4 bad, don't get me wrong

[W///]

Originally Posted by hans007

yeah exactly i'd guess 60% more expensive is a huge factor for most people.

price wise the m2 will likely be around the price of a base cayman. and a base cayman is really really base. it has among other things a 40W stereo and doesnt have standard automatic climate control. it doesnt even have usb ports, or BT audio (yeah yeah, its a sports car it doesnt need luxury wah wah)

i think the theoretical 55k m2, vs a base cayman, is a much more fair comparison (i'm guessing most of us here would take the m2 right?).

Hell, a base Cayman doesn't even come with automatic rain sensors (which is fine) or Xenons (which is not!).

Undoubtedly, the M2 will get compared to a GTS or a GT4, and it'll automatically lose because it's not as good as a driver's car (what car out there is?). But it'll claw back some points on being much cheaper, more practical, and maybe more useful on a day to day basis due to torque.

So essentially, it's the 1M vs Cayman R all over again

[135]

Originally Posted by hans007

assuming the m2 has a DCT, wouldn't it be logical, to assume the "AT" weight and "MT" weight for it would differ by 40KF just like the m3 and m4 seeing as they'd have the same transmission.

that would put the M2 AT at 1480 kg and over 3500lbs.

I'd hope that the M2 would be released with the M-DCT, as per the M3 and M4.

I didn't calculate weight based on one component (e.g. transmission) and I didn't base it on MT vs AT for a particular model - it was generally determined using a 435i vs M4 comparison. Therefore, the M235i was used as the starting weight for the M2 with a similar weight reduction applied as what was found between the 435i MT and M4 MT. Since the car is a sum of its parts, the M235i MT vs DCT weights had already taken the DCT into consideration, which resulted in a less than 40 kg difference - 15 kg to be exact. So it appears the weight saving of the DCT in the M235i is not as great as the M4.

Some of the weights are strange - for the M3, in all cases except the US MT, the M3 weighs more than the 335i. And for the M4, the AT DIN is more than the 435i AT DIN. And those are BMWs published weights

Yes, you could have used the M235i MT weight subtracted 15kg to give the M2 MT weight and then added 40kg to give the M2 AT weight. But none of this really matters until the official release states the weights.

[135]

Originally Posted by hans007

yeah exactly i'd guess 60% more expensive is a huge factor for most people.

price wise the m2 will likely be around the price of a base cayman. and a base cayman is really really base. it has among other things a 40W stereo and doesnt have standard automatic climate control. it doesnt even have usb ports, or BT audio (yeah yeah, its a sports car it doesnt need luxury wah wah)

i think the theoretical 55k m2, vs a base cayman, is a much more fair comparison (i'm guessing most of us here would take the m2 right?).

The base Cayman is a fair comparison for the M2 if comparing by cost alone. If comparing by performance then the base Cayman doesn't come close. So, yes, everyone should take an M2