[BMW335iOn18s]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

I am trying to understand your point, but this may help with mine. I am not standing up for anyone else and I agree with many of the points he made about AWD vs RWD/stick. I am not clear why that is a concern. It was the callous commentary based on gender which elicited my response. I start with the premise that I am in charge of my own emotional reactions, so I can choose to feel offended or not, and I choose not. Having said that, the inherent offensiveness of the original comment remains, no matter how I choose to react to it. I usually choose to react to offensive comments by considering the source and choosing not to allow them to take charge of my feelings. But, I can observe that what they did was generally regarded as offensive, as was the case here. I can tell by the more recent reply post that I was not successful, however, in making the point to him that offensiveness, per se, whether to strangers online or to those we know, should always be avoided. Have a good day!

Ok, how's this for a statement: In my honest opinion, which has absolutely NO meaning in the real world, is that, Automatic/Xdrive BMWs are for non-enthusiasts. My parents drive automatic BMWs. Do they love them? Yes. Are they awesome people? Yes. Are they BMW enthusiasts? Not in the same sense we are.

[BMW335iOn18s]

Gio, get the stick M235i. And a eBay/BMS clutch stop (take out the washers it comes with). My M235i has ALL the luxury of the F10, with the rawness of an E36. Best street car in the world!!!

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by BMW335iOn18s

Ok, how's this for a statement: In my honest opinion, which has absolutely NO meaning in the real world, is that, Automatic/Xdrive BMWs are for non-enthusiasts. My parents drive automatic BMWs. Do they love them? Yes. Are they awesome people? Yes. Are they BMW enthusiasts? Not in the same sense we are.

I agree with you! The stick drivers are probably the leading edge of BMW enthusiasts. BMW drivers in general may be more driving-enthusiastic than the general population, but the AWD/Automatic drivers are likely not quite as engaged in the driving experience as the MT drivers.

[hoppy6698]

Okay, so back to the OP then ...

Originally Posted by gio

I noticed that the 235 comes in an all-wheel drive option. Is it worth getting. I live in Massachusetts and we do get a bit of snow and my first car (2000 Audi TT) had all-wheel drive and was great in the snow. ... In my experience, my rear-wheel-drive 135 with snow tires was better in the snow than most cars with front-wheel-drive with all-season tires.

My second question is regarding automatic vs manual transmission. All my cars have been manual transmission cars and in the past, a manual transmission meant better performance and better fuel efficiency. I notice it is the opposite now, though, and to a fairly large degree. I still prefer to drive a manual but if the automatic transmissions are really as good as they seem, I might consider switching.

I know I must be in the vast minority but I had active steering on my 2008 135 and I absolutely loved it. I noticed they don't offer it anymore but that even the stock steering has changed. I'm curious to hear what people think of it.

So will take these point by point. One quick reference - I'm coming from an Audi A4, quattro, so I have experience with the AWD in deep snow, ice, etc.

1) AWD will add some weight, I think its about 120lbs? Check stock curb weights. An advantage BMW xDrive has is the base 30/70 power split it comes with. I test drove on a M235 xDrive. I could not notice the extra weight up front, but I did not put it through track paces either. Coming from my A4, I was used to extra weight over the nose anyways. Now I have my RWD M235i and I prefer it without the extra xDrive. The turn in feels sharper and the front tires are noticeably not working as hard as my Audi in a corner. All that said, I'm no longer in the deep snow region so I was free to pick something with a little more summer fun focused.

On the all season tires v. snow, its well known by now that harsh winters need true winter tires, especially when the white stuff cometh. Even Conti DWS on my Audi were okay, but I had a friend with an E30 on snow tires keep up with me in 6" deep powder.

2) Automatic. The ZF8 is very sweet. Coming from my steptronic 6 in the Audi, it is incredibly smooth. If I drop it to econo mode, the shifts become smooth as butter (undetectable). Manual shifting is fun for times you really want to be in control and the rest of the time you can just sit back and enjoy the drive.

3) Steering. Again, on this BMW is far above Audi. My A4 felt more floaty after the test drive. Turn in is sharp on the M235i. I do not miss the extra effort from the Audi, but I do not feel like it is missing either (like Lexus/Cadi lack of feeling of old).

Forgot - Last note, you cannot have both xDrive and manual. Only the RWD has the manual as an option. Good thing the ZF8 is so nice

Hope this helps and gets the thread back on track for the OP.

[Bahuba]

My previous car was a 08 135i 6MT with the M-sport package. I had my M235 since June. At one point I owned both cars for about a month and drove them back to back. The M235 is more refined. The adaptive suspension and perhaps the longer wheelbase makes the 2er feel more poised. Initially I preferred the steering of the 135 (I liked the weightiness) but over time I got over it. If you ever get to drive the 2er on a very twisty road, the 2er steering is amazing, very precise, responsive and the variable ratio means you never have to take your hands off the wheel even on sharp bends. The MT on the 2er is a noticable improvement over the 135. There's an audible click that's nice and the 1-2 shift is easier to get right. There's less turbo lag, almost none in fact in the 2er. There's more mid and high range torque. Since I've switched to winter tires (Dunlop 3Ds, on 18" rims, came from my 1er) I noticed I have to feather the accelerator even in 2nd gear otherwise I'm breaking traction, this is on mostly dry roads, this never happend with the 1er. The interior is much nicer in the 2er, and if you do a lot of night driving, get the HBA option, and remove the variable light and anti-dazzle coding options, that has got to be one of the coolest bits of tech. Overall, the 2er is amzing do it all car, you can take it on a long hwy cruise in comfort mode and it won't beat you up. I won't hesitate to take this on a solo drive 5hr drives to Toronto or Muskokas. However, I almost exclusively drive the car in sport+ mode, even in winter with the snow (I like getting the tail out), and I love every minute of it, never looked back at the 1er.

[DSTR]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

I agree with you! The stick drivers are probably the leading edge of BMW enthusiasts. BMW drivers in general may be more driving-enthusiastic than the general population, but the AWD/Automatic drivers are likely not quite as engaged in the driving experience as the MT drivers.

Laughable but I wont miss you when Im at the Ring or on the Autobahn driving my autom-M235i or in the Alps. The most ridiculous post in the forum lol. Im glad BMW was only made for you. Leading edge in a 2. That's a touch arrogant. Auto drivers -- are still drivers. Questions?

I have a friend at Weissach working the new GT3-RS. It will be PDK. Worthless driver he is lol?? As a friend in Los Angeles would say - 'have another drink'!

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by DSTR

Laughable but I wont miss you when Im at the Ring or on the Autobahn driving my autom-M235i or in the Alps. The most ridiculous post in the forum lol. Im glad BMW was only made for you. Leading edge in a 2. That's a touch arrogant.

I have a friend at Weissach working the new GT3-RS. It will be PDK. Worthless driver he is lol?? As a friend in Los Angeles would say - 'have another drink'!

The point was missed. More specifically this time, based on large sample data (I do market research for a living), it is demonstrable that buyers of manual transmissions as a group are more engaged and enthusiastic about their driving experience than are buyers of automatic transmissions as a group. In any population, there is variation, and the handful of high-performance drivers of specific models with automatic transmissions are a very small component at the tail of the distribution of the total market.

If you sample the total population of buyers of the 2 Series, the most likely outcome is that this pattern across the industry will hold and the MT buyers will again be the most engaged and enthusiastic on a self-reported measure. There was no comment on the 2, itself, being leading edge. The majority of 2 Series, if not all BMWs, will be more likely found at a suburban mall than a race track. But, within the total group of 2 buyers, as with most other vehicles, the MT buyers will likely be the most engaged overall. You cannot base an argument on outliers a few standard deviations out.

[BD_F22]

This whole non sense of auto vs manual dictates if you are a true enthusiast is a joke.. I guess all GTR owners aren't real enthusiasts either according to these allegations? I personally drive an AWD/Auto and love the combo because I can launch the car at the track with zero wheel spin and its no secret most of the fastest drag cars are auto.

Also numbers don't lie it has been proven that the zf8 is significantly faster than the 6mt

http://www.caranddriver.com/bmw/2-series

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by BD_F22

This whole non sense of auto vs manual dictates if you are a true enthusiast is a joke.. I guess all GTR owners aren't real enthusiasts either according to these allegations? I personally drive an AWD/Auto and love the combo because I can launch the car at the track with zero wheel spin and its no secret most of the fastest drag cars are auto.

Also numbers don't lie it has been proven that the zf8 is significantly faster than the 6mt

http://www.caranddriver.com/bmw/2-series

That's not the proper interpretation. Nothing is dictated. If you take two samples, one of MT drivers and one of AT drivers and ask them both to assess their own level of enthusiasm and engagement with their driving, there is a relative difference which consistently results in the AT drivers rating themselves as less engaged and enthusiastic about driving. No external person confers "enthusiast" status on someone else...these are self-assessments. And, there is no "bright line"...this is a relative measure of degrees of difference. You can't make the "black and white" statements such as the GTR example. The actual performance of the vehicle has no bearing on how large samples of drivers rate their own personal level of interest. And, this data cannot be used to conclusively categorize any individual, as variation exists. But, across populations, this distinction does exist.

This really shouldn't be this emotional. This is just data analysis over years of large sample sizes.

[BD_F22]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

That's not the proper interpretation. Nothing is dictated. If you take two samples, one of MT drivers and one of AT drivers and ask them both to assess their own level of enthusiasm and engagement with their driving, there is a relative difference which consistently results in the AT drivers rating themselves as less engaged and enthusiastic about driving. No external person confers "enthusiast" status on someone else...these are self-assessments. And, there is no "bright line"...this is a relative measure of degrees of difference. You can't make the "black and white" statements such as the GTR example. The actual performance of the vehicle has no bearing on how large samples of drivers rate their own personal level of interest. And, this data cannot be used to conclusively categorize any individual, as variation exists. But, across populations, this distinction does exist.

This really shouldn't be this emotional. This is just data analysis over years of large sample sizes.

The GTR reference is not about the performance or power of the car its to show that a GTR is a coveted car by most enthusiasts but yet its only offered in AWD/Auto. Try telling a GTR owner they aren't a true "enthusiast" and see how they take it.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by BD_F22

The GTR reference is not about the performance or power of the car its to show that a GTR is a coveted car by most enthusiasts but yet its only offered in AWD/Auto. Try telling a GTR owner they aren't a true "enthusiast" and see how they take it.

The intent is not to challenge how any given individual sees themselves. This is about comparison of how population samples do self-assessments. The GTR example is not relevant, as there is no MT/AT comparison which can be made within the model. The entire logic of this discussion has been premised as a "within model" distinction not "across models". Clearly, most if not all GTR buyers would rate high on any scale of enthusiasm or engagement. However, in a hypothetical, if one could query robust sample sizes of MT vs AT GTR buyers, the very buyer requirements which caused them to buy each version would likely show up in differential responses to how they view their driving experience requirements. These kinds of differences have occurred where the trans choice exists. It is possible that this may change over time, as ATs have indeed exceeded MTs for performance, but that has not been the history. Again....just data and not meant to undermine any given individual's self-esteem.

[BD_F22]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

The intent is not to challenge how any given individual sees themselves. This is about comparison of how population samples do self-assessments. The GTR example is not relevant, as there is no MT/AT comparison which can be made within the model. The entire logic of this discussion has been premised as a "within model" distinction not "across models". Clearly, most if not all GTR buyers would rate high on any scale of enthusiasm or engagement. However, in a hypothetical, if one could query robust sample sizes of MT vs AT GTR buyers, the very buyer requirements which caused them to buy each version would likely show up in differential responses to how they view their driving experience requirements. These kinds of differences have occurred where the trans choice exists. It is possible that this may change over time, as ATs have indeed exceeded MTs for performance, but that has not been the history. Again....just data and not meant to undermine any given individual's self-esteem.

Trust me I am not like others on this forum who takes things like this and get all butt hurt about them haha. I drive what I do for my reasons and don't care what others think but I do like playing devils advocate, plus there isn't really anything else to talk about on the 2er side of the forum yet

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by BD_F22

Trust me I am not like others on this forum who takes things like this and get all butt hurt about them haha. I drive what I do for my reasons and don't care what others think but I do like playing devils advocate, plus there isn't really anything else to talk about on the 2er side of the forum yet

Enjoyed the chat from here too! A good thread-mate makes for interesting discussion! Never intend to make anyone feel bad, but it's interesting mental activity on a slow Sunday after the newspapers are done! You would think after working with this kind of stuff all week, I'd take the weekend off from thinking about it, but I do this kind of work because I like it so much! Thanks for the chat!

[brocklanders]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

The point was missed. More specifically this time, based on large sample data (I do market research for a living), it is demonstrable that buyers of manual transmissions as a group are more engaged and enthusiastic about their driving experience than are buyers of automatic transmissions as a group. In any population, there is variation, and the handful of high-performance drivers of specific models with automatic transmissions are a very small component at the tail of the distribution of the total market.

If you sample the total population of buyers of the 2 Series, the most likely outcome is that this pattern across the industry will hold and the MT buyers will again be the most engaged and enthusiastic on a self-reported measure. There was no comment on the 2, itself, being leading edge. The majority of 2 Series, if not all BMWs, will be more likely found at a suburban mall than a race track. But, within the total group of 2 buyers, as with most other vehicles, the MT buyers will likely be the most engaged overall. You cannot base an argument on outliers a few standard deviations out.

Did you need to use your market research expertise to come up with this? Your point is common sense, it used to be two types of manual drivers but now that you have to seek out a manual there is only one type. I used to be a die hard manual driver until I took a test drive in my current car, times are changing fellas, you better get with it or be left in the dust literally and figuratively.

[BMW335iOn18s]

The point is, not everything is about speed and laptimes. I know an automatic M235i is faster than my car. Is it more engaging? No. It's more fun to drive a stick shift around town than an automatic around town. The automatic, i'm sure, is nice on the track, where you dont have to think about what gear your in, but I don't go to the track and I want to feel like i'm one with the car. Even when i'm just driving to school, work, or the grocery store.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by brocklanders

Did you need to use your market research expertise to come up with this? Your point is common sense, ...

Not necessarily, but it moves it from an "I think-You think" opinion to fact, through data, which is our clients' preference.

[Mark's M]

Originally Posted by BD_F22

This whole non sense of auto vs manual dictates if you are a true enthusiast is a joke.. I guess all GTR owners aren't real enthusiasts either according to these allegations? I personally drive an AWD/Auto and love the combo because I can launch the car at the track with zero wheel spin and its no secret most of the fastest drag cars are auto.

Also numbers don't lie it has been proven that the zf8 is significantly faster than the 6mt

http://www.caranddriver.com/bmw/2-series

I second this and your other posts. This discussion is ridiculous in terms of the references to and/or the implications of stereotyping auto drivers as non-enthusiasts. And you can add AWD to the mix as well. I'm sorry for those who still rest on BMW's really old "it's RWD so it's got to be the ultimate driving machine" laurels because this just isn't so anymore. Not that the M235 isn't a great car and one of the best they've come out with in years but RWD and AWD versions of the car, whether 6mt or auto, offer different performance benefits for different performance requirements. Period. My '11 M3 was a a 6mt and I even tracked it. Gee I must be a performance enthusiast! Stupid me didn't realize that I'd lose that status when I sold it.

At the end of the day I personally enjoy a performance oriented AWD system and not just for winter/snow conditions which all of these silly arguments seem to get fixated on. AWD has it's benefits in the simply wet and yes...the simply dry too. And sport autos nowadays, like BMW's, are simply too fantastic to pass up if you can live with a little less engagement (yes, I admit this but I said "a little less").

So for the poor OP whose question got hijacked not once but twice in the same thread, do your best to drive both of them hard over the same route if you can. If the roads are wet, even better. Forget the snow shit. Any "performance" driver worthy of considering themselves as same can get around the stuff no matter what they drive provided they're wearing the right shoes.

[BMW335iOn18s]

Read the last sentence.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...-tested-review

[gio]

Thank you everyone for the advice, even if it did get a little off-topic there for a bit, lol.

My first car was a 2000 Audi TT w/quattro (bought new) which I drove for over 8 years. I had a set of rims with snow tires for it and I could go anywhere in the snow. In 2008, I got my 135. I purchased a set of 17" 128 rims with performance snow tires and I rarely had problems with the snow. But to be honest I once had to be towed out of a street parking spot because there was a patch of ice under my rear tires. I also usually kept about 75lb of cat litter in the trunk to weigh the back end down during the winter. That said, I drove it in the snow all the time, including times during heavy snowfall and with a couple of inches on the ground when most everyone else was staying in. So my 135 was nowhere near as good as the Audi (which was small, heavy, and had AWD), but it was adequate, at least for Boston, where I live.

I'm a firm believer that a rear-wheel drive car with good snow tires, especially one with good front-back weight balance like BMW makes is much better in the snow than a front-wheel drive car with all-season tires. Once, to compare, I drove my gf's brand-new Mazda 3 (FWD, all-season tires) around in the snow and then my 1. The 1 was much better. Another time on a ski trip to Vermont, my sister, in her VW Rabbit (now the Golf, again FWD and all-season tires) was unable to make it up the hill to the ski house where we were staying. My 1 had no problem. She had to leave her car on the side of the road for the whole vacation.

I'm pretty much set on getting a rear wheel drive 235 now (at least 80% sure). The BMW dealer here I talked to said pretty much the same thing as what was said here (um, the controversial remark). He said that the xDrive model was a little higher up due to the space required for the differential and it didn't handle as well although your 0-60 time will be better purely due to the added traction.

So now my big decision is manual vs automatic. My last two cars were both manual (the early Audi TT was only available as a manual). I love driving a manual and I find driving automatics annoying in the ways that everyone else finds manuals, lol. For example, I find it very disturbing that my current automatic rental car (Ford Focus) always wants to creep forward on flat ground if I don't have my foot pressed firmly down on the brake. That said, it's really hard to turn the amazing 8-speed automatic in the 2-series. It used to be that you'd both save money and get better fuel efficiency from a manual, but now the automatic is both more efficient and is no more expensive than the manual option. I have a an appt to drive a 235xi that is an automatic later this week and I'll see what I think.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by gio

So now my big decision is manual vs automatic. My last two cars were both manual (the early Audi TT was only available as a manual). I love driving a manual and I find driving automatics annoying in the ways that everyone else finds manuals, lol. For example, I find it very disturbing that my current automatic rental car (Ford Focus) always wants to creep forward on flat ground if I don't have my foot pressed firmly down on the brake. That said, it's really hard to turn the amazing 8-speed automatic in the 2-series. It used to be that you'd both save money and get better fuel efficiency from a manual, but now the automatic is both more efficient and is no more expensive than the manual option. I have a an appt to drive a 235xi that is an automatic later this week and I'll see what I think.

The 2 Series 8AT is the finest automatic I've ever driven. One no longer buys a stick for performance nor fuel economy. But, if your left leg and relevant parts of your mind really want to have a third pedal to play/work, and your right arm wants a console shifter that doesn't just sit there most of the time, then choose the stick. If all that is a joy and not a chore, choose the stick. If that doesn't apply to you, you won't yet find a better AT.

[BD_F22]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

The 2 Series 8AT is the finest automatic I've ever driven. One no longer buys a stick for performance nor fuel economy. But, if your left leg and relevant parts of your mind really want to have a third pedal to play/work, and your right arm wants a console shifter that doesn't just sit there most of the time, then choose the stick. If all that is a joy and not a chore, choose the stick. If that doesn't apply to you, you won't yet find a better AT.

I second that, if you like stick and it's not a bother then by all means go for it but the zf8 is definitely not a bad choice it is the best AT I've driven also and I come from a 2013 S4 with the 7spd DCT and had the AT in my 335 with the Alpina Flash and the ZF8 is far better in every way possible. Really can't make a wrong choice here

[BMW335iOn18s]

Originally Posted by gio

Thank you everyone for the advice, even if it did get a little off-topic there for a bit, lol.

My first car was a 2000 Audi TT w/quattro (bought new) which I drove for over 8 years. I had a set of rims with snow tires for it and I could go anywhere in the snow. In 2008, I got my 135. I purchased a set of 17" 128 rims with performance snow tires and I rarely had problems with the snow. But to be honest I once had to be towed out of a street parking spot because there was a patch of ice under my rear tires. I also usually kept about 75lb of cat litter in the trunk to weigh the back end down during the winter. That said, I drove it in the snow all the time, including times during heavy snowfall and with a couple of inches on the ground when most everyone else was staying in. So my 135 was nowhere near as good as the Audi (which was small, heavy, and had AWD), but it was adequate, at least for Boston, where I live.

I'm a firm believer that a rear-wheel drive car with good snow tires, especially one with good front-back weight balance like BMW makes is much better in the snow than a front-wheel drive car with all-season tires. Once, to compare, I drove my gf's brand-new Mazda 3 (FWD, all-season tires) around in the snow and then my 1. The 1 was much better. Another time on a ski trip to Vermont, my sister, in her VW Rabbit (now the Golf, again FWD and all-season tires) was unable to make it up the hill to the ski house where we were staying. My 1 had no problem. She had to leave her car on the side of the road for the whole vacation.

I'm pretty much set on getting a rear wheel drive 235 now (at least 80% sure). The BMW dealer here I talked to said pretty much the same thing as what was said here (um, the controversial remark). He said that the xDrive model was a little higher up due to the space required for the differential and it didn't handle as well although your 0-60 time will be better purely due to the added traction.

So now my big decision is manual vs automatic. My last two cars were both manual (the early Audi TT was only available as a manual). I love driving a manual and I find driving automatics annoying in the ways that everyone else finds manuals, lol. For example, I find it very disturbing that my current automatic rental car (Ford Focus) always wants to creep forward on flat ground if I don't have my foot pressed firmly down on the brake. That said, it's really hard to turn the amazing 8-speed automatic in the 2-series. It used to be that you'd both save money and get better fuel efficiency from a manual, but now the automatic is both more efficient and is no more expensive than the manual option. I have a an appt to drive a 235xi that is an automatic later this week and I'll see what I think.

Your salesman agreed with ME? Who is this dealer?? I need to give him my business next time!