[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by Hazey82

This is too funny.
Maybe it's a yank thing but we just don't see this down under. There are currently 15 1Ms listed here for sale ranging from 70k to 90k and it was 110k brand new. Whoever is buying 1Ms there for over original msrp is just an idiot especially when M2 is around the corner

E46 M3s and even manual E92 here are starting to hold there value now and I can even see them going up with time. Total opposite of the 1M here.
Don't make out like I'm saying E46 is better than 1M or M2 because I'm not and to a degree it isn't. You all totally missing my point I'm talking about the engine that's it! Sheesh

Autotrader is your friend... the Aussie market is unique because of the high tarriffs.

not missing your singular point at all.. I love engine sounds too.. guess what... The S14 kicks ass over the S54 ;-)

[bobloblaw]

Did you even read my post?

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

your entire argument is trumped by the original. 1M. It was brilliant.. Can't you simply accept the " rushed to market in such a short time" as marketing speak? a way for BMW to hedge it's bets in the event the 1M fell flat.,... (welll.. we didnt really put forth our best effort).... I guess you bought that hook line and sinker??

God forbid I believe the freaking CEO of BMW M when he says: "The development time of the engine was very short – engineers took only about a year to build it if not less, beginning in October 2009. In December 2009 the decision was made to build the 1M. Dr. segler championed the project and made all major decisions. Took around 1 year to develop and test the car." I guess you know better than him.

And so now.. you expect them to find lighting in a bottle a second time... and you expect them to make it better than the 1M... and now that BMW AG has used the formula as they did to make the original brilliant item...the 1M... in making the M2... you are already disappointed in the result.... and before it has even come to market...

I never said I was disappointed...I said multiple times I am sure the car will be fun to drive. It's just one of my fears that this formula of slapping M3/4 parts in a 2 series chassis will get long in the tooth eventually. I just know BMW is capable of more.

And you want " so much more"... you want " NEW ENERGY" from the M division...
Sounds to me like you want..

I never said I want "so much more" but that I know they are capable of so much more than reusing the same formula...

more CF....

I specifically say "I'm not asking for carbon fiber everything"

bolder styling..

I never once mentioned styling. The renders look really good to me.

perhaps a more exciting motor..

Yes

perhaps some wilder colors..

Not wilder. You really love inferring things from text. Nothing wrong with more choice

more weight savings..

In the future yes, but I know the 2 series is a heavy canvas to start out with, and I know they had limitations. As I said before (which you ignored) I know they can't slap carbon fiber on everything in this car since it would make it extremely expensive.

Sure sounds to me like there already are hints at what you want....M2 CSL...

You make it sound like I'm insulting your mother or something when I just listed a couple minor complaints and future hopes for the M2.

[Artemis]

As I posted before, it wouldn't surprise me that the M2 CSL might be a track-focused 4-banger, somewhere in the ± 3100 lbs / ± 1400 kg zone, stripped to the very essence, two-seater (roll cage), sports seats, extensive use of CF and CFRP and a price-tag deep within M3/M4 territory. But street legal (unlike the M235i Racing).

The mad brother of the base M2 + marketing picturing it next to notorious M3 4-bangers of decades ago, accompanied by "///M Pure" or "///M Hardcore" slogans.

BMW did evaluate 4 cylinders for application in the M2. There is a 4-cyl with Power eDrive and eBoost which can produce around 450 PS. Go figure !

Now here's my point: if the M2 CSL goes 4-cyl, we're bound to get a never-ending discussion too, loaded with 6-cyl nostalgia, with reference to core values and alleged ///M treason, etc.

But then again, the next gen Porsche 2-seater models Boxster and Cayman go turbo 4-banger. Less weight, improved handling/braking, improved fuel consumption figures, less CO2 emissions.

Car sound ain't a trivial aspect, that much is true. As a matter of fact, I like some mean grunt too. But it won't be the most defining aspect to assess the car - it's part of the big(ger) package. The way how the car drives/handles and how it's experienced by those on board, matters more.

Cherish the past - Embrace the future.

[bobloblaw]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Now here's my point: if the M2 CSL goes 4-cyl, we're bound to get a never-ending discussion too, loaded with 6-cyl nostalgia, with reference to core values and alleged ///M treason, etc.

Eh I'm not so sure, man. If BMW can make a 4 cylinder work, that means the weight will have been cut low enough for them to be comfortable enough to use a 4-cyl. The execs of AMG/M/RS have said the the horsepower wars are over and I think customers will accept that. As BMW's carbon core eventually trickles down to the cheaper models, I think we'll see smaller engines. Also, I think most people have gotten their "turbochargers are blasphemy!" stuff out of their systems

[Hazey82]

Originally Posted by bobloblaw

Did you even read my post?

You make it sound like I'm insulting your mother or something when I just listed a couple minor complaints and future hopes for the M2.

Get used to it. God forbid someone comes on here and tells it like it is. Some people just read what they want to hear so they can have their piece. There are some people that are trolls and who obviously add no value but when you have people like yourself and I who still have interest in M2 but just stipulate some simple basic observations making complete sense there are a minority on here that cry to the defence of BMW.

[W///]

Originally Posted by Hazey82

So you got the new M2 huh? Yep she's a beast.
Wait...Doesn't it have the same engine as an X4? Umm yeah but it handles much much better...

Some of you guys are in such denial. I want this M2 trust me but when you see bullshit you got to call it. And so many come to its defence.
Talk about 1M all you like but I chose my E46 M3 over it and it will have more soul and character then that car will ever have I don't care how limited the 1M is.

And it seems BMW are throwing M badges all over the place on cars now. Kind of dilutes the true M brand if you ask me.

Have you drive the 1M? As a matter of fact, have you driven the M235i or M3/4?

Not being a dick, just legitimately asking.

[SW19]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

Autotrader is your friend... the Aussie market is unique because of the high tarriffs.

not missing your singular point at all.. I love engine sounds too.. guess what... The S14 kicks ass over the S54 ;-)

You should actually take a look at what low mileage E46 M3's are going for in autotrader.They are going up in value now.Not from there original price,but from what the depreciated value was a few years ago.The only reason the 1M values are so high is because they didn't make that many of them.That is the only reason.I would much rather have my E46 M3 than a 1M and yes I am also ordering an M2.

[Hazey82]

Originally Posted by W///

Have you drive the 1M? As a matter of fact, have you driven the M235i or M3/4?

Not being a dick, just legitimately asking.

Had a deposit on the 1M but cancelled. I've experienced N54 in a 135i
And yes I've driven the m235i (found it very unappealing to rev out. Sounded ok but fake and lacking top end) and the M4 had MPE was a beast and loud. Would need more seat time to gauge how confident I'd be to throw it around corners. The m235i felt more at home (e46)for size hence why I've got deposits down at 2 dealerships for the last 6 months.

[Hazey82]

Originally Posted by Nantucket

You should actually take a look at what low mileage E46 M3's are going for in autotrader.They are going up in value now.Not from there original price,but from what the depreciated value was a few years ago.The only reason the 1M values are so high is because they didn't make that many of them.That is the only reason.I would much rather have my E46 M3 than a 1M and yes I am also ordering an M2.

Are you keeping the m3? I've thought about keeping the M3 for all the reasons of timeless design, special raw feeling and NA sweet six while getting the M2. But I know the new car bug has hit and Id be waking up early in the morning always choosing the M2. I just couldn't justify 45K current value to sit there and look pretty and talk about it at the pub to people.

[mc3456]

If the 0-62MPH delta is 0.6 second on a 4,000 lbs X4, then the M2 is going to be something very special. N55 or not, I'd expect 370-380 hp for an M2, and in a 500 lbs lighter car, it is going to everything we'd love to see and more. People just need to be patient. I'd rather M takes there time getting it right than rushing out a half baked product.

[IS3andME]

Originally Posted by bobloblaw

Eh I'm not so sure, man. If BMW can make a 4 cylinder work, that means the weight will have been cut low enough for them to be comfortable enough to use a 4-cyl. The execs of AMG/M/RS have said the the horsepower wars are over and I think customers will accept that. As BMW's carbon core eventually trickles down to the cheaper models, I think we'll see smaller engines. Also, I think most people have gotten their "turbochargers are blasphemy!" stuff out of their systems

Hahahaha, they never said the horsepower wars are over. The CLA45/A45 has 381 hp, and we haven't even gotten to the Black Series yet...and even Porsche said that their turbo fours can put out 400 hp. The horsepower wars are far from being over.
BMW had apparently said that 600 was the magic number, I believe (in terms of RWD and traction). But, that doesn't mean that they cannot find a way to go over that.

[bobloblaw]

Originally Posted by IS3andME

Hahahaha, they never said the horsepower wars are over. The CLA45/A45 has 381 hp, and we haven't even gotten to the Black Series yet...and even Porsche said that their turbo fours can put out 400 hp. The horsepower wars are far from being over.
BMW had apparently said that 600 was the magic number, I believe (in terms of RWD and traction). But, that doesn't mean that they cannot find a way to go over that.

Porsche's GT car chief said "“I’m not a believer in this horsepower monster, up, up, up, more, more, more,” he said. “For my personal tastes, around 500 hp is enough, because 700-800 hp calls for bigger brakes, sturdier suspension. It gets heavier and heavier logically.”


"The horsepower war is over," declares Volker Mornhinweg, head of Mercedes-Benz's performance division AMG.

AMG says that it will now focus on a lower emissions strategy for all future models. Mornhinweg says the tuner will pursue technologies that create improved performance and economy by reducing curb weight and optimizing engines and transmissions.

And the 600hp BMW cap you mentioned. You're right though, whether they put their money where their mouths are remains to be seen. I think it will take a few generations, when cars get lighter with cheaper carbon fiber production.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by IS3andME

Hahahaha, they never said the horsepower wars are over. The CLA45/A45 has 381 hp, and we haven't even gotten to the Black Series yet...and even Porsche said that their turbo fours can put out 400 hp. The horsepower wars are far from being over.
BMW had apparently said that 600 was the magic number, I believe (in terms of RWD and traction). But, that doesn't mean that they cannot find a way to go over that.

Same goes for top speed. Gentlemen's agreement between German manufacturers to limit V-max to 250 km/h. "Ja, ja, we all limit." And over time, V-max without 250 Km/h limiter became an option. For BMW M it's the "M Driver's Package", well, AFAIK not for US spec. Will also be available for the M2 (option 7ME).
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=981235

[IS3andME]

Originally Posted by bobloblaw

Porsche's GT car chief said "“I’m not a believer in this horsepower monster, up, up, up, more, more, more,” he said. “For my personal tastes, around 500 hp is enough, because 700-800 hp calls for bigger brakes, sturdier suspension. It gets heavier and heavier logically.”


"The horsepower war is over," declares Volker Mornhinweg, head of Mercedes-Benz's performance division AMG.

AMG says that it will now focus on a lower emissions strategy for all future models. Mornhinweg says the tuner will pursue technologies that create improved performance and economy by reducing curb weight and optimizing engines and transmissions.

And the 600hp BMW cap you mentioned. You're right though, whether they put their money where their mouths are remains to be seen. I think it will take a few generations, when cars get lighter with cheaper carbon fiber production.

Yep, Porsche GT chief did say that. Forgot about that. And what Mecedes said.But this is the German car Marques talking. I don't believe anything they say.
Especially when the Cadillac CTS-V has 640 hp. Now, you KNOW BMW M and Mercedes AMG will try and leapfrog that with the next M5 and E63 AMG, respectively
The next GT3 could have more than 500 and also be lighter. Think about it, the Mustang GT350/R has a 520 Hp naturally aspirated flat plane V8. And the car is not as light as the GT3, but it is getting noticed by the press.

And Mercedes, please. They could be saying that just to dupe the competition.
When push comes to shove, especially when the shove comes from rivals like the Americans, the Germans will up the ante.

[ACZakka325i]

It is widely recognized that automakers are shooting for lightness and not power going forward.

Yes, cars may get slight bumps in power (similar to the m4 over e92 m3) because it is makes more sense to consumers and is more marketable. But at some point none of the extra power is usable and comes at the detriment of handling and efficiency.

[W///]

Originally Posted by ACZakka325i

It is widely recognized that automakers are shooting for lightness and not power going forward.

Yes, cars may get slight bumps in power (similar to the m4 over e92 m3) because it is makes more sense to consumers and is more marketable. But at some point none of the extra power is usable and comes at the detriment of handling and efficiency.

We all know that's a bunch of lies. Have you guys seen what the S55 are making on the dyno? That's not what I call a slight bump, no matter what the brochure says.

And how much would you guys like to bet that when the Competition Pack comes out, it'll add even more.

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by W///

Absolutely agreed. I wonder what will happen when the reviews of the M2 comes out and it turns out to be the best driving BMW in the range even with this non-S engine.

Let's face it, the NA engines are gone and have been for a couple of years now. As Chris Harris says, maybe these people just need to get over themselves.

Or you go out and buy something from a different brand like I did - that's the thing, unless you really "vote with your wallet" then there is 0 incentive for a manufacturer to do anything about these complaints.

Besides the Cayman and Boxster, there are other NA options for small and sporty coupes - they just aren't contained within the BMW line. So one has to determine for themselves if the wait for the M2 or the proposed spec sheet or the missing M bits (CF roof, hood bulge, CCB, etc.) are such annoyances that they need to leave the brand. A combination of those factors led me down a path to where the 981 was the best option for me...and it is an awesome car. But I really think the M2 is going to be awesome too.

Now that I've had the 981 for three + months, I am completely addicted to the balance and "stuck to the road" feeling that the car gives me. The M2 will be very similar, albeit probably a little more inclined to oversteer. but that's what is fun about these cars - not them being insanely fast in a straight line. That's waiting for you at your local GM or Ford dealer, if that's what you want...

[blefevre]

Even if the M2 uses the exact same tuning I will be happy. I was expecting most of the development to be spent where it counts, the suspension/chassis, and was thinking the motor would only produce ~340hp. This works just fine for me. Enjoy the M2 for what it is...an entry level M car which hopefully has wonderful handling characteristics.

[Wozich]

It will be really weird if the M2 gets this engine. Here are some thoughts why. First of all, if you look at the 340i (B58) with the new M performance power and sound kit, then you'll see it has 360PS (355bhp) and 500Nm (369ft-lbs) of torgue (Link). So the same power as the X4 M40i, but more torque (35Nm). But the pre-LCI F30 335i with the MPP kit had the exact figures as the M235i. And now the new M240i is going to have just ~15hp more than the standard 340i (according to ynguldyn) and ~20hp less than the 340i with MPP kit.

What I'm trying to say is that, if this is all true, then BMW is going to have 3 different engine outputs with 2 different engines with just 20PS difference between them. 360PS for N55 (X4, M2) and B58 (340i MPP), ~340PS for B58 (M240i). Which to me doesn't make any sense. Why don't they put the B58 with 360PS into the M2? It has more torque, max power is between 5500-6500rpm (revs higher) and it's a newer engine than the N55.

Or am I missing something?

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by Wositsch

It will be really weird if the M2 gets this engine. Here are some thoughts why. First of all, if you look at the 340i (B58) with the new M performance power and sound kit, then you'll see it has 360PS (355bhp) and 500Nm (369ft-lbs) of torgue (Link). So the same power as the X4 M40i, but more torque (35Nm). But the pre-LCI F30 335i with the MPP kit had the exact figures as the M235i. And now the new M240i is going to have just ~15hp more than the standard 340i (according to ynguldyn) and ~20hp less than the 340i with MPP kit.

What I'm trying to say is that, if this is all true, then BMW is going to have 3 different engine outputs with 2 different engines with just 20PS difference between them. 360PS for N55 (X4, M2) and B58 (340i MPP), ~340PS for B58 (M240i). Which to me doesn't make any sense. Why don't they put the B58 with 360PS into the M2? It has more torque, max power is between 5500-6500rpm (revs higher) and it's a newer engine than the N55.

Or am I missing something?

Unless I am mistaken, it is common for the M version of each series to utilize an s derived or M-massaged version of the existing engine - in this case the N55. The M2 has been developed with the massaged N55 this entire time - I am not sure BMW would decide to toss the B series engine in now.

Also, think of the Porsche comparison for the 981:

Base 981: 275 BHP
981 S: 325 BHP
981 GTS: 340 BHP
981 Spyder: 370 BHP
981 GT4: 380 BHP

Pretty similar levels of power, wouldn't you say? And these are all the same body style! I think the idea is that more choice is better than no choice. You can have a high BHP car with lots of options, a low BHP car with no options, and everything in-between. I, for one, am glad to have as many choices as possible, because then you can spec out the car in a manner that is conducive to your particular tastes. Which is good.

[Steven1077]

Lets face it 360 BHP is plenty

[W///]

Originally Posted by Steven1077

Lets face it 360 BHP is plenty

Holy sht. We agree on something!