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      12-01-2014, 09:56 AM   #67
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Well, Porsche uses a mid engined design for their fastest race cars, so I think that says a lot. And the now nixed 960 was to be mid-engined. The rear engined design definitely has advantages but mid-engine cars rotate better and still have excellent traction. Even GT3s were struggling with understeer for years.

The Cayman is handicapped by less development and inferior design choices like the strut rest suspension. By contrast, Porsche continues to develop the 911 because that is what they are known for. So it's not at all a fair comparison.
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      12-01-2014, 11:13 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by FTS View Post
I suspect you are looking for a late model vehicle, if not I would recommend the 1983 911 SC, 964 RSA or 1998 993 911 C2. If you are looking for a late model, starting out with a 997 911 or 991 911, base is not a bad choice. Frankly, a 981 Cayman (base) would be even better despite its limitations just because of the price differences, and turning the 981 to a track car is much less costly.

This relates to the above: Cayman has bigger limitations in comparison to the 911, however, it is still a wonderful car and very track capable. The 981 CS is still faster on the track than an e92 M3 stock for stock. Its all relative


The best platform to start that adventure is the GT3 IMHO, however, a base 911 or Cayman will do just fine as well as I mentioned above. One of the wonderful things about Porsche models is many things are interchangeable between models, even if decade aparts. Look at Pete, a 997 Cup Motor in a 911 of very early years, I cannot even imagine the level of fun he is having at the track with it. Engines, transmissions, suspension components, interior stuff are mostly interchangeable between base 911 and GT3 or Cayman. So, getting a base car and moving it up is very possible and I believe it costs less to do so than other brands that I know.

PTV is very controversial for me. I really do not like that Porsche is incorporating increasing amount of electronics that make decisions instead of me. Unfortunately I have had personal experiences with very negative consequences in this regard, hence I just cannot get over the fact that the ABS will brake a single corner without my input. The modern ABS already varies the brake pressure per corner without any input from me, and now even if I do not touch the brake pedal it may still brake for me thinking it knows more than me about what I am doing or about to do; utterly ridiculous!

The Porsche LSD is also useless for track purposes, if you feel you will need an LSD, GT Gears is the perfect place to have a custom one built for your Porsche and will last a lot longer.

The other option I would buy, but not recommend to others, is PDK. It is really good, not perfect, but really good. It is a personal choice, and I'll take mine with a PDK or DCT

Frankly, in couple of years the new models will be so much more compelling, none of the above will matter.
Great info - thanks! Yes, the preference is for a late model that will be a practical DD for a while.
Re: the interchangeability... I don't suppose the 911 multi-link rear suspension can be retrofit into a Cayman S, can it... (?)
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      12-02-2014, 12:15 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by vantagesc View Post
Well, Porsche uses a mid engined design for their fastest race cars
In the 'prototype' class yes, not in production classes. In GT categories they have been very successful against Ferraris, Astons, Fords, Lambos, etc.

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Originally Posted by vantagesc View Post
The Cayman is handicapped by less development and inferior design choices like the strut rest suspension. By contrast, Porsche continues to develop the 911 because that is what they are known for. So it's not at all a fair comparison.
Which is the point we have been making, and yes it is not fair. Regardless, I think that the 911 platform is better for performance and I do hope they continue its development for another 50 years.

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Originally Posted by DVC View Post
Re: the interchangeability... I don't suppose the 911 multi-link rear suspension can be retrofit into a Cayman S, can it... (?)
Anything is possible with enough $$$ But something that will be worth your efforts and money, no.
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      12-02-2014, 05:36 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by FTS View Post
In the 'prototype' class yes, not in production classes. In GT categories they have been very successful against Ferraris, Astons, Fords, Lambos, etc.
Yes, but these are balance of performance classes, meaning the cars are regulated to make for close racing.

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Originally Posted by FTS View Post
Anything is possible with enough $$$ But something that will be worth your efforts and money, no.
The 911 suspension is designed to fit in front of the front of the engine, so it sticks forward. The Cayman flips the transmission and puts the engine in that space. Thus simply grafting the 911 suspension in is more than tricky. Double wishbones, on the other hand, like the CGT, etc...

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FTS, why is the rear-engine 911 a better track car (in theory) than the mid-engine Cayman?
The high polar moment of the 911 rotates more slowly- easier to balance, but slower all else being equal. However all else is not equal- the difference is swamped by the suspension design. The modern 911's rear multi-link is the most sophisticated suspension design in common use, while the Cayman's strut is the least sophisticated. It shows.
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      12-02-2014, 09:13 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Pete_vB View Post
The 911 suspension is designed to fit in front of the front of the engine, so it sticks forward. The Cayman flips the transmission and puts the engine in that space. Thus simply grafting the 911 suspension in is more than tricky. Double wishbones, on the other hand, like the CGT, etc...

The high polar moment of the 911 rotates more slowly- easier to balance, but slower all else being equal. However all else is not equal- the difference is swamped by the suspension design. The modern 911's rear multi-link is the most sophisticated suspension design in common use, while the Cayman's strut is the least sophisticated. It shows.
Do you think it's worth pursuing upgraded rear suspension options for the Cayman, or is money better spent on a 911?
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      12-02-2014, 11:03 AM   #72
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Do you think it's worth pursuing upgraded rear suspension options for the Cayman, or is money better spent on a 911?
911. Cost-performance wise a modified Cayman may well be ahead at the autocross, everywhere else the 911 will take it for practical purposes. And even at the autocross I'd generally rather be driving the 911, particularly if you can stretch to a GT3. There is no good Cayman rear suspension solution that I'm aware of yet, so you'd be rolling your own. Or perhaps waiting for the GT4- it's not clear what that's getting yet, but I'm hoping for raised pickups at the very least.
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      12-02-2014, 04:15 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Pete_vB View Post
911. Cost-performance wise a modified Cayman may well be ahead at the autocross, everywhere else the 911 will take it for practical purposes. And even at the autocross I'd generally rather be driving the 911, particularly if you can stretch to a GT3. There is no good Cayman rear suspension solution that I'm aware of yet, so you'd be rolling your own. Or perhaps waiting for the GT4- it's not clear what that's getting yet, but I'm hoping for raised pickups at the very least.
In terms of suspension and drivetrain parts, can a properly optioned base 911 be reasonably modded to match the grip/balance/traction of a GT3?
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      12-02-2014, 05:36 PM   #74
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For the suspension, I think so or at least you could get pretty close, apart from the widebody and rear wheel steering (991 models), which could get pretty expensive to convert. This link may be helpful:
http://www.elephantracing.com/tool-b...n-overview.htm

But this is kind of like my predicament with the 135i. Having not jumped on the 1M quickly enough, I ended up taking a 135i anyway thinking that I'd never drive the car hard enough for it to matter. I ended up spending $4k in parts + labor for the majority of the M3 arms/wishbones, bushings, and BMW Performance Suspension. I still don't have the rear camber links, wheel/tire package, strut tower brace, or steering rack, which would cost thousands more to fit.

So oddly enough, I think it's a better value to buy the GT3 assuming the 911 you want is fairly new, but of course the used values are much more reasonable on standard 911s and they make better daily drivers as well. So I'd probably rather spend the money on a GT3 or only lightly modify a standard 911. Full conversion is too costly.

Once you start looking into the drivetrain, it makes even more sense to get a GT3 from the start.

Last edited by vantagesc; 12-02-2014 at 05:43 PM..
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      12-02-2014, 06:53 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DVC View Post
In terms of suspension and drivetrain parts, can a properly optioned base 911 be reasonably modded to match the grip/balance/traction of a GT3?
I wouldn't make sense to try to duplicate a GT3, far better and cheaper to simply buy a GT3. However parts interchangability does offer interesting options. The GT3 Cup suspension parts car be fit to street cars and are even more aggressive. Used 996 Turbos are cheap, bulletproof, can make huge power and drop serious weight with 2wd conversions.

You can make nearly anything fit, though you may well be better off simply buying a used GT3 Cup car or RSR. The street car parts can be found here: https://www.stuttcars.com/technical/pet/

It all depends on your goals. And the depth of your pockets.
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      12-09-2014, 01:43 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete_vB View Post
I own a 1M, have plenty of seat time in quick Caymans but don't particularly love them, and have a deposit down on a GT4 (but I'm not sure I'll take it). I'd probably have gotten a new GT3 if it had been available with a manual.
Thoughts about the 911 GTS ? Porsche seems to (try to) 'pigeon hole' it as the daily driver GT3.


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      12-09-2014, 05:06 PM   #77
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Thoughts about the 911 GTS ? Porsche seems to (try to) 'pigeon hole' it as the daily driver GT3.
991 GT3s can be daily driven just fine.

The GTS models (whether 911, Cayman, or Boxster) are basically option packages. No doubt they represent good value if you like what's included, but I think Porsche's marketing is a bit of a stretch. For example, on the GTS models, you get as standard a number of things that are options on the regular S models, plus some special (mostly aesthetic) bits.
  • On the 911 GTS, you get the powerkit (+30hp, expensive option), Turbo S wheels, sports exhaust, some aero bits, alcantara, sport chrono, Xenons, PTV (I think?), etc. The main thing you cannot get on the standard S model with only rear wheel drive is the widebody (but it does come standard 4S models).
  • Similarly, on the Cayman / Boxster GTS, you get as standard a few more horsepower (only 10hp, but unlike with the 911, not an option on the Cayman S), PASM, sports exhaust, sport chrono package, Carrera S wheels, xenons, center radiator (not an option on the S), and alcantara, etc.

Those are the main highlights, but there are some smaller items that I likely missed. So yes, you do get a few things that aren't available on the standard S model, but in terms of how the car drives, you can achieve more or less the same thing as a GTS with an appropriately optioned S. But the S will cost more and then you are still missing some of the GTS exclusive bits.

Last edited by vantagesc; 12-09-2014 at 05:30 PM..
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      12-11-2014, 11:37 PM   #78
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Id still pick the M2. Im all about every day practicality and usability these days. Plus the M2 will be one beautiful machine!
^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^
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      12-12-2014, 08:42 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by vantagesc View Post
...On the 911 GTS, you get the powerkit (+30hp, expensive option), Turbo S wheels, sports exhaust, some aero bits, alcantara, sport chrono, Xenons, PTV (I think?), etc. The main thing you cannot get on the standard S model with only rear wheel drive is the widebody (but it does come standard 4S models)...
Does the wide body kit have a wider track as well? If so, that seems like a worthwhile performance element in favor of the GTS, in addition to the aesthetics...
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      12-12-2014, 04:59 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
Thoughts about the 911 GTS ? Porsche seems to (try to) 'pigeon hole' it as the daily driver GT3.
The GTS is a "hot" version of a regular Carrera. And the regular Carrera is the better car for 'most' drivers- more comfortable and practical than a GT3 and more than quick enough. For a pure US street car all new 911s are arguably on the fast side to really be able to get stuck in and enjoy on a back-road, so in that roll the value of the GT3's extra poke is questionable.

If you're not 'most drivers', on the other hand, the GT3 is a far more special machine than the Carrera. Fully redone suspension including new uprights, geometry, rear wheel steering which gives it unmatched agility and stability, bespoke tires tuned for the car, ballistic powerband with a soundtrack to match, etc. On the track or the autocross the GT3 is on another level.

The GT3 as an experience is a whole different beast, and the market treats it as such. Carrera S depreciation has been over 2x the GT3s, and this was true even before the GT3 stopped coming in a manual.

On the other hand the GTS offers a combo of practicality, speed an comfort that many drivers are looking for, but at a very high cost of ownership. It may be remembered as one of the last great manual 911s, but it will likely always play second fiddle to the 997 GT3 or the 50th anniversary edition. If you're looking for a GT car and are OK with the cost of ownership (likely far higher than a GT3) it's one of the best around. Personally, however, I find GT cars never inspire me as much as sports cars, and the GTS lacks enough of the GT3's DNA to get my heart racing as I'd use the car.

Porsche doesn't make a bad car, the issue is finding the one that best matches how you'll use it. Porsche prices its cars as if faster is better, but the truth is that for most of us it's not. It would take a very specific customer for the GTS to be their ideal match.
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      12-12-2014, 10:02 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by Pete_vB View Post
...the GTS offers a combo of practicality, speed an comfort that many drivers are looking for, but at a very high cost of ownership... If you're looking for a GT car and are OK with the cost of ownership (likely far higher than a GT3) it's one of the best around...It would take a very specific customer for the GTS to be their ideal match.
I must admit you lost me on this one... I get that the GT3 is a very special car (I'd certainly have one if I could afford it!), and that the GTS is a slightly hotter Carrera. But I don't understand why you advise that it has a cost of ownership far higher than a GT3. The GT3s cost substantially more - are you factoring in depreciation maybe?
In my case, I would only be able to buy used; I did a quick search online and found some 2011-2012 models of both cars on sale with roughly the same miles, and the GT3s run about $50k more. Am I missing something?
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      12-12-2014, 10:45 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DVC View Post
I must admit you lost me on this one... I get that the GT3 is a very special car (I'd certainly have one if I could afford it!), and that the GTS is a slightly hotter Carrera. But I don't understand why you advise that it has a cost of ownership far higher than a GT3. The GT3s cost substantially more - are you factoring in depreciation maybe?
In my case, I would only be able to buy used; I did a quick search online and found some 2011-2012 models of both cars on sale with roughly the same miles, and the GT3s run about $50k more. Am I missing something?
I am referring to depreciation, and responding to the new 991 GTS as posted in the video.

New GTS cost of ownership has in the past been quite high due to steep depreciation vs the GT3, though if you time a used buy right it could work in your favor. You'll need to look carefully, however, even counting cost of money. The 997 GT3 may have stopped falling; the GTS has not.
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      12-12-2014, 11:28 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Pete_vB View Post
I am referring to depreciation, and responding to the new 991 GTS as posted in the video.

New GTS cost of ownership has in the past been quite high due to steep depreciation vs the GT3, though if you time a used buy right it could work in your favor. You'll need to look carefully, however, even counting cost of money. The 997 GT3 may have stopped falling; the GTS has not.
I see... so the 2012 GTS cars I'm seeing for sale are actually 997s then, I take it.
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      12-12-2014, 11:34 PM   #84
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To give an example to what Pete is mentioning: I bought my base 997.2 GT3 in 2010 for $105K at 2K mi. The last offer I had on it after putting 36K additional miles (3-4K track miles) was $92K at the beginning of 2014. 997.2 GT3 RS still has an asking price of over $130K, RS 4.0 is beyond $250K and some close to $350K (MSRP was $180K originally). I don't even know where GT2 RS sits, but it is probably beyond its original MSRP as well. Good to excellent 996 GT3s still command over $50K, its original MSRP 15 years ago I believe was around $95K.

The GT3 variants and RS variants of 911s almost never diminish in value, and the luckiest buyers are the 2nd and 3rd owners IMO. However, I do not believe this will hold true for the 991 GT3, we'll see.
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      12-13-2014, 04:48 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by FTS View Post
To give an example to what Pete is mentioning: I bought my base 997.2 GT3 in 2010 for $105K at 2K mi. The last offer I had on it after putting 36K additional miles (3-4K track miles) was $92K at the beginning of 2014. 997.2 GT3 RS still has an asking price of over $130K, RS 4.0 is beyond $250K and some close to $350K (MSRP was $180K originally). I don't even know where GT2 RS sits, but it is probably beyond its original MSRP as well. Good to excellent 996 GT3s still command over $50K, its original MSRP 15 years ago I believe was around $95K.

The GT3 variants and RS variants of 911s almost never diminish in value, and the luckiest buyers are the 2nd and 3rd owners IMO. However, I do not believe this will hold true for the 991 GT3, we'll see.
Makes sense, but as great as they are (both from a performance and investment perspective), the GT3 models are certainly out of reach for me at this point.

What are your thoughts between a 2012 (997) GTS versus a 2012 (991) Carrera S in terms of a daily driver / weekend track car? In a few years, they should both be in the same price range as a new M2...
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      12-13-2014, 08:36 PM   #86
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What are your thoughts between a 2012 (997) GTS versus a 2012 (991) Carrera S in terms of a daily driver / weekend track car? In a few years, they should both be in the same price range as a new M2...
I'd recommend the 991S if you have to have a Porsche, but if it is my money, I would go with the M2 probably depending on what it turns out to be But than again, probably our objectives and what we are looking for in a new car are different.
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      12-14-2014, 01:47 PM   #87
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Makes sense, but as great as they are (both from a performance and investment perspective), the GT3 models are certainly out of reach for me at this point.

What are your thoughts between a 2012 (997) GTS versus a 2012 (991) Carrera S in terms of a daily driver / weekend track car? In a few years, they should both be in the same price range as a new M2...
For conversation, thought I'd repeat some stuff from a good source ( who knows what to believe on the internet? )

So supposedly the 991 is a lot more refined then the 997. I believe he said the 993 GT3 was a brutish every day car.
The 991GT3 has handling that is physics defying and has reliability that neither the Lamborghini Aventador or McLaren MC's posses, though the new Ferrari's are built very well, still the GT3 has great reliability as a track car.

Few months back a Youtuber Nick Murray was detailing a litney of issues with a 991, his story was widely repeated. Have no idea of what to make of his reviews.

Was told some smart car guy collector types were not happy with the present Porsches; think it's a quality of materials, size, and overall sensation thing.
The 993's seem to be garnering a following.
Singer industries (Magnus Walker) and their 964 bassed cars, low volume but has really cemented the air-cooled models. Un-crashed air-cooled 911's of any year of course have a big following, how does that effect the water-cooled values, or does it?

Then the news this week about the ECU's on the ZO6's dialing back power has reports of people backing out of deliveries this week.
And few weeks back people were saying the M2 was what everybody was talking about at SEMA.

Anyway, football is depressing so think will head out to the dealership and see if they have any M4's.
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      12-15-2014, 01:58 PM   #88
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I'd recommend the 991S if you have to have a Porsche, but if it is my money, I would go with the M2 probably depending on what it turns out to be But than again, probably our objectives and what we are looking for in a new car are different.
What are your objectives for the M2 (assuming it meets expectations)?
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