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      01-04-2014, 07:06 PM   #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by red-sauerkraut View Post
Dude you need to calm down

Let the man express himself... you are not forced to read what he writes and you don't have the right to judge what others should read since the post is not directly addressed to you.

And, don't take me wrong because as an 1M owner I'm one who believes that 100 kg less from the 1M's overall weight is all it takes for a future M2 to completely eclipse the 1M, if petrol should still be the way to go. But anyway, I'm a strong believer in a diesel solution today, let alone in such a distant future ... Everything else, except for that lower weight, is more of the same, so Artemis may be right after all - the 1M will probably still be an icon for a long time to come and there's absolutely no need to wait for a M2.

After the 1M I will be leaving BMW since I feel they've abandoned their more demanding EFFICIENT DYNAMICS' customers such as myself, in the first place.

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      01-04-2014, 08:37 PM   #178
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I heard bmw is coming out with a state of the art Active Tourer M2 yo
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      01-04-2014, 09:56 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by ska325xi View Post
I heard bmw is coming out with a state of the art Active Tourer M2 yo
With BMW mainly targeting the Asiatic market everything is possible nowadays... just look at all those BMW's late design cues, mainly the M3/M4... they were for sure designed with the Asiatic market in mind.

I heard that while diesel engined cars were allowed to compete in major motorsport events they took overall victories in the WTCC, Le Mans and Dakar.

Maybe I'm hearing strange voices inside my head... and seeing strange Toyota styling BMW's...

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      01-04-2014, 10:40 PM   #180
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Too Fast&Furious, too Tokyo road scene... I see Japan vs Germany here:




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      01-05-2014, 11:07 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by GoingTooFast View Post
Let the man express himself... you are not forced to read what he writes and you don't have the right to judge what others should read since the post is not directly addressed to you.

And, don't take me wrong because as an 1M owner I'm one who believes that 100 kg less from the 1M's overall weight is all it takes for a future M2 to completely eclipse the 1M, if petrol should still be the way to go. But anyway, I'm a strong believer in a diesel solution today, let alone in such a distant future ... Everything else, except for that lower weight, is more of the same, so Artemis may be right after all - the 1M will probably still be an icon for a long time to come and there's absolutely no need to wait for a M2.

After the 1M I will be leaving BMW since I feel they've abandoned their more demanding EFFICIENT DYNAMICS' customers such as myself, in the first place.
Great post.
I have plan on owning an M2 & currently drive a 135is. Problem is, I really don't want to wait nearly 3 years while BMW vets their M3/M4 & M235i on the public... while they dangle the M2 carrot.

I can easily jump to a corvette, new mustang and/or audi, etc. But all-the-while we still wait for this quintessential phantom M2. And I say this, because without the M2 coming/on the horizon, I wouldn't even be on a BMW board. As even the new M3/M4 is unimpressive, due to it's physical size. I don't see the M4 tracking too well, over the M235i.. so it's essentially pointless as an M car.

So once again, with unimpressive elder Ms, a good portion of the performance community is waiting on any news of the 2016 M2. So the irony is, how long can BMW string us along and give the M3 and M4 and M235i "breathing room" ?



Problem is SCOTT, BMW doesn't understand we might give them all the breathing room they want... , by patronizing another brand. Something BMW always forget internally when looking at themselves. We can shop elsewhere, they can't...
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      01-06-2014, 05:10 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by w3rkn View Post
I can easily jump to a corvette, new mustang and/or audi, etc. But all-the-while we still wait for this quintessential phantom M2. And I say this, because without the M2 coming/on the horizon, I wouldn't even be on a BMW board. As even the new M3/M4 is unimpressive, due to it's physical size. I don't see the M4 tracking too well, over the M235i.. so it's essentially pointless as an M car.
I think everyone is now waiting for a miracle from BMW... so, it's all a question of faith. For those who believe in miracles the wait is always justifiable, for those who don't it's time to move on!

Meanwhile, the evidences are overwhelming...

Quote:
On a separate note, after a two week 4C-only diet I got behind the wheel of my M3 today for a couple hours. It has a fabulous engine, no doubt (I have a V8 sedan), but my lord does it feel NUMB compared to the 4C!
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      01-07-2014, 05:12 PM   #183
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A M2 is the one car I'm really looking at as I'm pretty sure an M3/4 will be far out of my price range and my wife's comfort zone. I also like that the M2 is a much smaller car; I love smaller cars (hence my 135i).

As someone said earlier, love at first sight, I had that same feeling. I hope that BMW will make this car and I actually think they might.
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      01-07-2014, 06:52 PM   #184
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As someone said earlier, love at first sight, I had that same feeling. I hope that BMW will make this car and I actually think they might.
The question is not if BMW will ever produce a M2 because I really believe they will... the question is: what will it bring us of special?!

Although I can't appreciate the looks of the M3/4 and late BMW's for that matter (the 6 series being the exception) I admit that BMW did a good effort reducing the M3/4 overall weight and thus I'm sure that the new M3/4 combined lower weight and much higher torque will drive better than the M3 E92.

And, that's pretty much what I've been defending for a new special M model - significantly lower weight and higher torque. Since low weight means compactness first and foremost, and diesel means higher torque and also MUCH better fuel efficiency I can easily see a triple-turbocharged diesel engined M2 proposition checking all the necessary boxes. The triple turbo assures the necessary throttle response quality!!!

That would be definitely VERY special, something WAY better than this 125d diesel...


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      01-07-2014, 10:08 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by GoingTooFast View Post
The question is not if BMW will ever produce a M2 because I really believe they will... the question is: what will it bring us of special?!

Although I can't appreciate the looks of the M3/4 and late BMW's for that matter (the 6 series being the exception) I admit that BMW did a good effort reducing the M3/4 overall weight and thus I'm sure that the new M3/4 combined lower weight and much higher torque will drive better than the M3 E92.

And, that's pretty much what I've been defending for a new special M model - significantly lower weight and higher torque. Since low weight means compactness first and foremost, and diesel means higher torque and also MUCH better fuel efficiency I can easily see a triple-turbocharged diesel engined M2 proposition checking all the necessary boxes. The triple turbo assures the necessary throttle response quality!!!

That would be definitely VERY special, something WAY better than this 125d diesel...

For whatever reason to me an "M" car and the word diesel do not seem go together at all. It sounds like an oxymoron. I admit that would be special, but it also sounds uninspiring or I guess rather boring.
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      01-08-2014, 01:14 AM   #186
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Torque is a non-issue for a sport oriented car. Just make it scream. I don't see diesel being a better choice on this segment. Some overall win in endurance racing do not make for the complete story.

That, and the turbo petrol can also boast some impressive tq figures these days. I'n saying all that while lamenting the lack of diesel options for grocery getters, where it makes a lot of sense.
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      01-08-2014, 09:36 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by JC135 View Post
For whatever reason to me an "M" car and the word diesel do not seem go together at all. It sounds like an oxymoron. I admit that would be special, but it also sounds uninspiring or I guess rather boring.
That is a cliche. Until the 1M came along the very same could be said about M cars and turbocharged engines... and yet you now have a turbocharged M3/4.

Like the 1M worked out as a market acceptance indicator for a future turbocharged M3 with undeniable SUCCESS the M2 could do exactly the same for a diesel M3 generation.

What is the 1M secret?!

Compactness and BIG low rev torque at the rear wheels.

The result: a tail happy FUN machine even at low street legal speeds.

The shortcomings: still HEAVY, not very good turn-in characteristics, not very confidence inspiring driven fast, needs a skillful driver to extract full potential, lousy fuel efficiency.
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      01-08-2014, 11:23 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by Meeni View Post
Torque is a non-issue for a sport oriented car. Just make it scream. I don't see diesel being a better choice on this segment. Some overall win in endurance racing do not make for tthe complete story.

That, and the turbo petrol can also boast some impressive tq figures these days. I'n saying all that while lamenting the lack of diesel options for grocery getters, where it makes a lot of sense.
You are wrong I'm affraid... torque is a fundamental aspect of a car's driving dynamics. What you are missing is the concept of TORQUE AT THE WHEELS.

High revving engined cars are able to get high torque at the wheels by means of very short gear ratios. Turbocharged diesel engines, on the other hand, can achieve the same result by means of an higher specific ENGINE TORQUE output readily available from very low rpm which allows the use of taller gear ratios.

Therefore, with a diesel engine not only you reduce the inevitable frictional losses associated with higher rotational speeds of the engine parts and transmission gears (the car's drivetrain) but also you get higher mileage for each rotation of the engine's crankshaft for the same engine rpm range, by virtue of taller gear ratios.

Moreover, with the increasingly popular 8-speed paddle-shift fast actuated automatic transmissions you are now able to keep much closer gear ratios in order to sustain higher acceleration throughout the gears. So, it's becoming normal for a less powerful diesel engine to allow a MUCH heavier car to match the 0-62 mph (0-100 km/h) acceleration time of a lighter and more powerful petrol engined one. I'll give you an example...

The 8-speed BMW M550d has a max. power of only 381hp and weighs practically 2 ton and yet is faster from 0 to 62 mph than a manual 420hp M3 V8 and basically matches the M3 V8 (7-speed) DCT acceleration time figure (4.7 sec against 4.6 sec). The M3 V8 DCT weight is significantly lower at 1650 kg!!! The difference is that while the M3 V8 DCT reaches 62mph from standstill in max. acceleration at 2nd gear hitting the redline, the triple-turbocharged M550d reaches that same speed in 3rd gear hitting its 5500 rpm redline for max. acceleration from standstill.

As for the M550d engine max. torque, it's unbelievable high at 546 lb-ft, whereas the M3 V8 only gives you 295 lb-ft.

'Grocery getters' you say... well, check this "Meeni" to go to the supermarket in the desert (also WTCC is not about endurance, you know?!)... this REALLY is EFFICIENT DYNAMICS:

Quote:
X-raid, winner of the Dakar Rally for the last two years with its near-indestructible Mini Countryman, has revealed its weapon for the 2014 race. Yes, it's another Countryman, and, as this teaser video proves, the big Mini will be just as tough to beat as its predecessors.

(...)

Each Mini packs a 3.0-litre twin-turbo diesel engine producing 307bhp, 510lb ft of torque and a top speed of 110mph. There's a Sadev six-speed gearbox, an AP racing clutch, an Xtrac differential, AP ventilated discs measuring 320mm, and the whole thing weighs a rather gargantuan 1900kg

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      01-09-2014, 07:54 PM   #189
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Am I the only one who wants an ultra premium M2 with all the bells and whistles? I'd pay more than an M4 for it if it was the same in terms of performance but a more raw and toss able package. Maybe we can do a M2 CRT?
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      01-10-2014, 07:47 AM   #190
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Am I the only one who wants an ultra premium M2 with all the bells and whistles?
Unfortunately, you are not the only one! Actually, you represent the majority of BMW's M buyers and that's really the problem. Why?!

Because you demand an 'ultra premium car with all the bells and whistles' first and foremost. After adding all that weight to the car, you then demand the impossible... 'a more tossable heavier car'. When are you finally going to understand that this is a gross contradiction in terms?!

Look, you have to go back and realize that the original M cars, notably the E30, were brought from the track to street and not the other way around. This means the 'formula' was fundamentally right from the get go.

What you are asking for is exactly the opposite... 'give me the comfort and luxury then add driving fun'. It ain't gonna happen, I'm sorry!

What you are asking for is some sort of miracle... BMW, or any other car manufacturer for that matter, don't do miracles.

And if your idea of miracle is called Porsche then let me tell you that their lightest four seater is not fun at all... Panamera anyone?!
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      01-10-2014, 09:35 AM   #191
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A future M2 must be much more close related to this or else it won't be special but simply more of the same:




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      01-10-2014, 10:33 AM   #192
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Originally Posted by GoingTooFast View Post
Too Fast&Furious, too Tokyo road scene... I see Japan vs Germany here:
I can see why you would say that but I don't think BMW has gone too far down that road. In my eyes, the 4 is interesting to look at; the Audi, not so much.


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Originally Posted by GoingTooFast View Post
A future M2 must be much more close related to this or else it won't be special but simply more of the same:

Agree.
This would be the way to differentiate the M2 from the rest of the line up. No worries about the M2 cannibalizing M4 sales. In fact, in an ideal world, I would like to have an M3 and an M2 if its like this.
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      01-10-2014, 10:51 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by Legion5 View Post
Am I the only one who wants an ultra premium M2 with all the bells and whistles? I'd pay more than an M4 for it if it was the same in terms of performance but a more raw and toss able package. Maybe we can do a M2 CRT?
Problem is, are you really going to wait 3 years for an M2..? Maybe even longer for a Grand Coupe M2..?
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      01-10-2014, 12:04 PM   #194
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I can see why you would say that but I don't think BMW has gone too far down that road. In my eyes, the 4 is interesting to look at; the Audi, not so much.
Maybe I'm biased, I don't know but I'm yet to see a Walter de Silva's design that is not great like the Audi A5 (in fact, he said himself that the A5 was his best design till then) or his latest Porsche Macan... can you see how he got design cues from the old 928?!






As for the M4... not nice, not nice at all!!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew10 View Post
In fact, in an ideal world, I would like to have an M3 and an M2 if its like this.
Oh, no! In an ideal world a true four seater car should handle like these:





Since it's not possible, you can have a saloon and then one of those for CHEER DRIVING PLEASURE!

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      01-10-2014, 12:27 PM   #195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoingTooFast View Post
A future M2 must be much more close related to this or else it won't be special but simply more of the same:




But that's "just" an m235i with wider fenders and no interior.
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      01-10-2014, 12:43 PM   #196
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But that's "just" an m235i with wider fenders and no interior.
I guess you've just found yourself a way of getting rid of more than 100 kg of unnecessary weight...
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      01-10-2014, 01:01 PM   #197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoingTooFast View Post
Maybe I'm biased, I don't know but I'm yet to see a Walter de Silva's design that is not great like the Audi A5 (in fact, he said himself that the A5 was his best design till then) or his latest Porsche Macan... can you see how he got design cues from the old 928?!






As for the M4... not nice, not nice at all!!!




Oh, no! In an ideal world a true four seater car should handle like these:





Since it's not possible, you can have a saloon and then one of those for CHEER DRIVING PLEASURE!
Wow, you have an ugly 1M and you think the M4 is not nice? I'm on my 14th BMW getting ready to order my 15th and the M4 is one of the best looking BMW's I've ever seen so opinions are like asshole's. Too big maybe but it's a stunner in my opinion, if I wanted to spend $70K I'd have no problem buying one I'm just not into wasting that kind of money on a car.
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      01-10-2014, 01:18 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by GoingTooFast View Post
I guess you've just found yourself a way of getting rid of more than 100 kg of unnecessary weight...
I don't need to get rid of 100kgs lol.
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