[Outlaw 06]

Originally Posted by 991GT3

What does that even mean? So what if most drivers couldn't push it to its limit on a track? The car would have been faster(and IMO better)with shorter gearing and PDK.

Almost anyone can take a car’s engine to its limits on a straightaway. The difference between skilled drivers (the 0.0001%) and unskilled drivers (the 99.9999%) is the skilled driver’s ability to drive a car at the limit under braking, corner entry, midcorner and accelerating out of a corner. In other words, the 99.9999% would get far better results spending money on professional high-performance driving instruction and/or racing instruction they can use, rather than horsepower they can’t use. Of course, drivers must also know their limitations, and I know that I’ll run of of talent before running out of 385 horsepower…

[DieGrüneHölle]

Originally Posted by 991GT3

The car would have been faster(and IMO better)with shorter gearing and PDK.

991.1 GT3 would be better with a manual.

If rumored manual option for 991.2 GT3 is true, 991.1 GT3 prices will take a big hit.

[atxgt3]

Originally Posted by Blipit_

991.1 GT3 would be better with a manual.

If rumored manual option for 991.2 GT3 is true, 991.1 GT3 prices will take a big hit.

Have you driven a GT3? I have one and I would never want one with a manual. It revs too fast, I'd never be able to drive it properly. I love manuals but not for manic high revving cars like this. You have to shift up and down too frequently.

[991GT3]

Originally Posted by Outlaw 06

Almost anyone can take a car’s engine to its limits on a straightaway. The difference between skilled drivers (the 0.0001%) and unskilled drivers (the 99.9999%) is the skilled driver’s ability to drive a car at the limit under braking, corner entry, midcorner and accelerating out of a corner. In other words, the 99.9999% would get far better results spending money on professional high-performance driving instruction and/or racing instruction they can use, rather than horsepower they can’t use. Of course, drivers must also know their limitations, and I know that I’ll run of of talent before running out of 385 horsepower…

So what? Your comment is pretty meaningless because most drivers don't track their cars and straight line acceleration is still a major factor.

[991GT3]

Originally Posted by Blipit_

991.1 GT3 would be better with a manual.

If rumored manual option for 991.2 GT3 is true, 991.1 GT3 prices will take a big hit.

I strongly disagree. A manual will slow the car down regardless of who is driving.
I don't get the love of a manual. They're tedious.

[Z K]

Originally Posted by 991GT3

I strongly disagree. A manual will slow the car down regardless of who is driving.
I don't get the love of a manual. They're tedious.

People don't buy manuals anymore because they're faster. It is for the experience of driving the car.

Rowing the gears and experiencing the connection is part of the experience of enjoying a drive, not just getting fast numbers. You know you're doing right or wrong and it's not a machine doing the work for you.

[atxgt3]

Originally Posted by Z K

People don't buy manuals anymore because they're faster. It is for the experience of driving the car.

Rowing the gears and experiencing the connection is part of the experience of enjoying a drive, not just getting fast numbers. You know you're doing right or wrong and it's not a machine doing the work for you.

My 997TT was a 6 speed, and I always felt like I could never use the car to its full potential. It was fun, but frustrating losing boost between gears. On my GT3 I'm sure I would feel the same way, struggling to keep it in the power band with a manual. Personally I feel like using the paddles and shifting the PDK manually is just as fun and rewarding (albeit in a different way) as a manual transmission. If you can't have fun driving a GT3 regardless of transmission, you're doing something wrong.

[991GT3]

Originally Posted by Z K

People don't buy manuals anymore because they're faster. It is for the experience of driving the car.

Rowing the gears and experiencing the connection is part of the experience of enjoying a drive, not just getting fast numbers. You know you're doing right or wrong and it's not a machine doing the work for you.

They are tedious, a distraction, and slower. With all the power cars have these days its better to have more focus on the road.
Did you ever wonder why Ferrari, Lamborghini, and Porsche don't have manuals on their supercars?
If you love manuals, more power to you but I find the "more connected" argument weak.

[Red Bread]

Uh, they don't sell them because they're small manufacturers who don't have the money to certify two transmissions.

Recent sales of 911R's for over a million bucks would say that not offering a manual GT3 might have been a mistake.

Look at prices for manual F430's, 575's and 599's. Frequently 150% to 300% the price of two pedal versions.

[StealYourFace]

Anyone suggesting a car that runs mid 12s 1/4 mile (obviously not the point of this car) and says it is under powered needs to drive a first gen miata around a race track to get their sense of what fast is back in check.

[Z K]

Originally Posted by 991GT3

They are tedious, a distraction, and slower. With all the power cars have these days its better to have more focus on the road.
Did you ever wonder why Ferrari, Lamborghini, and Porsche don't have manuals on their supercars?
If you love manuals, more power to you but I find the "more connected" argument weak.

If it's all about precision and speed, you can argue that you'd want a digital quartz watch because that is the most precise time piece and keeps time excellently. But most high end watches are mechanical. Enthusiasts appreciate the engineering and the the craftsmanship of a old fashioned mechanical movement even if it is less precise and more prone to error.

Even among super cars, the manual versions of preowned Ferrari and Lamborghini sell for much higher prices on the used market than the 2 pedal versions. The F430 maintains a premium as the last manual transmission Ferrari and collectors are snapping them up quickly.

The rumors are probably true that Porsche will bring back the GT3 in manual after mass complaints from car enthusiasts that want such a car.

If you're happy clicking buttons and having your car do the work for you, that's great. I want to do my own work and truly know how to drive my own car - not have it drive for me.

[to_riffic]

I think there is more focus on the road with a 6spd than a PDK, or any automatic for that part. Having to work the gears to get going instead of looking at your phone and letting the car do its thing isn't better focus.

I find rowing my gears and working for the power and working to properly rev match makes for more involvement and precision than clicking a pair of paddles....

[Bbb34]

Originally Posted by atxgt3

My 997TT was a 6 speed, and I always felt like I could never use the car to its full potential. It was fun, but frustrating losing boost between gears. On my GT3 I'm sure I would feel the same way, struggling to keep it in the power band with a manual.

Of course paddles can be fun, no disputing that, but those who like driving manual cars don't like it for reasons you're stating. I get the need for speed and to get the maximum out of the car. To most people, fast is great, but fractions of the second don't matter that much. Now, if you're you're making the living in crossing the line first, then sure, paddle sifters will probably help, but most of us don't.

Originally Posted by 991GT3

They are tedious, a distraction, and slower. With all the power cars have these days its better to have more focus on the road.
Did you ever wonder why Ferrari, Lamborghini, and Porsche don't have manuals on their supercars?

Price argument for older manuals others have put forward aside. Did you ever wonder why Porsche decided to put manual in GT4 ? Clearly there's no one universal solution for all enthusiasts out there. Same as previous poster I'm quoting, I get your arguments, but you have to keep an open mind that some actually might enjoy manuals, rare as they might be these days. Paddle sifters on average cars range from pure s... to artificial shifting feeling. I'm sure they are great on supercars, and GT3, not arguing that. Now, as for your GT3, you simply don't know, because you didn't get to try it, who knows, maybe, just maybe you would've preferred and picked manual if you had a chance to compare.

Anyway, back on the topic. Maybe GT4 could be faster, but hard to argue this is great car, and, for my taste at least, I'm trying to see how it could be any prettier.

[DieGrüneHölle]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Recent sales of 911R's for over a million bucks would say that not offering a manual GT3 might have been a mistake.

Yup. Exactly why the 991.2 GT3 with manual option is going to hit 991.1 values. Go to the Porsche forums, they are begging for a manual option.

Originally Posted by Z K

The rumors are probably true that Porsche will bring back the GT3 in manual after mass complaints from car enthusiasts that want such a car.

Porsche developed an all new 6-speed manual for the 911 R. You better believe they didn't spend all that R&D money just to use it in one limited model. It is going to trickle down to other cars. Auto industry media is reporting 991.2 GT3 will be the next in line to receive it.

[atxgt3]

Originally Posted by Bbb34

Of course paddles can be fun, no disputing that, but those who like driving manual cars don't like it for reasons you're stating. I get the need for speed and to get the maximum out of the car. To most people, fast is great, but fractions of the second don't matter that much. Now, if you're you're making the living in crossing the line first, then sure, paddle sifters will probably help, but most of us don't.

I really like driving both, and I think both have their pros and cons. I don't care about fractions of a second, and I don't track my cars at all. It's not so much about that. Driving a manual is very involving, and I like that. But shifting paddles manually is involving in its own right, and the thing I get from driving a car with a dual clutch is the adrenaline rush from being able to go all out and the most out of the car. Whenever I drive the same car with an dual clutch VS a manual I just feel like the manual car feels slower in every way, and that just bugs me. I get some extra enjoyment out of shifting, but I lose enjoyment in other areas.

I've driven both extensively, and I definitely think for insanely fast cars a dual clutch is the way to go. For a slower car that doesn't have that much potential I'd get manual every time.

[W///]

Originally Posted by Outlaw 06

Almost anyone can take a car’s engine to its limits on a straightaway. The difference between skilled drivers (the 0.0001%) and unskilled drivers (the 99.9999%) is the skilled driver’s ability to drive a car at the limit under braking, corner entry, midcorner and accelerating out of a corner. In other words, the 99.9999% would get far better results spending money on professional high-performance driving instruction and/or racing instruction they can use, rather than horsepower they can’t use. Of course, drivers must also know their limitations, and I know that I’ll run of of talent before running out of 385 horsepower…

Yes and no. I'll be the first to admit that I can't even come close to seeing the GT4's limits. They are that high.

However, you cannot say that straight line performance is not entertaining in its own way. It's not like you can pull 1.2G every off-ramp you get off. So in terms of everyday driving, I do think the GT4 could use either a bit more power or shorter ratios.

Good news though. There's power left on the table from the 9A1 in the GT4.

P.S. None of this would be enough for me to not get a GT4. It's a truly brilliant car out of the box.

Originally Posted by 991GT3

They are tedious, a distraction, and slower. With all the power cars have these days its better to have more focus on the road.
Did you ever wonder why Ferrari, Lamborghini, and Porsche don't have manuals on their supercars?
If you love manuals, more power to you but I find the "more connected" argument weak.

On the track? Absolutely.
On the road? I completely disagree. Hell, these cars have hill assist, auto rev match and a softer clutch pedal than the 80/90s 911's I've tried. So I don't see how they are that tedious.

Supercars are meant to do 1 thing. Go as fast as humanly possible. On a GT3, I can understand why you'd want PDK. But you can also see that there's obviously a market for an MT with that engine... 911R.

I'd pick the 911R over a 991 GT3 and even RS all day everyday (not that I can afford any of them )

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Uh, they don't sell them because they're small manufacturers who don't have the money to certify two transmissions.

Recent sales of 911R's for over a million bucks would say that not offering a manual GT3 might have been a mistake.

Look at prices for manual F430's, 575's and 599's. Frequently 150% to 300% the price of two pedal versions.

Precisely. No reason a slower and more tedious car should go for that much right?

[991GT3]

Originally Posted by Z K

If it's all about precision and speed, you can argue that you'd want a digital quartz watch because that is the most precise time piece and keeps time excellently. But most high end watches are mechanical. Enthusiasts appreciate the engineering and the the craftsmanship of a old fashioned mechanical movement even if it is less precise and more prone to error.

Even among super cars, the manual versions of preowned Ferrari and Lamborghini sell for much higher prices on the used market than the 2 pedal versions. The F430 maintains a premium as the last manual transmission Ferrari and collectors are snapping them up quickly.

The rumors are probably true that Porsche will bring back the GT3 in manual after mass complaints from car enthusiasts that want such a car.

If you're happy clicking buttons and having your car do the work for you, that's great. I want to do my own work and truly know how to drive my own car - not have it drive for me.

The ever tiresome "the car drives itself" argument. Do honestly believe that?
If so, you better go tell F1 drivers they're not really driving their vehicles.
I suppose you want ABS gone too?

[to_riffic]

If Porsche didn't make a PDK version of the GT3 or GT3 RS we really wouldn't be having this discussion. It would have been kept as a "purist", but the idea that allowing a PDK to extract every ounce of performance out of the car allows others, I think, allows novices to actually jump into a Porsche and drive it with no experience.

I could be entirely wrong here, but if the GT3/RS didn't come with PDK, would you have gotten it?

[991GT3]

Originally Posted by Bbb34

Price argument for older manuals others have put forward aside. Did you ever wonder why Porsche decided to put manual in GT4 ? Clearly there's no one universal solution for all enthusiasts out there. Same as previous poster I'm quoting, I get your arguments, but you have to keep an open mind that some actually might enjoy manuals, rare as they might be these days. Paddle sifters on average cars range from pure s... to artificial shifting feeling. I'm sure they are great on supercars, and GT3, not arguing that. Now, as for your GT3, you simply don't know, because you didn't get to try it, who knows, maybe, just maybe you would've preferred and picked manual if you had a chance to compare.

Anyway, back on the topic. Maybe GT4 could be faster, but hard to argue this is great car, and, for my taste at least, I'm trying to see how it could be any prettier.

I have no problem with people wanting manuals. It's their choice but I find the arguments unpersuasive and the idea that cars "drive themselves" or are nothing but "video games" when they use paddles, ridiculous.
I owned a GT4 and it was nice. The manual was great as far as manuals go but IMO it would have been better with PDK (or at least a PDK option). It also needed shorter gearing.
Cars are getting too powerful and sophisticated to have such antiquated technology mesh well with the overall car. Hence Ferrari and Lambo not using them.
And this idea that manuals command a premium is all supply and demand based. They don't make them so they're expensive to get. If they made them they'd sit on their lots. I remember a few years back almost biting on a heavily discounted V10 R8 with a gated manual.

[991GT3]

Originally Posted by ra2fanatic

If Porsche didn't make a PDK version of the GT3 or GT3 RS we really wouldn't be having this discussion. It would have been kept as a "purist", but the idea that allowing a PDK to extract every ounce of performance out of the car allows others, I think, allows novices to actually jump into a Porsche and drive it with no experience.

I could be entirely wrong here, but if the GT3/RS didn't come with PDK, would you have gotten it?

Yes I would have because I have always wanted a GT3. I bought a GT4 knowing full well it was a manual. I liked it but I would have preferred PDK.
As far as allowing the hoi polloi to access cars they otherwise wouldn't I find a tad off putting and arrogant. A manual isn't that difficult to master and people of all driving abilities have been using them much longer than dual clutch has been around.

[to_riffic]

Originally Posted by 991GT3

Yes I would have because I have always wanted a GT3. I bought a GT4 knowing full well it was a manual. I liked it but I would have preferred PDK.
As far as allowing the hoi polloi to access cars they otherwise wouldn't I find a tad off putting and arrogant. A manual isn't that difficult to master and people of all driving abilities have been using them much longer than dual clutch has been around.

I don't see that as off putting or arrogant, but I digress, we are all open to our own opinions.

I can ask many at my work if they know how to drive a manual and 95% of them have never driven or learned to drive a manual. And with congestion here in LA, it's an afterthought for most. No one would want to drive a heavy clutch through traffic, and that's why I say it gives novices easier access to these cars.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by 991GT3

The ever tiresome "the car drives itself" argument. Do honestly believe that?
If so, you better go tell F1 drivers they're not really driving their vehicles.
I suppose you want ABS gone too?

Using that argument, will you be running 15" wheels and removing the fenders and roof from your car, Mr. Hamilton?