[RWDdrifter]

Originally Posted by dalrx

It's a ridiculous notion that you wouldn't get a manual because the other half can't drive one. Well help them learn to do so! There was a point when they had to learn to drive in the first place in life. We all had to learn manual at one point too. I have traveled all over world most trans in other countries are stick. Woman all drive them no issue...so what is wrong with north America? ?? Lazy.

(1) I guess you can't imagine that the wife doesn't want to learn to drive a manual? Or maybe you think she should be told/pressured to do so?

(2) I hope you are not one of those "lazy" people who use an iPhone, MacBook, ... to access the web. After all, real technology masters still build their own customized systems. Viva Arch Linux!

Technology marches on. Skills that were mastered and enjoyed in the past often become less relevant and valuable in the future.

Just be glad that manual transmissions are still available for those who prefer them.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by RWDdrifter

Technology marches on. Skills that were mastered and enjoyed in the past often become less relevant and valuable in the future.

Just be glad that manual transmissions are still available for those who prefer them.

This. I mean, c'mon: the hardest-core race cars on the planet -- Formula One cars -- have what are essentially automatics in manual mode. So do the hardest-core supercars on the planet. That said, manuals provide for certain 'specialty' racing to exist -- drifting comes immediately to mind. (I won't bring up NASCAR. Whole 'nutha set of issues.)

A good AT makes a car quicker. Period. A good AT can make a car more efficient. Period. A good AT makes almost every U.S. car worth more. Period. About the only things a good AT can't make a car is lighter and simpler -- and that said, reliability for ATs is light years beyond where it was even 10, 15 years ago. Remember when power window switches were seen as unreliable? What happened to the good ol' fashioned window crank?

Disclosure: I spent a good chunk of my later childhood in Europe and have owned nothing but manual vehicles -- even the one SUV I owned was a stick -- until recently. In a car like my 228i, I don't miss it one bit. In fact, even in a car like a Fiat 500 Sport (I drove one from Texas to the Bay Area, on a 'scenic route' with plenty of twisties, late last year), I didn't miss it. You bond with a car in a different way with a manual-mode auto, which is just a better transmission for the vast, vast majority of contemporary cars once you learn how to operate it and appreciate it.

Are there cars out there that are likely better with a manual? Sure. IMHO, no new BMW is among them.

[Luftwaffe1O1]

I have the 8AT, and honestly I dont have any regrets. Having said that... I have a 5 speed Z3 so that fills my rowing the gears needs from time to time. But in all honesty, the ZF8 is an awesome transmission, I wouldn't call it a slush box, since the AT version of the 235 is significantly quicker than the 6MT.

[RWDdrifter]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

This. I mean, c'mon: the hardest-core race cars on the planet -- Formula One cars -- have what are essentially automatics in manual mode. So do the hardest-core supercars on the planet. That said, manuals provide for certain 'specialty' racing to exist -- drifting comes immediately to mind. (I won't bring up NASCAR. Whole 'nutha set of issues.)

A good AT makes a car quicker. Period. A good AT can make a car more efficient. Period. A good AT makes almost every U.S. car worth more. Period. About the only things a good AT can't make a car is lighter and simpler -- and that said, reliability for ATs is light years beyond where it was even 10, 15 years ago. Remember when power window switches were seen as unreliable? What happened to the good ol' fashioned window crank?

Disclosure: I spent a good chunk of my later childhood in Europe and have owned nothing but manual vehicles -- even the one SUV I owned was a stick -- until recently. In a car like my 228i, I don't miss it one bit. In fact, even in a car like a Fiat 500 Sport (I drove one from Texas to the Bay Area, on a 'scenic route' with plenty of twisties, late last year), I didn't miss it. You bond with a car in a different way with a manual-mode auto, which is just a better transmission for the vast, vast majority of contemporary cars once you learn how to operate it and appreciate it.

Are there cars out there that are likely better with a manual? Sure. IMHO, no new BMW is among them.

I agree with you for the most part. It think that you're response should be directed to darlx, not to me. Maybe the end of my post gave you the misimpression that I'm pro MTs and against ATs.

As you point out, ATs are already better on some high performance cars (on the 2 series, on Formula 1 cars, ...). Down the road ATs will become ever more capable. The use of MTs will continue to decline. For future electric supercars and cars, I can imagine that there would be no single transmission for the driver to shift. Optimized torque delivery to each wheel, coordinated with dynamic vehicle motion control, will require complex orchestration that only a computer can provide.

[crqflier]

I always love the F1 driver justification for automatics/DCT because we're all in need of that last 10th second advantage in a shift and that last half second 0-60 time. For me (and sounds like for the OP) it's all about enjoying a fun car. So when I get my next fun car, it'll be MT. Not because it's faster (it's not), not because it's advanced tech (it's not), not because it's easier (it's not), not because my HPDE or autox times will go down, but because I can and I it's more enjoyable. When I no longer am able to drive MT or it's not enjoyable, then I'll go auto. OP, try and swap lease or work with the dealer who leased you the auto - maybe they'll be able to move you over without too big of a financial hit. Either way, go get you a 6mfmt!

[wjones14]

A heavy clutch pedal would help the argument about not wanting to drive a manual in traffic every day, but has there ever been a clutch with lighter effort than the M235i clutch? The clutch effort in my Mini is truck-like in comparison. Honestly, the clutch effort is not much more than the gas pedal effort in the BMW!

Given the light clutch and the hill-hold assist, this would be a pretty simple car to learn to drive stick with (for those on the fence about teaching their spouse).

[Pyewacket69]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

This. I mean, c'mon: the hardest-core race cars on the planet -- Formula One cars -- have what are essentially automatics in manual mode. So do the hardest-core supercars on the planet. That said, manuals provide for certain 'specialty' racing to exist -- drifting comes immediately to mind. (I won't bring up NASCAR. Whole 'nutha set of issues.)

A good AT makes a car quicker. Period. A good AT can make a car more efficient. Period. A good AT makes almost every U.S. car worth more. Period. About the only things a good AT can't make a car is lighter and simpler -- and that said, reliability for ATs is light years beyond where it was even 10, 15 years ago. Remember when power window switches were seen as unreliable? What happened to the good ol' fashioned window crank?

Disclosure: I spent a good chunk of my later childhood in Europe and have owned nothing but manual vehicles -- even the one SUV I owned was a stick -- until recently. In a car like my 228i, I don't miss it one bit. In fact, even in a car like a Fiat 500 Sport (I drove one from Texas to the Bay Area, on a 'scenic route' with plenty of twisties, late last year), I didn't miss it. You bond with a car in a different way with a manual-mode auto, which is just a better transmission for the vast, vast majority of contemporary cars once you learn how to operate it and appreciate it.

Are there cars out there that are likely better with a manual? Sure. IMHO, no new BMW is among them.

I got a manual in my 235 simply because I wanted one. It's not a daily driver, and I have a couple of other vehicles that do have automatics... One of which IS my daily driver.

I bought this vehicle for enjoyment, not for basic transportation, and I recognize how fortunate I am in being able to have the luxury to do so.

Regarding the satisfaction "index", there's always a little of "the grass is always greener" going on. Very few satisfaction indexes hit and stay at 100%.

Regarding the hand crank windows comment, when I bought my daughter her first car (the basic VW Beetle GL model) she was a junior in high school. It had hand crank windows.

She had friends that, when they rode in it the first time, didn't know how to roll the windows down, and a few of them actually thought hand crank windows were an extra-price option.

Go figure. Indeed... Time and technology moves on.

Just a side-note... I'm old enough to remember using the first non-hand crank windows that showed up in the 1940-50's model Cadillacs. They were hydraulic units.

There's a good reason they're electrically operated now.

[mfourn20]

Want to trade? I've got a manual m sport 228i lease in RI. I'm weird, I just feel bad that my wife can't drive the car. I imagine your payment would go down quite a bit!

[IDBMW]

The M235i is my sixth BMW and all have been MT. I will keep buying MT BMW’s as long as I can order one. I just like the engagement of the MT.
When I went to sell my 135i with MT it sold within 24 hours. The guy that bought it said he had been looking for a 135i with MT but they were hard to come by. He paid me full asking price for the car.

[angler]

Originally Posted by BarryJI

I'm sorry but "slushbox" is such a foolish way to describe the 8AT and insults the engineers who made it and the discriminating customers who chose it. Try and be a little more respectful towards both.

Respectful is buying a 6mt instead of a "slushbox".

[silverado]

Originally Posted by angler

Respectful is buying a 6mt instead of a "slushbox".

I'm sorry, but this is not helpful and can do nothing but instigate a flame war. Can we please stop this pointless line of "discussion".

[silverado]

Originally Posted by mfourn20

Want to trade? I've got a manual m sport 228i lease in RI. I'm weird, I just feel bad that my wife can't drive the car. I imagine your payment would go down quite a bit!

Thanks for the offer, but I respectfully decline because I don't think it would be a fair trade.

[silverado]

Originally Posted by crqflier

I always love the F1 driver justification for automatics/DCT because we're all in need of that last 10th second advantage in a shift and that last half second 0-60 time. For me (and sounds like for the OP) it's all about enjoying a fun car. So when I get my next fun car, it'll be MT. Not because it's faster (it's not), not because it's advanced tech (it's not), not because it's easier (it's not), not because my HPDE or autox times will go down, but because I can and I it's more enjoyable. When I no longer am able to drive MT or it's not enjoyable, then I'll go auto. OP, try and swap lease or work with the dealer who leased you the auto - maybe they'll be able to move you over without too big of a financial hit. Either way, go get you a 6mfmt!

Thank you for the suggestions. My problem is that I ordered just the car I want, I thought (m235i, EB, Oyster), and it looks gorgeous. The only problem is the gearbox. I would have to find a pretty similar car as I am set on the colors and the power. Given how rare this color combination is, I think my only way to a replacement car is likely to be another car order. Hard to imagine the dealer would be inclined to give me a good deal for a fresh car order.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

This. I mean, c'mon: the hardest-core race cars on the planet -- Formula One cars -- have what are essentially automatics in manual mode. So do the hardest-core supercars on the planet. That said, manuals provide for certain 'specialty' racing to exist -- drifting comes immediately to mind. (I won't bring up NASCAR. Whole 'nutha set of issues.)

A good AT makes a car quicker. Period. A good AT can make a car more efficient. Period. A good AT makes almost every U.S. car worth more. Period. About the only things a good AT can't make a car is lighter and simpler -- and that said, reliability for ATs is light years beyond where it was even 10, 15 years ago. Remember when power window switches were seen as unreliable? What happened to the good ol' fashioned window crank?

Disclosure: I spent a good chunk of my later childhood in Europe and have owned nothing but manual vehicles -- even the one SUV I owned was a stick -- until recently. In a car like my 228i, I don't miss it one bit. In fact, even in a car like a Fiat 500 Sport (I drove one from Texas to the Bay Area, on a 'scenic route' with plenty of twisties, late last year), I didn't miss it. You bond with a car in a different way with a manual-mode auto, which is just a better transmission for the vast, vast majority of contemporary cars once you learn how to operate it and appreciate it.

Are there cars out there that are likely better with a manual? Sure. IMHO, no new BMW is among them.

For some of us, none of the benefits you cite are relevant and "better" is a subjective relative term. Your argument is clearly applicable to you and others who share your point of view, and inapplicable to the rest of us who value a higher degree of physical and mental involvement represented by the third pedal and more active right arm. (In re-reading this, it could be interpreted as a snide comment about being smarter...it's not meant that way...it's meant to mean higher neurological stimulation and involvement....constantly more to have to do...which is somehow a pleasing effect.)

[BarryJI]

Originally Posted by angler

Respectful is buying a 6mt instead of a "slushbox".

Generally people are respectful of each other's choices and opinions on this forum; see the thread dedicated to the subject of transmission choice for the perfect example of this. Do you really have to be the exception to this rule, angler? It's childish and obnoxious.

[mfourn20]

Originally Posted by silverado

Thanks for the offer, but I respectfully decline because I don't think it would be a fair trade.

I imagine your payment would go down quite a bit...

[silverado]

Originally Posted by mfourn20

I imagine your payment would go down quite a bit...

Yes, but mine is relatively low too because of the trade-in and security deposits

[opfreak]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

For some of us, none of the benefits you cite are relevant and "better" is a subjective relative term. Your argument is clearly applicable to you and others who share your point of view, and inapplicable to the rest of us who value a higher degree of physical and mental involvement represented by the third pedal and more active right arm.

ahh so now you play them I'm smarter then you card.

[mfourn20]

I have to agree with you though. I drove both the manual, and auto versions of the car. I was bored by the auto. The third pedal may be slower, but playing the clutch is fun.

I just drove my friend's 135 with the DSG, and he drove my 228 with the manual, the dsg was effortlessly quick...it felt like cheating. After driving, he wanted my 228, and I wanted his 135 (had it had a black interior that is..he had the oyster which I don't like)

This is a little weird..but the thing I didn't like most about the auto in the 2 series, is the HUGE piece of plastic that surrounds the gearshift...it just looks cheap in my opinion...cosmetically I HATED it.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by opfreak

ahh so now you play them I'm smarter then you card.

No, not meant that way...I just edited the post when I realized how it might sound. It's meant to address the pleasure some get from having to be more active all the time, which a manual requires and an automatic does not. Similar to some who get off on certain activities or sports to get their neurotransmitters flowing and light up their PET scans. For some here, having all four limbs in constant action has that effect, which is not smarter or less, better or worse...just different, and why the two groups will never feel the other's feeling regardless of facts about performance and fuel economy. Sorry for the vague writing the first time.

[angler]

Originally Posted by BarryJI

Generally people are respectful of each other's choices and opinions on this forum; see the thread dedicated to the subject of transmission choice for the perfect example of this. Do you really have to be the exception to this rule, angler? It's childish and obnoxious.

Didn't mean to offend you. I was joking with you sorry you didn't appreciate my humor.

[ocN55]

Unless you drive for money, MT is the way to go

Forget that auto is faster, listen to your heart