m235i - xDrive or RWD?

crbalch · 10-11-2015, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BMW335iOn18s

Quote:

Originally Posted by shark715

Quote:

Originally Posted by BMW335iOn18s

When the front wheels have to put the power down too, the feedback is masked by the fact that you now have the front wheels accelerating and steering as opposed to just steering. You will feel absolutely nothing through the wheel. I have many years of experience of driving e90/e92/f30 loaners (all xdrive) and I can tell you that they drive nothing like their rwd counterparts. They ride taller, less refined, and all have no feedback. This includes the e9x generation. My old m sport 335i rwd was in a different league compared to the loaners I had. Oh and this debate goes back to the e46 days. I had a 330ci at the same time my friend had a 330xi. We used to trade cars all the time...even he agreed my car was way sportier had a lot more feel, and he demonstrated this by stopping both cars. Then turning the steering wheel all the way to the right or left. Then, accelerating. My 330ci steering rack would straighten out, where as the 330xi would remain fully locked. Xdrive cars are very very different.

Excuse me for my elitist tone, but Xdrive has always been and will always be a byproduct of American ideology that you need to have something every day even if you only use it once. In most urban and suburban areas, streets are salted and plowed. There is absolutely no need for an awd car (though it may be nice). It's kind of like how people buy cars that they use only several times a year to tow with. It's just a huge waste to sacrifice something every day of the year for the 1 or 2 days you might need it. How did people survive all these years without AWD? It's not that awd is bad, but it's not the purists or enthusiasts choice when buying a BMW. It's there for the paranoid people who don't know any better. If you're buying an m235i because you want the classic BMW driving qualities, you're straying from them by getting Xdrive. Plain and simple.

The reason I'm so annoyed with Xdrive is because other than in the southern states, dealers only stock Xdrive cars. No matter whether it's a 2,3,4,5,6,7 series, rwd is nearly a thing of the past. So if I want to test drive a car before I buy it, it's almost impossible because enthusiasts are 0.001% of the buying public. It's the same with manual transmissions. Years ago, they used to pop up here and there, but not they're pretty much order only. If you do find one, it's probably an ordered car that the potential buyer ended up backing out of. It's really tough to find a proper non-M BMW on the dealer lots. I wish it wasn't the case. After the manuals disappear, rwd will probably be next.

Currently owning a Porsche 996 and SLK55, as well as a Lotus Elise in the past, hopefully I pass the smell test for being an enthusiast even though my opinions don't quite align with yours.

Think about how often and under what conditions torque that is material enough to change the feel of the car is sent to the front axle on a 2 series xdrive, and you will begin to understand my test drive observations. Believe me, I'm well aware of all the xdrive debates of the past, but I'm not at all sure how that is relevant to this discussion. Go drive an xdrive 2 series and you might be as surprised as I was. And if you are not, that's cool too as I fully subscribe to "to each his own".

One of your comments I strongly disagree with is that "there is no need for a AWD car". Perhaps that's the case for you, but there are plenty of us who will in fact have a recurring predictable need for AWD, even when we have dedicated winter tires.

I'm also one of those enthusiasts who will probably never again purchase a manual shift car. Can't believe I'm saying this (and I have plenty of friends who will ridicule me, so I don't need more of it), but after driving the Porsche dual clutch and the 8 speed slushbox in the 2 series, I'm a believer. I'm loving the snappy shifts in manual mode, feel that I can control the car just as well as with a stick, the faster acceleration, and have no complaints about the better gas mileage.

Times they are a changin....

I guess I can't appreciate autos and DCTs on the same level because unfortunately I don't have any track experience yet. However, I will say that when I'm commuting every morning or going for a spirited drive on some back roads, there's nothing like the sensory experience of engaging the clutch precisely and engaging the notchy shift lever simultaneously. This might sound cheesy but it's almost like having a dance partner to lead or telling someone "step to the right and turn around." Even if I'm far from the fastest to 60 or around a track, I'm having more fun going slowly about my commute than I would be with the automatic. To summarize: to have fun in an automatic sports car, you have to driving fast - to have fun in a manual car, you could be stuck in traffic. Call me crazy but I actually ENJOY driving stick. Even in traffic. Even those 1-2 shifts at low speed in parking lots. I enjoy it 100% of the time.

Never heard anyone say driving a stick in traffic is more enjoyable than auto, but to each his own I suppose. That's the precise reason I'm out of the 6spd...

Sportstick · 10-11-2015, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crbalch

Never heard anyone say driving a stick in traffic is more enjoyable than auto, but to each his own I suppose. That's the precise reason I'm out of the 6spd...

A matter of degree, of course....bumper-to-bumper crawling without much/any throttle, not so much. But, for those of us who don't usually encounter that, flowing traffic makes the game that much more challenging and entertaining to negotiate!

midwest 340xi 6sp · 10-11-2015, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BMW335iOn18s

I guess I can't appreciate autos and DCTs on the same level because unfortunately I don't have any track experience yet. However, I will say that when I'm commuting every morning or going for a spirited drive on some back roads, there's nothing like the sensory experience of engaging the clutch precisely and engaging the notchy shift lever simultaneously. This might sound cheesy but it's almost like having a dance partner to lead or telling someone "step to the right and turn around." Even if I'm far from the fastest to 60 or around a track, I'm having more fun going slowly about my commute than I would be with the automatic. To summarize: to have fun in an automatic sports car, you have to driving fast - to have fun in a manual car, you could be stuck in traffic. Call me crazy but I actually ENJOY driving stick. Even in traffic. Even those 1-2 shifts at low speed in parking lots. I enjoy it 100% of the time.

And for people like you, I hope they continue to offer transmission choices. For people like me, drivetrain choices like XD...

And man, I'd relish the 3 pedal in a Bimmer while you can...

shark715 · 10-13-2015, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BMW335iOn18s

Call me crazy but I actually ENJOY driving stick.

Believe me, I completely "get" your point of view. Our Carerra has the optional sport shifter with extremely short throws, and between that and the sweet engine sound of the sport exhaust system (which I modified so it's always in "loud" mode unless defeated by the dash switch) it never ceases to put a smile on my face when I run it through the gears, especially at higher revs. But if I were to buy the same car again today, I really would seriously consider their PDK dual clutch trans, it's really that good. I know it sounds like a horrible thing to do to a Porsche :-), but what blows my mind is how many cars the dealers have in stock with PDK's. It's heresy, like when Porsche first announced they were going to build an SUV :-)

brennok · 11-11-2015, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Transfer

To me, the AWD is just as much or more about the rain and constantly wet roads here in Seattle as it is about the possibility of snow. Imagine your road surface is wet 70% of the year. AWD makes a lot of sense and keeps me from just spinning tires all the time if I want to get a bit frisky.

This is the big reason I wish I could at least test drive the Xdrive to see if I like it over the RWD in the rain here. Unfortunately none of the local dealers ever get any in. Since everything I am considering is AWD, I would love to at least compare them to see.

Jbe0324 · 11-12-2015, 01:34 AM

I live in Canada. Xdrive is essential or you are not going anywhere in heavy snow or slippery thick ass ice. I worked at a BMW dealership. We don't order M cars and RWD cars "special order"now. 95 % of bimmers sold are Xdrive here.

Merc for hire · 11-12-2015, 02:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jbe0324

I live in Canada. Xdrive is essential or you are not going anywhere in heavy snow or slippery thick ass ice. I worked at a BMW dealership. We don't order M cars and RWD cars "special order"now. 95 % of bimmers sold are Xdrive here.

Speak for yourself. Every time I see a XDrive 2 or 4 series on the road I puke a little in my mouth and feel sorry for the poor fool who drives the mutant of a BMW
I ordered my car RWD and 6 speed even though it's actually more expensive than these discount XDrive models sitting in the dealership.

BMW Canada is trying to force XDrive upon us by eliminating rwd models all together.

I survived past 3 years of snow in a 2000 323ci RWD 5 speed with discount winter tires. I don't need AWD and never will.

Sportstick · 11-12-2015, 05:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jbe0324

I live in Canada. Xdrive is essential or you are not going anywhere in heavy snow or slippery thick ass ice. I worked at a BMW dealership. We don't order M cars and RWD cars "special order"now. 95 % of bimmers sold are Xdrive here.

I've been in, and a neighbor to, Ontario, living in Buffalo and now near Detroit. Your claim, respectfully, is simply not true. With winter tires and rwd, I've gone everywhere I need for decades. Also, once on a continuous surface of ice, the measurement of thickness underneath is not relevant.

Your dealership is responding to satisfying the "conventional wisdom" among many/most buyers who have bought in to the AWD story, with some/many going on to dismiss the need for proper winter tires, demonstrating the lack of truly understanding the physics of winter driving. Some of your buyers likely believe AWD somehow helps with braking and turning too. We see folks like that standing beside ditches, waiting for a tow truck for their SUV.

RWD with winter tires> AWD with all seasons, which various threads have demonstrated for years.

Also, XDrive vehicles carry higher margins.

Zooks527 · 11-12-2015, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sportstick

Some of your buyers likely believe AWD somehow helps with braking and turning too. We see folks like that standing beside ditches, waiting for a tow truck for their SUV.

You're correct that it does nothing for braking. You are, however, incorrect about turning.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sportstick

RWD with winter tires> AWD with all seasons, which various threads have demonstrated for years.

True. However, AWD with winter tires kicks serious ass over RWD with winter tires.

Sportstick · 11-12-2015, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zooks527

You're correct that it does nothing for braking. You are, however, incorrect about turning.

Please note that I used the conjunctive "and", not the disjunctive "or". The single most critical capability for saving life, limb, and vehicle in winter driving is being able to avoid the unexpected occurrence in your path when someone else (on all season tires?) loses it. As taught in professional defensive driving training, the immediate avoidance will be braking and turning. Applying throttle in that situation, on snow, in the first few instinctive-reaction seconds of making an emergency maneuver, is unlikely at best. Therefore, AWD is just extra weight riding along at that time. The convenience of AWD helping with turning under throttle is true, but can be easily managed without (assuming proper tires), perhaps just at a lower speed....we're not running winter gymkhanas out there on the streets!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zooks527

True. However, AWD with winter tires kicks serious ass over RWD with winter tires.

Not sure how to measure "kicks serious ass", but, yes, the ultimate combination is AWD with winter tires for an incremental improvement in getting moving, along with all the year round trade-offs discussed elsewhere. Each person has to do that personal balancing test for themselves. However, my earlier response was to refute the patently false statement that, "you are not going anywhere" without XDrive. That is myth.

Zooks527 · 11-12-2015, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sportstick

Applying throttle in that situation, on snow, in the first few instinctive-reaction seconds of making an emergency maneuver, is unlikely at best.

Unless you've done the other thing often mentioned in defensive driving courses: practice.

Case in point is on my [sarc]favorite[/sarc] curve near my house, an S-curve which has one corner where (a) the curve itself is in shade during the winter and (b) the snowbank on the east side is in full afternoon sun at the same time. Ice across one apex of the turn due to melt runoff is a common occurrence. More than once I have been confronted with a hausfrau in einem SUV beginning her sideways slide into my path, and needed to use the throttle to get out of her way.

Steve80bk · 11-12-2015, 09:49 AM

I'm anxious to try this out for myself this year to compare. With so many peoples opinions differing in this matter, I surely will be putting my 2 cents in. My 335i xdrive coupe was a 6 speed with all season tires, and I went through snow with no problem at all. Even pushed my dads civic out of the driveway when he was stuck n couldn't move. People in the car with me at times couldn't believe how well the car did, especially for a coupe. My m235i is rwd and I will be putting snow tires on within the next few weeks. Very curious to see the difference between the two in bad conditions. Regardless, not sure if I would go back to xdrive unless it was an x3, x5, model. The m235i is everything I wanted the first time around performance wise, so I definitely can't go back now.

RWDdrifter · 11-12-2015, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zooks527

Unless you've done the other thing often mentioned in defensive driving courses: practice.

Case in point is on my [sarc]favorite[/sarc] curve near my house, an S-curve which has one corner where (a) the curve itself is in shade during the winter and (b) the snowbank on the east side is in full afternoon sun at the same time. Ice across one apex of the turn due to melt runoff is a common occurrence. More than once I have been confronted with a hausfrau in einem SUV beginning her sideways slide into my path, and needed to use the throttle to get out of her way.

AWD may be important in your situation. I'm a bit skeptical because in decades of driving I've never found it helpful to accelerate to avoid a collision, but maybe your unique road and hausfrau conditions make it a factor for you. In any case, I think your example is very atypical.

I grew up in Buffalo and lived in the Northeast most of my life. I totally agree with Sportstick, based on my own decades of winter driving.

This issue has been discussed a lot in other threads so I'll resist the strong temptation to rehash it. Instead I Googled "does AWD help avoid accidents?" just to see what I'd find.
Here are the first four results for your consideration.

http://www.wheels.ca/news/does-all-w...inter-driving/

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2014/...ake-you-safer/

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/car-dr...ive-on-ice.htm

http://www.4x4abc.com/jeep101/safe.html

There are advantages to having AWD. There are also advantages to having a convertible. Neither are attractive to me, but I'm glad the options are there for those who want them.

brennok · 11-15-2015, 11:18 AM

Can someone tell me if the 328i with Xdrive compared to the 328i will give me an accurate view of what driving the M235i Xdrive vs M235i will be like? I realize the 328 will have a slight ride height difference, but I am thinking more of how the car handles with and without Xdrive.

Xdrive is tough to come by in my area but some of the dealers have various 328i models used with Xdrive. There are zero M235i Xdrive models anywhere near me. There is a 228i Xdrive used which would be more accurate of a comparison but that is over a hour away compared to 10 minutes for the 328i Xdrive.

shark715 · 11-15-2015, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brennok

Can someone tell me if the 328i with Xdrive compared to the 328i will give me an accurate view of what driving the M235i Xdrive vs M235i will be like? I realize the 328 will have a slight ride height difference, but I am thinking more of how the car handles with and without Xdrive.

Xdrive is tough to come by in my area but some of the dealers have various 328i models used with Xdrive. There are zero M235i Xdrive models anywhere near me. There is a 228i Xdrive used which would be more accurate of a comparison but that is over a hour away compared to 10 minutes for the 328i Xdrive.

Unfortunately the 328i and M235 are substantially different cars.

I would say in normal driving most drivers will not notice any difference in the handling between a 235 with and without Xdrive. I had the opportunity to drive them back to back very aggressively on three different occasions. if you push the car really hard (I would define this as driving at 90% or more) you can feel the additional weight, but I would also say the difference is rather slight, and certainly not dramatic. Again, the X drive equipped car will have more of a tendency to understeer, but not drastically so. I would say that plenty of drivers won't even notice the difference.

brennok · 11-15-2015, 12:38 PM

I figured the 328 to M235i would be completely different, but I figured driving a 328i to 328Xdrive would give me a decent idea on what if any difference I would notice in BMW's RWD vs AWD. The M235i is the first BMW I have ever considered.

I think it is just the inability to test drive both which is bothering me since I have always been an AWD guy even though it isn't needed where I am at.

Guitarman15 · 11-15-2015, 01:48 PM

I have xdrive M235 I think it's great.

bimmercar · 11-15-2015, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brennok

I figured the 328 to M235i would be completely different, but I figured driving a 328i to 328Xdrive would give me a decent idea on what if any difference I would notice in BMW's RWD vs AWD. The M235i is the first BMW I have ever considered.

I think it is just the inability to test drive both which is bothering me since I have always been an AWD guy even though it isn't needed where I am at.

the M235i X-drive is completely different from the 3 series x-drive. Not a fair comparison. The M division tuned the x-drive system on the M235i.

Transfer · 11-16-2015, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bimmercar

The M division tuned the x-drive system on the M235i.

I know it's not the same setup as the 3 series, but do we know that M division tuned the system for sure? It definitely feels like that as it is VERY rear wheel drive biased. I've been getting some nice sideways action in the recent rain here.

bimmercar · 11-16-2015, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Transfer

Quote:

Originally Posted by bimmercar

The M division tuned the x-drive system on the M235i.

I know it's not the same setup as the 3 series, but do we know that M division tuned the system for sure? It definitely feels like that as it is VERY rear wheel drive biased. I've been getting some nice sideways action in the recent rain here.

by deductive reasoning: your said m235i xdrive is very rwd biased(which i concur) and by the fact that i test drove 228i vs 228xi, the 228xi was much less rwd/or fun.... m division made lots of teeaks to the m235 xdrive

brennok · 11-19-2015, 07:00 PM

It looks like I may finally have as close to compare the two as I am going to get. Assuming it isn't a special order for a customer, the dealer now shows a M235i convertible with Xdrive on their site. While I would guess there would be some subtle differences when driving the convertible to the coupe, it should be pretty accurate to get a feel for Xdrive compared to RWD.

Transfer · 11-19-2015, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brennok

It looks like I may finally have as close to compare the two as I am going to get. Assuming it isn't a special order for a customer, the dealer now shows a M235i convertible with Xdrive on their site. While I would guess there would be some subtle differences when driving the convertible to the coupe, it should be pretty accurate to get a feel for Xdrive compared to RWD.

The M235i xDrive vert weighs 3955 lbs. That's over 400 lbs more than coupe RWD and 200 lbs more than coupe xDrive. If you try to compare that vert to RWD I think you're stacking the odds greatly in the favor of RWD.

I'm still super confused why anyone in Florida would want AWD though. Makes no sense when RWD is so good and you have neither hills nor cold temps.

11-12-2015, 01:34 AM	#204
Jbe0324 New Member 2 Rep 11 Posts Drives: 2015 bmw m235 Join Date: May 2015 Location: Canada iTrader: (0)	I live in Canada. Xdrive is essential or you are not going anywhere in heavy snow or slippery thick ass ice. I worked at a BMW dealership. We don't order M cars and RWD cars "special order"now. 95 % of bimmers sold are Xdrive here.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

11-12-2015, 09:49 AM	#210
Steve80bk Private 22 Rep 64 Posts Drives: 2015 superman m235i on the way Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Brooklyn iTrader: (0)	I'm anxious to try this out for myself this year to compare. With so many peoples opinions differing in this matter, I surely will be putting my 2 cents in. My 335i xdrive coupe was a 6 speed with all season tires, and I went through snow with no problem at all. Even pushed my dads civic out of the driveway when he was stuck n couldn't move. People in the car with me at times couldn't believe how well the car did, especially for a coupe. My m235i is rwd and I will be putting snow tires on within the next few weeks. Very curious to see the difference between the two in bad conditions. Regardless, not sure if I would go back to xdrive unless it was an x3, x5, model. The m235i is everything I wanted the first time around performance wise, so I definitely can't go back now.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

11-15-2015, 11:18 AM	#212
brennok New Member 0 Rep 16 Posts Drives: MKV R32 Join Date: Oct 2015 Location: FL iTrader: (0)	Can someone tell me if the 328i with Xdrive compared to the 328i will give me an accurate view of what driving the M235i Xdrive vs M235i will be like? I realize the 328 will have a slight ride height difference, but I am thinking more of how the car handles with and without Xdrive. Xdrive is tough to come by in my area but some of the dealers have various 328i models used with Xdrive. There are zero M235i Xdrive models anywhere near me. There is a 228i Xdrive used which would be more accurate of a comparison but that is over a hour away compared to 10 minutes for the 328i Xdrive.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

11-15-2015, 12:38 PM	#214
brennok New Member 0 Rep 16 Posts Drives: MKV R32 Join Date: Oct 2015 Location: FL iTrader: (0)	I figured the 328 to M235i would be completely different, but I figured driving a 328i to 328Xdrive would give me a decent idea on what if any difference I would notice in BMW's RWD vs AWD. The M235i is the first BMW I have ever considered. I think it is just the inability to test drive both which is bothering me since I have always been an AWD guy even though it isn't needed where I am at.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

11-15-2015, 01:48 PM	#215
Guitarman15 Private First Class 43 Rep 144 Posts Drives: 2015 M235 Xdrive Join Date: Nov 2015 Location: New York iTrader: (0)	I have xdrive M235 I think it's great.
	Appreciate 1 Quote

11-19-2015, 07:00 PM	#219
brennok New Member 0 Rep 16 Posts Drives: MKV R32 Join Date: Oct 2015 Location: FL iTrader: (0)	It looks like I may finally have as close to compare the two as I am going to get. Assuming it isn't a special order for a customer, the dealer now shows a M235i convertible with Xdrive on their site. While I would guess there would be some subtle differences when driving the convertible to the coupe, it should be pretty accurate to get a feel for Xdrive compared to RWD.
	Appreciate 0 Quote