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      06-01-2016, 06:51 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nvmaddog
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony235 View Post
Again let me know in what regard a 228 is better than a 235 on certain roads.
You may be waiting a while and listening to crickets.

This is not a case of "whatever is in my garage is better", this is a clear case of certain people trying to justify their purchase.

Did you buy the car because it was a better price? Then good for you, the 228 is a bargain at it's price tag. Do you want better fuel economy? Awesome you are winning that battle too. Like the styling better? To each their own.

Do you want to go faster stock? Straight lines, auto x, canyon runs, maybe an experienced 228 driver can edge out a novice 235 driver here or there. But let's be honest, the better car is the 235, and rightfully so.

If it was not the better car then all of us made a 15k purchase mistake and should have bought the slower car with less adept suspension.
I never said the 228 was a better car. I have a 235 and am happy I do. The only point I was trying to make (unsuccessfully apparently) was for some people it's overkill and a waste of money.

However, that said, if the roads by you are garbage and you're not planning to take advantage of the full capabilities of the 235, the 228 with the standard suspension (not as firm) and 17" wheels with Conti dws06 tires may in fact be more enjoyable to drive around town. Faster? No. More enjoyable depending on what you're looking to accomplish? Sure depending on what you want.

To the guy who asked about bullshit arguments - this forum is actually pretty good as long as you stay out of the threads on lease vs buy arguments.
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      06-01-2016, 07:16 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by nvmaddog View Post
I bet all of those Ferrari drivers really wished they drove Miata's instead, sure would be better to have a few extra inches of head room.
Foolish argument, childish really.

I drove both the M235i and the 228i extensively. I realised that, stock, they both understeer, there was way too much body roll in all axes, and this was affecting the way the power was being put down on the road and the effect of the cars' output. This was much more noticeable in the bigger, heavier 235 but also an issue for the 228. I talked to my tuners; the consensus was that a properly modified 228 is a better car than a stock 235 (note, this was their opinion, albeit one with which I concur) and that for less than the difference in price between the two cars stock, I could mod the 228's suspension and tune the engine to the point at which it would handle much better, have livelier driving dynamics and be quicker than a stock 235 for the kind of driving I do, which involves a lot of canyon roads and stop-start city driving.

Note my use of italics above. These are to emphasize that, as I pointed out before, any judgement on which is the better car is subjective and must be qualified as such instead of presented as incontrovertible fact. If I wanted the car with more muscle, for example if I did more long-distance highway driving, of course the 235 would be more appropriate (but not better), just as it would be on the autobahn. Those of you who are presenting the M235i as indisputably the better car are engaging in a very crude and unhelpful form of debased, saloon-bar "logic" that could not pass muster in a half-decent college environment, let alone among adults.

In four years I will move from the modded 228 to an M2. I hope I will not be so defensive, insecure or ignorant to be on here all day beating my chest about having a "better" car than the 235. It's bad manners and generates more heat than light.
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      06-01-2016, 07:52 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by BarryJI View Post
Foolish argument, childish really.

I drove both the M235i and the 228i extensively. I realised that, stock, they both understeer, there was way too much body roll in all axes, and this was affecting the way the power was being put down on the road and the effect of the cars' output. This was much more noticeable in the bigger, heavier 235 but also an issue for the 228. I talked to my tuners; the consensus was that a properly modified 228 is a better car than a stock 235 (note, this was their opinion, albeit one with which I concur) and that for less than the difference in price between the two cars stock, I could mod the 228's suspension and tune the engine to the point at which it would handle much better, have livelier driving dynamics and be quicker than a stock 235 for the kind of driving I do, which involves a lot of canyon roads and stop-start city driving.

Note my use of italics above. These are to emphasize that, as I pointed out before, any judgement on which is the better car is subjective and must be qualified as such instead of presented as incontrovertible fact. If I wanted the car with more muscle, for example if I did more long-distance highway driving, of course the 235 would be more appropriate (but not better), just as it would be on the autobahn. Those of you who are presenting the M235i as indisputably the better car are engaging in a very crude and unhelpful form of logical argument that could not pass muster in a half-decent college environment, let alone among adults.

In four years I will move from the modded 228 to an M2. I hope I will not be either so defensive, insecure or ignorant to be on here all day beating my chest about having a "better" car than the 235. It's bad manners and sheds more heat than light.
Who is beating their chest? You seem to have a little case of Napoleon complex.

By your same adolescent drivel, one should only buy the cheapest car, then modify it to be better than more expensive cars. Foolish argument, childish really.

Why move to the M2 in 4 years? Your 228 is already the best BMW anyone can buy.

Bad manners? No one insulted anyone nor did they say anything disrespectful, you have a case of butthurtitis, and you really need to check your feelings at the door.
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      06-01-2016, 07:54 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by BEM-S4 View Post
The only point I was trying to make (unsuccessfully apparently) was for some people it's overkill and a waste of money.
^^^This is called common sense, and I can perfectly agree with what you are saying. ^^^
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      06-01-2016, 10:26 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by BarryJI View Post
Foolish argument, childish really.

I drove both the M235i and the 228i extensively. I realised that, stock, they both understeer, there was way too much body roll in all axes, and this was affecting the way the power was being put down on the road and the effect of the cars' output. This was much more noticeable in the bigger, heavier 235 but also an issue for the 228. I talked to my tuners; the consensus was that a properly modified 228 is a better car than a stock 235 (note, this was their opinion, albeit one with which I concur) and that for less than the difference in price between the two cars stock, I could mod the 228's suspension and tune the engine to the point at which it would handle much better, have livelier driving dynamics and be quicker than a stock 235 for the kind of driving I do, which involves a lot of canyon roads and stop-start city driving.

Note my use of italics above. These are to emphasize that, as I pointed out before, any judgement on which is the better car is subjective and must be qualified as such instead of presented as incontrovertible fact. If I wanted the car with more muscle, for example if I did more long-distance highway driving, of course the 235 would be more appropriate (but not better), just as it would be on the autobahn. Those of you who are presenting the M235i as indisputably the better car are engaging in a very crude and unhelpful form of debased, saloon-bar "logic" that could not pass muster in a half-decent college environment, let alone among adults.

In four years I will move from the modded 228 to an M2. I hope I will not be so defensive, insecure or ignorant to be on here all day beating my chest about having a "better" car than the 235. It's bad manners and generates more heat than light.

The only one sounding insecure and offended here is you. Most of the users are here are just stating their opinions, and you guys are more interested in personal attacks rather than trying to argue why 228i can even compete with the m235i other than things like "it feels more fun to me due to the lighter nose (lol) " .

Even the steak vs hamburger argument sucks. Yea of course some people prefer hamburger over steak, but it is of a general consensus that steak is of a higher class regardless. Funny thing is that this isn't even steak vs hamburger, its steak vs steak, and in this case, its like a higher grade steak vs a lower grade cut. Some people would prefer the lower grade one of course It is after-all a matter of personal preference, but theres nothing wrong with me saying i prefer a tenderloin vs a sirloin.

Even the OP feels the the arguments arn't focused on the cars anymore, but the amount of butthurt people (or rather just always the same few people) feel from the fact that others could (GASP) state that the car higher up in the same series is superior to their own. Its not bad manners to state one thing is better than another, its a right to state an opinion, and thats what people like the OP are looking to see when they visit a forum like this.

Its a waste of time if ego can't be left out of the discussion. If anything, do a simple search of 228i vs 235i, and you'll find always the same 2-3 people fighting tooth and nail for the 228i with the same emotional argument rather than the grounded facts. You can't state one car is better than the other without the same people popping up with the same arguments. And everyone someone tries to state a black and white "opinion" it gets personal when people get butthurt.

Personally, i'd NEVER try to convince myself my buy was correct. If i think another car is better. I'll just try to work towards buying it. Its as simple as that. Telling it as it is, the n20 sounds bad, has turbo lag, and vibrates heavily, but is also more fuel efficient, and packs decent punch.

Last edited by BimmerLOVER1234; 06-01-2016 at 11:01 PM..
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      06-01-2016, 11:16 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BimmerLOVER1234 View Post
Most of the users are here are just stating their opinions
Nothing wrong with stating your opinion; just don't present it as indisputable fact. What is it that is so difficult to understand about this distinction? You want to convince me that your car is better than mine? Then make an argument for it, as I did in my last post. If all you can muster is "It's better because it's faster" or "It's better because it's more expensive" or "it's better because it's the 'senior' of the two", it just won't wash. You will need to do better. Make an argument. Convince me. Turbo lag in the stock N20? Ok, that's a start. Vibration? Not in mine.

Quote:
Even the steak vs hamburger argument sucks. Yea of course some people prefer hamburger over steak, but it is of a general consensus that steak is of a higher class regardless.
So your argument is based on an assumption of superiority ("my car is more expensive and higher class") rather than a comparison of their relative merits? Again, you will need to do better.

Quote:
Even the OP feels the the arguments arn't focused on the cars anymore, but the amount of butthurt people (or rather just always the same few people) feel from the fact that others could (GASP) state that the car higher up in the same series is superior to their own. Its not bad manners to state one thing is better than another, its a right to state an opinion, and thats what people like the OP are looking to see when they visit a forum like this.
Nope, not "butthurt" here, nor involving my ego in this. Simply challenging you to justify your lazy argument that one car is better than the other because it's more expensive, faster or higher up the 2-Series food chain. These "arguments", presented as facts, not opinions, allow for no actual debate; they simply involve a statement of fact that you are classifying as "opinion'. If it's your opinion, fine; convince me. And qualify it as an opinion and not a fact.

Quote:
Its a waste of time if ego can't be left out of the discussion. If anything, do a simple search of 228i vs 235i, and you'll find always the same 2-3 people fighting tooth and nail for the 228i with the same emotional argument rather than the grounded facts.
Again, no emotion, no ego. Just a challenge to those presenting opinions as facts: think about your convictions, make an argument and if you haven't actually driven both cars then you may not have anything worthwhile to say.
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      06-01-2016, 11:29 PM   #95
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In case you didn't notice, i also drive a 228i, and i've tried really hard to work out it's flaws with bolt-ons and tunes. (Which in the end I've decided can't put this car on par with an m235i.) I've shared more input on the actual car than you have in this thread at least, including its flaws such as turbo lag and vibration, as well as exhaust note. You may want to check back on the earlier posts. To me, this car is more unrefined than some japanese cars i've driven in terms of vibration, and that is UNFORGIVABLE from my perspective at least. same for the 3 series powered for the n20 in my perspective. Not to say is a bad car, i just think the m235i is a better car. i have GIVEN my reasons.

Superiority is part of car owner ship. Several factors :

1. The drive - thats the most improtant for most people coming to these forums.
2. The looks - obviously
3. The status - as much as people deny it, cars are status symbols, especially in some countries like mine where our tax alone is more expensive than the price you pay for the whole car. (for that i envy you guys) If the car makes you feel good, isn't that a plus?
4 The price
5. The little day to day quirks - like the god damm vibration on the n20.

Trying to deny that these four factors don't influence buying decisions or desirability of a car is obviusly bs.

If anything, i have driven both cars, and own the one which you are defending. The m235i is the better car clearly from my experience, for reasons I've already explained in earlier posts. I came to this conclusion from owning one and driving both cars. Its funny how you guys just ignore the reasons being provided, when you guys are indeed the ones not providing good arguments other than " you guys should respect our choice, how dare you clearly state the m235i is better than my 228i". If anything, the m235i owners in this thread and others are the ones who are providing actual arguments. Feel free to state your opinions and their reasons, no ones going to chastise you for it.

When all opinions are stated, that is when the thread becomes a useful source of information for forum lurkers and readers.

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      06-01-2016, 11:47 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BimmerLOVER1234 View Post
In case you didn't notice, i also drive a 228i, and i've tried really hard to work out it's flaws with bolt-ons and tunes. (Which in the end I've decided can't put this car on par with an m235i.) I've shared more input on the actual car than you have in this thread at least, including its flaws such as turbo lag and vibration, as well as exhaust note. You may want to check back on the earlier posts. To me, this car is more unrefined than some japanese cars i've driven in terms of vibration, and that is UNFORGIVABLE from my perspective at least. same for the 3 series powered for the n20 in my perspective.

If anything, i have driven both cars, and own the one which you are defending. The m235i is the better car clearly from my experience, for reasons I've already explained in earlier posts. I came to this conclusion from owning one and driving both cars.
Fair enough. Now that's an opinion presented as an opinion and not as an indisputable fact. I respect its validity and acknowledge your experience. And I agree, the N20 in the 3-Series is a dog; I had one as a loaner once. Horrible.

Quote:
Its funny how you guys just ignore the reasons being provided, when you guys are indeed the ones not providing good arguments other than " you guys should respect our choice, how dare you clearly state the m235i is better than my 228i".
That's not my argument. I'd be embarrassed if it were.

Quote:
If anything, the m235i owners in this thread and others are the ones who are providing actual arguments. Feel free to state your opinions and their reasons, no ones going to chastise you for it.
Well, let's face it, there is a bit of "little brother vs big brother" rivalry going on here, resulting in my being accused of having a "Napoleon complex". They are both great cars; my experience of the 228 has not been anything like as disappointing as yours, and for that I am grateful.
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      06-01-2016, 11:50 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BarryJI View Post
Fair enough. Now that's an opinion presented as an opinion and not as an indisputable fact. I respect its validity and acknowledge your experience. And I agree, the N20 in the 3-Series is a dog; I had one as a loaner once. Horrible.



That's not my argument. I'd be embarrassed if it were.



Well, let's face it, there is a bit of "little brother vs big brother" rivalry going on here, resulting in my being accused of having a "Napoleon complex". They are both great cars; my experience of the 228 has not been anything like as disappointing as yours, and for that I am grateful.
Just wanna get 1 thing straight. i'm not disappointed with the 228i. It drives like a dream. the quirks do bother me though i'd admit and i do crave the straight 6 engine sound.

I just always look for whats next and obviously i want to mentally classify something as "better" before i go for it. too bad i'm the kinda fella that wants more no matter what i have.
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      06-02-2016, 12:00 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by BimmerLOVER1234 View Post
I just always look for whats next and obviously i want to mentally classify something as "better" before i go for it. too bad i'm the kinda fella that wants more no matter what i have.
Well that is exactly why I have set my heart on an M2. For me, asserting baldly that it's a better car and leaving it at that is not helpful in debates like this; it's more helpful to say it's better for me because I want to drive a track-tuned six with a really uncompromising suspension. To me that's an argument that generates light, not heat and it's not a put-down. Ideally I'd like to own a 911 just once in my life but two sets of college fees in the next four years will rule that out. So maybe I can just about afford a Cayman and will then spend too much of my time defending it against people who say that if you're not driving a 911 you are not getting the true Porsche experience. You see the pattern here?
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      06-02-2016, 12:18 AM   #99
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Well, heres the thing, i'm in a pretty similiar situation as you.

I'm planning to get either the cayman, m2 or m4 this year(or maybe audi tt rs). Just that the stakes are ridicilous on my end since an entry level cayman is 300k usd where i live and not to mention an M4 is almost 350k

What i feel here is you should not feel obligated to defend anything! So what if people don't feel that its not the true porsche experience? They are entitled to think so if that is their opinion. Just state your opinion if you have a differing one, and leave it as that. Why should what other people say about your car mean anything to you. No one has charged you with the mission of defending the status of the car you choose to own. Thats the part i don't get here. Why should people not be allowed to say what they think? its a god damm internet forum lol. It a place for people to express their opinions.

The M2 is a good target. Definitely a much better car than either we are arguing about after having tested it. Entirely different animal.

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      06-02-2016, 01:14 AM   #100
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Two totally different cars for two totally different groups of consumers. The 228i is a more practical and cost effective car while the 235i is a more hardcore version of the 228i meant for the enthisuast. The real tradeoff is cost of ownership is much higher than that of the 228i. Long run you will probably spend close to triple the amount for gas, tires, brakes, and motor oil top offs on the 235i than you would on the 228i. In my experience so far, the costs on my 2016 M235i are more than that of my 2015 328i sportline (which I would expect the 228i to be similar in running costs) and my 2013 528i combined (I keep strict tabs on everything). If you take that into consideration many people will choose the 228i over the 235i due to its lowered overall cost of ownership. For those that it running costs is not a factor they are most likely the enthusiast whom wants the raw performance and track ability of an affordable sports coupé. Simply put. If you want a fun and more than capable commuter car, get the 228i. If you plan on modifying a 228i and can afford the offset in costs you are better off just buying a stock 235i and keeping your service warranty. Hope this helps just a little! @Bozman feel free to dm me if you have questions. Cheers
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      06-02-2016, 06:45 AM   #101
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SCANS: M2 VS M235i, 228i, 1M and E30 M3 (Road & Track July 16) http://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1268894
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      06-02-2016, 07:01 AM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tehlopez View Post
Two totally different cars for two totally different groups of consumers. The 228i is a more practical and cost effective car while the 235i is a more hardcore version of the 228i meant for the enthisuast. The real tradeoff is cost of ownership is much higher than that of the 228i. Long run you will probably spend close to triple the amount for gas, tires, brakes, and motor oil top offs on the 235i than you would on the 228i. In my experience so far, the costs on my 2016 M235i are more than that of my 2015 328i sportline (which I would expect the 228i to be similar in running costs) and my 2013 528i combined (I keep strict tabs on everything). If you take that into consideration many people will choose the 228i over the 235i due to its lowered overall cost of ownership. For those that it running costs is not a factor they are most likely the enthusiast whom wants the raw performance and track ability of an affordable sports coupé. Simply put. If you want a fun and more than capable commuter car, get the 228i. If you plan on modifying a 228i and can afford the offset in costs you are better off just buying a stock 235i and keeping your service warranty. Hope this helps just a little! @Bozman feel free to dm me if you have questions. Cheers
p.s.
I've been told by friends that the CPO program comes highly recommended. I personally have yet to use it because of the owners choice program, but I definitely see the benefit if you plan of keeping the car more than two years.
I've owned an N20 car for 3 years and my m235 for 1.5 years now. In my experience the M235i cost of ownership isn't sniffing 3x my N20 experience. Only way I can imagine this is if one is tracked and the other isn't.

And if I was a 228 owner, I'd probably consider myself every bit the enthusiast as 235 owner is...

I do agree that if the plan is to throw a bunch of mod $$'s at the 228, you'd probably be better off just getting the bigger motor to begin with.

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      06-02-2016, 08:08 AM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BimmerLOVER1234 View Post
Its funny how you guys just ignore the reasons being provided, when you guys are indeed the ones not providing good arguments other than " you guys should respect our choice, how dare you clearly state the m235i is better than my 228i". If anything, the m235i owners in this thread and others are the ones who are providing actual arguments.
I thought that was a tad short sighted myself, but what can I tell you, there are a good deal of unenlightened individuals on car forums.
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      06-02-2016, 10:30 AM   #104
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That would be a horrible thought, wouldn't it? And quite obviously out of the question. For that $15k you bought a bigger car, not a better one.
How is the car bigger? Maybe heavier, but not bigger.

It more than makes up for the weight with it's upgraded suspension, brakes, and power train.

Yes, if could have the 228 weight with all the 235 upgrades it would be a better car. But you can't buy one like that.
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      06-02-2016, 10:31 AM   #105
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It's the Internet. There will always be blowhards, ignoramuses and chest-beaters. Luckily there are fewer than usual here and the ones there are, are not that bad.
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      06-02-2016, 10:35 AM   #106
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I was out of this thread, but see so many names changing as the last poster, that my "watch-a-trainwreck" curiosity got the best of me....

The entire premise of "better" is still flawed. There are some objective realities which are susceptible to measurable, demonstrable proof. Car A is faster/slower, lighter/heavier, higher g force/lower g force, costlier/cheaper, noisier/quieter than Car B. However, the concept of "better" is a subjective and flawed human creation to help some make sense of a wide array of objective data. "Better" has zero inherent meaning, other than it reflects the personal filtering and weighting of a variety of data points by an individual. There are as many definitions of what constitutes "better" as there are people, and they are all equally meritorious. The more honest descriptor instead of "better" is "the one I prefer".

Therefore, the 228i is NOT better; the M235i is NOT better; hell, an Alpina B7 is NOT better! Nothing is objectively better than anything, except on the personal subjective basis any individual decides. To make the point in absurd extreme, if I am of eastern European origin and feel loyalty is more important than anything else, a Yugo is "better" than any BMW, if one accepted that premise!

When some folks here trot out their"greater than" signs to inject their subjective calculus on objective reality, that's when the pushback will occur. Those folks are not saying, "IMHO" or "to me", but are attempting to state that "faster=better", for example. False! Faster is better TO YOU, and whether that is the majority or minority is irrelevant. A subjective majority opinion does not magically become objective reality. You like A better than B? Fine. But, that doesn't mean everyone else's subjective assessment is less valid...it's just different, as are all the cars ever made anywhere across all time.

Can we just give up on the nonsense of "better" and get back to exchanging opinions!?

I'm going to try and be done again....
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      06-02-2016, 10:42 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by BEM-S4 View Post
I never said the 228 was a better car. I have a 235 and am happy I do. The only point I was trying to make (unsuccessfully apparently) was for some people it's overkill and a waste of money.

However, that said, if the roads by you are garbage and you're not planning to take advantage of the full capabilities of the 235, the 228 with the standard suspension (not as firm) and 17" wheels with Conti dws06 tires may in fact be more enjoyable to drive around town. Faster? No. More enjoyable depending on what you're looking to accomplish? Sure depending on what you want.

To the guy who asked about bullshit arguments - this forum is actually pretty good as long as you stay out of the threads on lease vs buy arguments.
You did say the 228 was a better car on certain roads than a 235.

Also you just said the 235 could be a waste of money for some people. That was my original point and then peoples ego got hurt thinking I was insulting them because they can't afford a 235 (or choose not to afford it).

The vast majority of people won't take a 228 to its limit either. So that's not an entirely valid point. The 235 in comfort mode and D is just as comfortable to drive as a 228. The tires would be the only thing that might make the 235 less "enjoyable" (aka quiet) to drive, but the difference is minuscule. For those that will end up with aftermarket wheels and tires (I know not everyone) it's not even a factor.

Last edited by Anthony235; 06-02-2016 at 11:03 AM..
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      06-02-2016, 10:52 AM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BEM-S4 View Post
SCANS: M2 VS M235i, 228i, 1M and E30 M3 (Road & Track July 16) http://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1268894
Dang! I gotta go buy this issue!
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      06-02-2016, 10:59 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by BarryJI View Post
In four years I will move from the modded 228 to an M2. I hope I will not be so defensive, insecure or ignorant to be on here all day beating my chest about having a "better" car than the 235. It's bad manners and generates more heat than light.
I would say the M2 is the better car compared to the 235. I just picked up my 235 earlier in the year so it makes no financial sense to get a M2 now. See, it's so easy to admit. You should try it sometime.

I can't think of a reason to get a 235 over a M2 other than cost savings. Unless the M2 in comfort mode is still too much for some people (not me). I have yet to experience it in comfort mode.
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      06-02-2016, 11:02 AM   #110
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Thanks for the entertainment! I'll bow out now.

I didn't mean to hurt anyone's feelings. I genuinely mean that. Buy the car you want and go have fun with it, but don't have false expectations or let people create them for you.
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