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2Addicts | BMW 2-Series forum BMW 2 Series (F22) Forum BMW 2 Series Coupe and Cabriolet (F22/F23) General Forum BMW M Performance LSD for M235i, 335i, 435i Arrives. Pricing and technical FAQ inside

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      05-09-2014, 11:09 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramos View Post
Thank you, but again too technical, how does either of these locking percentages feel from behind the wheel? Is 100% better than 30% and why? I do 3-4 track days a year. Thanks
One of your questions hasn't been given much feedback, so I figured I'd chime in. Specifically, how does it feel behind the wheel.

A well spec'd LSD should give you greater traction under acceleration, which helps getting out of corners. It should not impact turn-in on corner entry. What's important to note about lockup is that more lockup means the car wants to go straight. Not sure if you have any friends with an ATV, but they're a great way to understand the steering impact of a locked up rear axle. Turning an ATV at low speed is very hard. Especially if they're 2WD.

A locked rear axle means the traction of the rear tires keeps the car going straight. That results in low speed understeer.

Fortunately, LSD technology allows us greater flexibility. In this case, 30% under acceleration, and 9% under deceleration. This makes sense when you think about it. You're normally decelerating in to a corner, which is when you want the car to rotate easily based on steering input. The lower resistance helps keep the car rotating easily. When you get on the gas, the LSD goes to 30% lockup, and you get maximum traction on exit. You can dial in additional oversteer by applying more throttle.

I really do recommend trying to get a ride on an ATV. Try turning it at low speed. For great fun, try pushing the ATV while it's off, then have someone turn the wheel. You'll get a real appreciation for why we don't all drive around on a spool (welded diff).

It helps to have a working understanding of how a differential works too. This video is really old, but I think it's one of the best illustrations of how they work. You should check it out.

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      05-09-2014, 11:54 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleyland View Post
One of your questions hasn't been given much feedback, so I figured I'd chime in. Specifically, how does it feel behind the wheel.

A well spec'd LSD should give you greater traction under acceleration, which helps getting out of corners. It should not impact turn-in on corner entry. What's important to note about lockup is that more lockup means the car wants to go straight. Not sure if you have any friends with an ATV, but they're a great way to understand the steering impact of a locked up rear axle. Turning an ATV at low speed is very hard. Especially if they're 2WD.

A locked rear axle means the traction of the rear tires keeps the car going straight. That results in low speed understeer.

Fortunately, LSD technology allows us greater flexibility. In this case, 30% under acceleration, and 9% under deceleration. This makes sense when you think about it. You're normally decelerating in to a corner, which is when you want the car to rotate easily based on steering input. The lower resistance helps keep the car rotating easily. When you get on the gas, the LSD goes to 30% lockup, and you get maximum traction on exit. You can dial in additional oversteer by applying more throttle.

I really do recommend trying to get a ride on an ATV. Try turning it at low speed. For great fun, try pushing the ATV while it's off, then have someone turn the wheel. You'll get a real appreciation for why we don't all drive around on a spool (welded diff).

It helps to have a working understanding of how a differential works too. This video is really old, but I think it's one of the best illustrations of how they work. You should check it out.

Perfect post, I didn't want to dive into my opinions on this LSD without having driven it but I believe 30%/9% is a great compromise for this type of LSD on a street and occasional track car. Considering its price relative to the competition and the fact that it's an OEM BMW part with a full warranty, if I had a 2/3/4 series this is the first thing I would buy for it.
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      05-09-2014, 01:19 PM   #69
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$3k MSRP for a full bolt in diff installed in a new pumpkin is not that bad. Price out a quality quiafe or OS rear diff, gear install and removal/install and you are not far off. For what you get in a full bolt in/ swap in assembly its a decent value.
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      05-09-2014, 01:20 PM   #70
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Price is ok, but somewhat disappointing that it's not a factory option install (yet).

A Cadillac ATS has a mechanical diff right from factory.
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      05-09-2014, 02:20 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by GTM_Challenge View Post
$3k MSRP for a full bolt in diff installed in a new pumpkin is not that bad. Price out a quality quiafe or OS rear diff, gear install and removal/install and you are not far off. For what you get in a full bolt in/ swap in assembly its a decent value.
That's kind of what I was thinking. Prices on LSDs vary quite a bit, but you have to look at the details. Is there a core charge? Do you have to ship your existing diff somewhere? How long will you be without it? What kind of work do you have to do to install?

Some diffs require you transfer the ring gear (and sometimes more) from the old diff to the new. Those bolts have to be properly torqued and the appropriate thread lock applied. If the tech who does the work doesn't do a good job cleaning up and re-applying the thread lock, you can end up with loose hardware in your rear-end in a surprisingly short period. That's, uh... not good for long term operation

It's not rocket science. Any competent shop can do the job, and you should never have a problem. It's surprising how difficult it is to assess competency though. It's worth a little extra coin, IMO, to get a factory assembled unit with a warranty.

Then again, I'm sure someone will be along shortly to point out some place where I can get a fully assembled, warrantied diff for $1,000 less. That's the aftermarket for you
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      05-09-2014, 03:52 PM   #72
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As someone said above, this is actually a really good price concidering it's a factory BMW product. If I understand correctly, this diff comes as a whole (pumpkin, LSD unit, Ring & Pinion, etc) all in one. So it's just a straight swap. Not bad at all. Most LSD's will cost north of $4000 to do properly (a good one that is).

30% is fine for the street.
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      05-09-2014, 04:19 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleyland
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramos View Post
Thank you, but again too technical, how does either of these locking percentages feel from behind the wheel? Is 100% better than 30% and why? I do 3-4 track days a year. Thanks
One of your questions hasn't been given much feedback, so I figured I'd chime in. Specifically, how does it feel behind the wheel.

A well spec'd LSD should give you greater traction under acceleration, which helps getting out of corners. It should not impact turn-in on corner entry. What's important to note about lockup is that more lockup means the car wants to go straight. Not sure if you have any friends with an ATV, but they're a great way to understand the steering impact of a locked up rear axle. Turning an ATV at low speed is very hard. Especially if they're 2WD.

A locked rear axle means the traction of the rear tires keeps the car going straight. That results in low speed understeer.

Fortunately, LSD technology allows us greater flexibility. In this case, 30% under acceleration, and 9% under deceleration. This makes sense when you think about it. You're normally decelerating in to a corner, which is when you want the car to rotate easily based on steering input. The lower resistance helps keep the car rotating easily. When you get on the gas, the LSD goes to 30% lockup, and you get maximum traction on exit. You can dial in additional oversteer by applying more throttle.

I really do recommend trying to get a ride on an ATV. Try turning it at low speed. For great fun, try pushing the ATV while it's off, then have someone turn the wheel. You'll get a real appreciation for why we don't all drive around on a spool (welded diff).

It helps to have a working understanding of how a differential works too. This video is really old, but I think it's one of the best illustrations of how they work. You should check it out.

Excellent explaination

So if a drifter (or wannabe drifter) can drift easier by apply the right amount of throttle to create oversteer and control it with countersteer...am I right??
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      05-09-2014, 04:51 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by ska325xi View Post
Excellent explaination

So if a drifter (or wannabe drifter) can drift easier by apply the right amount of throttle to create oversteer and control it with countersteer...am I right??
Yep. Drifters take it one step further though, because they're not concerned with slow speed handling. They just run something called a spool, which has no differential gears at all. It has a mounting place for the ring gear attached to a solid rod, and female splines for the axles to slip in to. Here's a giant one from a truck:

http://image.4wdandsportutility.com/...easurement.jpg

Drifters usually run spools, which introduces another effect that actually makes the rear end very loose.

As you increase the amount of lock, you can also end up with something called scrub. People call it different things, but scrub is when your tires skid during turns because the amount of differential resistance exceeds tire grip. This only happens with certain types of LSDs though, and you don't usually see them in use on street cars (more often off-road). The one from BMW isn't going to scrub at all. In a race car, you really don't want scrub, because it reduces rear-end grip in tight corners.

A tire loses grip very quickly once it starts to skid, so the scrub that occurs with a spool will actually cause the rear end to be more lose than if you had an open diff. Drifters love this side effect though, because it makes it easier to get the rear to step out.

The other place you see spools and unsophisticated LSDs that scrub are in off-road vehicles. My dad has an old beater Suzuki Samurai with a spooled rear end. It's a beater truck for out at the ranch (in Central Florida). It is amazing how much more you can drive through (mud, sand, etc) with a spooled rear end, but when it comes to turning around, it's a nightmare. The front tires just want to slide. When you're driving on dirt roads, you have to be careful too, because it will snap oversteer on you at medium speeds. Sure is fun though
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      05-09-2014, 06:01 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleyland View Post
Yep. Drifters take it one step further though, because they're not concerned with slow speed handling. They just run something called a spool, which has no differential gears at all. It has a mounting place for the ring gear attached to a solid rod, and female splines for the axles to slip in to. Here's a giant one from a truck:

http://image.4wdandsportutility.com/...easurement.jpg

Drifters usually run spools, which introduces another effect that actually makes the rear end very loose.

As you increase the amount of lock, you can also end up with something called scrub. People call it different things, but scrub is when your tires skid during turns because the amount of differential resistance exceeds tire grip. This only happens with certain types of LSDs though, and you don't usually see them in use on street cars (more often off-road). The one from BMW isn't going to scrub at all. In a race car, you really don't want scrub, because it reduces rear-end grip in tight corners.

A tire loses grip very quickly once it starts to skid, so the scrub that occurs with a spool will actually cause the rear end to be more lose than if you had an open diff. Drifters love this side effect though, because it makes it easier to get the rear to step out.

The other place you see spools and unsophisticated LSDs that scrub are in off-road vehicles. My dad has an old beater Suzuki Samurai with a spooled rear end. It's a beater truck for out at the ranch (in Central Florida). It is amazing how much more you can drive through (mud, sand, etc) with a spooled rear end, but when it comes to turning around, it's a nightmare. The front tires just want to slide. When you're driving on dirt roads, you have to be careful too, because it will snap oversteer on you at medium speeds. Sure is fun though
Brilliant writeups, Bradley. Thx for posting.
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      05-09-2014, 08:04 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Remonster
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramos View Post
Can someone please explain the meaning of these locking % being thrown around? Whats the difference between 30% and 100% from behind there wheel in non technical speak?
On a normal car with an open diff, if one tire slips all of the power is wasted spinning that tire while the other one with grip essentially gets no power. A limited slip differential limits the speed difference between the wheels to ensure some of the power always goes to the wheel with grip.

When you have a "25% LSD", the maximum difference in power received by the rear wheels is 25%. With a 25% diff, one side can receive up to 62.5% of the total torque while the other gets 37.5%. Higher % can be beneficial in certain situations like accelerating hard out of a corner, but higher % also increases understeer in slow corners and increases oversteer in the rain (sounds counter-intuitive but basically you are making it harder for the two rear wheels to spin at different speeds in a corner).

For a street car, I would say 20-40% is ideal. Older BMWs with LSDs like the E36 M3 had 25% lockup so this new one is actually more aggressive. The fact that it only locks 9% on deceleration means that it actually won't cause understeer on corner entry and the 30% acceleration lock is not enough to make it dangerous in slippery conditions.

The current M cars use an electronically-variable lock which allows them to vary lockup as needed. These diffs are incredible but they are much more difficult to retrofit onto a car since they need to tap into wheel speed sensors and probably the car's computer systems to function so obviously BMW didn't want to offer such a complex unit as an upgrade for the standard cars. I personally think the price and ease of installation are perfect for this LSD when you consider that it won't be noisy like some aftermarket diffs, doesn't require service as often as some aftermarket diffs (I don't believe it's truly lifetime, I'd probably replace the oil every 50-100,000 miles), and comes with a warranty.

I avoided using the term "lockup" because some people describe LSDs the opposite way where 100% lockup means there is NO difference in the speed of the two rear wheels or the power applied to each. This is, as someone above said, like having a welded diff and is what drifters use but it would be terrible to drive around with a fully locked diff all the time, the car would be very difficult to turn.
Thanks for the nice explanation
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      05-10-2014, 11:33 AM   #77
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That's some serious money, how many tenths of a second does it shave on those 5 track days per year?
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      05-11-2014, 06:46 AM   #78
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The other option to consider is simply having www.diffsonline.com build you a customer LSD for the specific use you have planned. You can choose something like a 3-disc setup with ramp angles to give you the aggressiveness or lack thereof on acceleration and deceleration. You could also choose to go with a wavetrac, quaife, os giken LSD designs if desired. Don't underestimate the resale value of the diff when you're done with it also. If it's in good shape in 2-3 years, you can probably get about 60-70% of your money back selling it while in the meantime enjoying exactly what you'd like to have.

disclaimer: I have no connection with diffsonline other than selling them an E39 M5 diff years ago (my M5 LSD discs gave it up by 50k miles, so I bought a new one from BMW which I got an incredible discount on at the time) where I found Dan excellent to do business with, so I'd use them again in the future.

To answer that question about the E9x M3 and E6x M5/6 LSDs -- those are viscous action LSDs with lockup varying from 0-100% based on load and slip. On corner entry (deceleration) they are open, 0%, so no corner entry to apex pushing. The "issue" some have with these is that they require slip to have started to begin to function, but I will say that it works right away and is very progressive with load (power). My jury is still out on my overall opinion of it, but I think you'll find no racer would care for the design -- they would much prefer an "old" Salisbury LSD with proper ramp angles for load/unload they want and the static lock they desire in order to give a more predictive and functional solution on track.

I can say that comparing the E90 M3 LSD and the one in my E39 M5 (which btw is stock, 25% Salisbury LSD from BMW like the one being discussed in this thread), is that for serious driving on R-comps, the M5 diff is too weak. It needs much more locking on acceleration as the torque of the S62 can still spin the inside tire too much on corner exit on something like NT-01s or Hoosier A6s (hence the reason I wore out the discs in my unit by the time I had 50k miles on the car ). When I back-to-back these cars, I can tell right away how the M5 diff is allowing too much inside tire slip when powering out of a 2nd gear corner for example. The M3 feels more connected and can really put the power down on corner exit.

Regards,
Chuck
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      05-11-2014, 03:32 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSBM5 View Post
To answer that question about the E9x M3 and E6x M5/6 LSDs -- those are viscous action LSDs with lockup varying from 0-100% based on load and slip. On corner entry (deceleration) they are open, 0%, so no corner entry to apex pushing. The "issue" some have with these is that they require slip to have started to begin to function, but I will say that it works right away and is very progressive with load (power). My jury is still out on my overall opinion of it, but I think you'll find no racer would care for the design -- they would much prefer an "old" Salisbury LSD with proper ramp angles for load/unload they want and the static lock they desire in order to give a more predictive and functional solution on track.
Yeah, the reason racers don't like the viscous LSDs is because once you've got slip, you've got loss of traction. Depending on your lateral load, that can cause the outside tire to blow past its traction limit, and you end up with less forward thrust, and more sideways drift (increased oversteer). Granted, it only matters when you're down to tenths of a second, which is exactly what racers are concerned with. It can be a confidence killer though. The slip that results from a viscous LSD can be unsettling to the chassis, which can have varying results based on how close you are to the edge.

Great info in your post
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      05-11-2014, 09:06 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleyland View Post
Yeah, the reason racers don't like the viscous LSDs is because once you've got slip, you've got loss of traction. Depending on your lateral load, that can cause the outside tire to blow past its traction limit, and you end up with less forward thrust, and more sideways drift (increased oversteer). Granted, it only matters when you're down to tenths of a second, which is exactly what racers are concerned with. It can be a confidence killer though. The slip that results from a viscous LSD can be unsettling to the chassis, which can have varying results based on how close you are to the edge.

Great info in your post
Exactly! This is the reason why it is sooo easy to make nicely controlled drifts on an autox course in my M3. It takes a change in driving style to preclude these time wasting moments (no matter how much fun they are), and I'm slowly adapting. Nonetheless, these cars (E39 M5, E90 M3) are just d**m fun to drive on course.

Cheers,
Chuck
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      05-15-2014, 12:16 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OBMWBrian View Post
There are no core charges for these diffs at all, as is stated in the original post.

Also, BMW will be releasing a version of this diff for the F30/F32/F33 with manual transmissions soon. The differentials are different between the manual trans and auto trans cars, so they have to be developed separately, to an extent.
Brian,
I'm trying to contact you at Otto's but I can't find your name. What's your contact info?
I would have PM'd you directly, but you don't have that option when I click your name.
Thanks 耀
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      05-22-2014, 10:07 AM   #82
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Surprised they now went for a "1.5" way diff instead of a "2" way like the old units were (same ramp angle on accell and decel). Those these were 25% lock.
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      05-24-2014, 04:41 AM   #83
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Jason,
Hi. I didn't see the F36 listed. At first I hoped it was because the F36 wasn't on sale yet...but that might be wishful thinking? Does the M Performance LSD not fit in the F36? And if not, will there be a version in the future? Thanks!
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      05-24-2014, 09:49 AM   #84
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No real evidence to support this, but I believe the F30 and F36 platform are the same, so it should fit.
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      05-25-2014, 05:19 PM   #85
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3k? Wonder how much price difference the M2 will be? 6-7k? Rather wait for M2.
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      08-31-2015, 11:51 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F30.M View Post
Is this xDrive compatible?
I'm looking for the same information. BMW's site lists it as xDrive compatible but the local dealership told me it is not.

Calling BMW customer relations just referred me to the dealer.

Is there a definite source? People on this site seem very knowledgeable so my apologies if this may seem obvious...
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      08-31-2015, 01:40 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by voukephalas View Post
I'm looking for the same information. BMW's site lists it as xDrive compatible but the local dealership told me it is not.

Calling BMW customer relations just referred me to the dealer.

Is there a definite source? People on this site seem very knowledgeable so my apologies if this may seem obvious...
I would think that as long as the gear ratio is the same, that it would work just fine.
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      02-22-2016, 03:18 PM   #88
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Anyone know if the ring gear is welded or bolted in these M Performance LSD? (Bolted makes for a much easier and DIY rebuild when time comes).
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