[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by pjohns21

If the frame is somehow bent that may be a different story altogether.

Originally Posted by alexc93

I agree, frame damage, the car will likely never drive quite how it should.

Good to realize this isn't a concern with the 2 Series, or most modern vehicles (other than pickup trucks and some large Utility Vehicles). There is no frame. These cars have unitized body construction. Floor pans can be a concern, however.

[pjohns21]

Originally Posted by alexc93

It is a mass produced 2 series we are talking about here...not a Pagani Huayra.

I have been in 2 accidents. One in my old 135i and one in my current m235i...granted neither were mechanically damaged. However, the "aerodynamics" or whatever mumbojumbo you were talking about were not affected at all, and I'm sorry but theres no way anyone would be able to drive it and say "oh must have been in an accident, the aerodynamics are SLIGHTLY off from a factory m235i..." Come on now, thats a bit ridiculous of a claim to make, especially when all parts are replaced with OEM BMW parts, at a certified reputable high end repair shop.

I agree, I would much rather a machine/robot reassemble my car (and I agree they are better and more precise), but that's not possible after an unfortunate accident such as OP's which is quite a significant amount of cosmetic damage from what we see, and no a human may not be able to put the car back together EXACTLY as it came from factory, but i'm confident that any good (and I say good meaning, the top end) repair shop can get my car back to condition pretty damn close to how it was before, and 99% of people wont be able to tell the difference without breaking out a paint meter etc.

I wasn't trying to start a forum debate but simply expressing my opinion that the majority of people have some theory that cars are automatically dead forever after a cosmetic accident, which is completely false. I agree, frame damage, the car will likely never drive quite how it should. But simple cosmetics, and simple mechanics, can and are repaired all the time exactly how they should be. When I say simple mechanics I mean things like suspension components i.e. wishbones, struts, etc. which are simple bolt on, bolt off parts. An alignment is also then done on a machine and can be put back to the exact same specs as a factory alignment...

Why are you on a car enthusiast forum, let alone one for a brand that makes some of the best vehicles on the planet? The collision center does not mass produce BMW 2 series', they repair cars of all makes and models. One has to wonder how well these cars are being put back together with folks rolling in 60k a year and possessing no academic degree(s). Not to offend anyone out there, but let's think and comment critically about these repair processes.

[pjohns21]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

Good to realize this isn't a concern with the 2 Series, or most modern vehicles (other than pickup trucks and some large Utility Vehicles). There is no frame. These cars have unitized body construction. Floor pans can be a concern, however.

I have a F30 that slid into a curb with one of the rear wheels... it cannot be aligned to factory specifications because of the damage that was repaired and apparently not repaired. Unibody construction does not mean that a vehicle can't have damage that is beyond repairable to manufacturer specifications. Many times the repairs are done as best as possible because the average driver probably won't notice.

[moldcad]

Originally Posted by pjohns21

I disagree. I didn't say it was a dud. Putting new, used, or refurbished parts on a car alongside parts that have been broken in together since the car was put together at the factory means it will not perform the same at the limit. I would venture to say the car won't even have the same drag coefficient before and after the repairs are made on this car. These cars are not repaired in the way they were assembled at the factory- they're put back together mostly by hand. Computers, machines, and robots are better at manufacturing than humans are. To an average driver, one that never pushes the car past 3/10ths of its ability, MAY not notice a difference in the way the car drives after the repairs. I'm not saying junk the car but if the dude has the means to step up to an M2, why not? Try to get out of the lease or have someone take over the lease, depending on the laws and rules of where you're at and if in fact the car was leased. Suspension damage = mechanical damage.

Firstly - glad nobody was hurt. Secondly - sorry for the OP the car looked like on the photo. Thirdly - all the talk about it never going to "drive or ride" like before is bullshit, provided of course no structural damage has been inflicted, and it will be repaired strictly to BMW standards (best if by BMW authorized repair center).

My wife has recently a hit with our Golf R; just take a look at it right after the accident and on the service lot, awaiting parts needed for repair. All I can tell you 2 weeks later it is like new - it looks, drives and handles like before the hit (and I drive it often at 9/10 of its limits, which are high for a make 7 Golf R)... SO, look out for the best OP - this sort of damage is repairable!

[pjohns21]

Originally Posted by moldcad

Firstly - glad nobody was hurt. Secondly - sorry for the OP the car looked like on the photo. Thirdly - all the talk about it never going to "drive or ride" like before is bullshit, provided of course no structural damage has been inflicted, and it will be repaired strictly to BMW standards (best if by BMW authorized repair center).

My wife has recently a hit with our Golf R; just take a look at it right after the accident and on the service lot, awaiting parts needed for repair. All I can tell you 2 weeks later it is like new - it looks, drives and handles like before the hit (and I drive it often at 9/10 of its limits, which are high for a make 7 Golf R)... SO, look out for the best OP - this sort of damage is repairable!

So, you've tested it in a wind tunnel? You've tested it on the skid pad? How many seconds does it take to get to 60, 100, and 155mph? How many feet does it take to hit 0mph from 60? How long will the motor ultimately last? How well were the impact structures repaired? I'm not being ridiculous- I still drive my 3 series that was repaired twice at a collision center. I am saying that if the repaired car and a brand new car (from the factory) were compared head to head with instrumented road tests and NHTSA/IIHS tests, there would be a world of difference between the two.

[moldcad]

Originally Posted by pjohns21

So, you've tested it in a wind tunnel? You've tested it on the skid pad? How many seconds does it take to get to 60, 100, and 155mph? How many feet does it take to hit 0mph from 60? How long will the motor ultimately last? How well were the impact structures repaired? I'm not being ridiculous- I still drive my 3 series that was repaired twice at a collision center. I am saying that if the repaired car and a brand new car (from the factory) were compared head to head with instrumented road tests and NHTSA/IIHS tests, there would be a world of difference between the two.

No I haven't "tested" it apart from driving it as before, as I said at its limit. Acceleration is the same, top speed is the same, there is no single vibration or strange noises... No offense, but you're being paranoid - or your accidents were more serious, or the cars weren't repaired up to the standards, or all of that.

[pjohns21]

Originally Posted by moldcad

No I haven't "tested" it apart from driving it as before, as I said at its limit. Acceleration is the same, top speed is the same, there is no single vibration or strange noises... No offense, but you're being paranoid - or your accidents were more serious, or the cars weren't repaired up to the standards, or all of that.

There's no paranoia, it's just that things like this matter to enthusiasts. To the average Joe, who drives a Honda, they don't. This is why I'm perplexed at everyone on this forum who baselessly state that the car will be ok and he shouldn't worry. For me, when I spend 50k on a car, I expect it to be better than "ok." Leave the acceptance of mediocrity to the people who state that a Corolla is good enough for them.

[moldcad]

Man, if - apart from plastics - only the bonnet was replace, what structural damage might have happened to my R?!! And I'm also an enthusiast like you - but 61 years old and with 45 years of driving experience.

As to the OP's car, the damage certainly bigger - but I bet replacing the door and the right front quarter will be the most important things to do; those are not connected to the structure shell of the car stiffly, so I would still encourage him the car will be OK.d

[pjohns21]

Originally Posted by moldcad

Man, if - apart from plastics - only the bonnet was replace, what structural damage might have happened to my R?!! And I'm also an enthusiast like you - but 61 years old and with 45 years of driving experience.

As to the OP's car, the damage certainly bigger - but I bet replacing the door and the right front quarter will be the most important things to do; those are not connected to the structure shell of the car stiffly, so I would still encourage him the car will be OK.d

I would not want someone installing my airbags and impact foam who does so on thousands of other models, especially with the Takata thing going on. I'm 27, on my 6th car and 12th life. I've never had a car repaired as well as it was before the incident, nor have I tested a car's safety afterwards. They were all leases and I moved on. I have driven thousands of miles in cars repaired after a collision, but never have they felt the same nor did I feel as confident in their ability to protect me in another major collision. This is why I cringe when people hand down their 10+ year old cars to their children- utter stupidity and cheapness.

[Nahlem]

Man sucks to see car being damaged so badly, Hope your ok!

My main worries here would be

1. B-Pillar is it damaged in anyway? Check for small cracks ruptures or anything that can indicate damage there. Here in Sweden a car damaged at the B-Pillar then it is written off and scrapped due to not filling safety measures anymore.

2. Check for cracks in the paint on the A-Pillar also to ensure that it hasn't been bent in anyway if so then it might be dangerous to drive it due to it not filling safety measures anymore.

3. Checking under the car looking if any of the platforms massive beams have been bent could also call of an imidiet scraping of the car.

4. Check for wheel aliment issues that could further the damage after its been repaired.

[moldcad]

Originally Posted by pjohns21

I would not want someone installing my airbags and impact foam who does so on thousands of other models, especially with the Takata thing going on. I'm 27, on my 6th car and 12th life. I've never had a car repaired as well as it was before the incident, nor have I tested a car's safety afterwards. They were all leases and I moved on. I have driven thousands of miles in cars repaired after a collision, but never have they felt the same nor did I feel as confident in their ability to protect me in another major collision. This is why I cringe when people hand down their 10+ year old cars to their children- utter stupidity and cheapness.

Most of what you're saying is valid and true, but simply doesn't apply here - I'm out of this discussion. Cheers.

[pjohns21]

Originally Posted by moldcad

Most of what you're saying is valid and true, but simply doesn't apply here - I'm out of this discussion. Cheers.

It applies because the dude covets a M2. He should go for it. The M235i is not a M car, sorry. In the US, you might lose $1,000 doing a lease transfer or $5,000 getting out of his M235i that is financed... He will have to pay full price or more for a M2 of course, but who wouldn't at this point in the game... (and assuming he has the financial means to do so).

[alexc93]

Originally Posted by pjohns21

Why are you on a car enthusiast forum, let alone one for a brand that makes some of the best vehicles on the planet? The collision center does not mass produce BMW 2 series', they repair cars of all makes and models. One has to wonder how well these cars are being put back together with folks rolling in 60k a year and possessing no academic degree(s). Not to offend anyone out there, but let's think and comment critically about these repair processes.

Because I'm a car enthusiast..

An academic degree has nothing to do with ability to repair a car to standards set by BMW. My Bachelors in Finance doesn't make me anywhere near as qualified as some people I know who work in the auto industry to do what they do...so your point there is completely null.

I never once said a collision center mass produces BMW 2 series? I stated that BMW mass produce these cars, and it is not something that should be taken off the road because of a minor accident; which is how you are acting.

I'm out of the discussion (after reading further down the page) I think you are paranoid also.

Have a good one!

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by pjohns21

Unibody construction does not mean that a vehicle can't have damage that is beyond repairable to manufacturer specifications.

Never said otherwise, but the damage potential is not to a frame, a significant distinction. In fact, Saab used to routinely specify that any floor pan damage could not be repaired and the vehicle was to be totaled.

[pjohns21]

Originally Posted by alexc93

Because I'm a car enthusiast..

An academic degree has nothing to do with ability to repair a car to standards set by BMW. My Bachelors in Finance doesn't make me anywhere near as qualified as some people I know who work in the auto industry to do what they do...so your point there is completely null.

I never once said a collision center mass produces BMW 2 series? I stated that BMW mass produce these cars, and it is not something that should be taken off the road because of a minor accident; which is how you are acting.

I'm out of the discussion (after reading further down the page) I think you are paranoid also.

Have a good one!

I never said to junk the car. I said or meant to suggest that if there is suspension damage anyone in tune with their car's driving dynamics (as any BMW owner should be) he/she will probably notice a difference with driving after the repairs are made.

[alexc93]

Originally Posted by pjohns21

I never said to junk the car. I said or meant to suggest that if there is suspension damage anyone in tune with their car's driving dynamics (as any BMW owner should be) he/she will probably notice a difference with driving after the repairs are made.

Probably not, if repaired properly, and aligned properly.

[Luftwaffe1O1]

Originally Posted by pjohns21

There's no paranoia, it's just that things like this matter to enthusiasts. To the average Joe, who drives a Honda, they don't. This is why I'm perplexed at everyone on this forum who baselessly state that the car will be ok and he shouldn't worry. For me, when I spend 50k on a car, I expect it to be better than "ok." Leave the acceptance of mediocrity to the people who state that a Corolla is good enough for them.

And how many accidents have you been in?

Not all repairs are equal, firstly, and second, by your logic, the moment you have to do maintenance on a car and replace certain parts, its no longer the same so time to toss it?

Because that's basically what your argument boils down to, so the generations of enthusiasts who have worked on their own cars, swapped parts out, etc, are just "damaging" the car down the line whenever new parts are put in place?

Come on... even on race cars they replace components etc.

As for quality of repairs, if you take it to a good shop who specializes in the car you are having repaired, you don't really have anything to worry about. A lot of them even have tighter tolerances than the factory, because it is not being mass produced, your car is being worked on by hand.

There is this myth that perpetuates among people that once a car has been in an accident, that it will never be as good again, and this is simply not true. You can come up with all the little arguments you want, but its plainly wrong. By the same logic, the very first time you start replacing things on your car, even as part of the regular maintenance plan and warranty, it is basically the same effect.

My old M3 got the accordion treatment when I got rear ended by a pickup, and pushed into a lexus suv. 17k and almost 2 months later the car was back to driving condition. I had these exact same concerns back then, and the shop was kind enough to provide detailed pictures of the car in progress every step of the way.

And these guys got their start restoring gullwing benzes back in the day. Most of the other cars on their racks were much nicer than my M3 back then.

That is to say, would I be comfortable with the car being repaired at some insurance recommended center that works on all cars, and handles a crap ton like it is a factory? No, that's why you can pick where you take it (at least in California).


For reference, my 235i has already had its front wheel bearings replaced, the entire Nav/entertainment computer and screen due to failures. Sorry, but you are flat out wrong in your assessment, if it is done by a good shop, the car can be the same if not better than when it was new.

[snaketh]

Originally Posted by pjohns21

I would not want someone installing my airbags and impact foam who does so on thousands of other models, especially with the Takata thing going on. I'm 27, on my 6th car and 12th life. I've never had a car repaired as well as it was before the incident, nor have I tested a car's safety afterwards. They were all leases and I moved on. I have driven thousands of miles in cars repaired after a collision, but never have they felt the same nor did I feel as confident in their ability to protect me in another major collision. This is why I cringe when people hand down their 10+ year old cars to their children- utter stupidity and cheapness.

The comment you made about the people working in the body shops not having degrees and 'only' pulling in 60k a year was conceited and rude. Bodywork is a skilled trade that takes years to perfect. The high end collision centers are excellent and there are some very skilled workers there.

It's just a car, not a piece of fine china.

[dtcoff]

Update on the damage and repair.

It's at one of the few BMW accredited repairers in Sydney. They follow a BMW defined schedule for replacing certain items if any damage in the area. The key part for my damage is the door hinge panel that connects to the A pillar. They will replace the hinge panel, door, lower skirt, front quarter panel, front bumper, front wheel and tyre and all suspension and steering links. They don't stuff around, just replace everything in the area. Only problem is the time, as the hinge panel is ex Germany with a few weeks delay.

Helps that I'm also the VP of the BMW Club here and the repairer is a club sponsor. Also have a X5 3.0d as a loaner whilst mine is off the road.

[pjohns21]

Originally Posted by Luftwaffe1O1

And how many accidents have you been in?

Not all repairs are equal, firstly, and second, by your logic, the moment you have to do maintenance on a car and replace certain parts, its no longer the same so time to toss it?

Because that's basically what your argument boils down to, so the generations of enthusiasts who have worked on their own cars, swapped parts out, etc, are just "damaging" the car down the line whenever new parts are put in place?

Come on... even on race cars they replace components etc.

As for quality of repairs, if you take it to a good shop who specializes in the car you are having repaired, you don't really have anything to worry about. A lot of them even have tighter tolerances than the factory, because it is not being mass produced, your car is being worked on by hand.

There is this myth that perpetuates among people that once a car has been in an accident, that it will never be as good again, and this is simply not true. You can come up with all the little arguments you want, but its plainly wrong. By the same logic, the very first time you start replacing things on your car, even as part of the regular maintenance plan and warranty, it is basically the same effect.

My old M3 got the accordion treatment when I got rear ended by a pickup, and pushed into a lexus suv. 17k and almost 2 months later the car was back to driving condition. I had these exact same concerns back then, and the shop was kind enough to provide detailed pictures of the car in progress every step of the way.

And these guys got their start restoring gullwing benzes back in the day. Most of the other cars on their racks were much nicer than my M3 back then.

That is to say, would I be comfortable with the car being repaired at some insurance recommended center that works on all cars, and handles a crap ton like it is a factory? No, that's why you can pick where you take it (at least in California).


For reference, my 235i has already had its front wheel bearings replaced, the entire Nav/entertainment computer and screen due to failures. Sorry, but you are flat out wrong in your assessment, if it is done by a good shop, the car can be the same if not better than when it was new.

I have been in more collisions that I can count fingers on my hands as a child, teenager, and adult, both as a passenger and a driver. Collision centers are different than BMW service centers which is where you have taken your vehicle and had maintenance performed, presumably. Front wheel bearings and infotainment screens do not constitute collision repairs. There is no comparison to a collision center and the way the cars are put together in the factory in terms of quality. Also, I have never had a perfect realignment across the 6 cars I have owned in my lifetime. I lease my cars new and expect them to drive as NEW, save for the brakes and tires, up to that 3yr/30,000 mile mark. My repair experiences have resulted in never having a car drive the same after significant collision repairs. To the average driver, most won't notice the difference.

[pjohns21]

Originally Posted by snaketh

The comment you made about the people working in the body shops not having degrees and 'only' pulling in 60k a year was conceited and rude. Bodywork is a skilled trade that takes years to perfect. The high end collision centers are excellent and there are some very skilled workers there.

It's just a car, not a piece of fine china.

I would agree and just like the rest of America, many collision centers are large corporations which hire those will fewer years of experience as a means to pay them less and increase profits. Fewer and fewer independent collision centers are able to compete with the likes of Gerber, Caliber, CARSTAR, and AutoNation (collision centers). It's not conceited and rude, a college education teaches critical thinking skills that are invaluable over the course of a lifetime to someone's career or occupation, whatever it may be. It's more important than a piece of fine China because driving a car is the most dangerous thing people do on a daily basis in America. I would want to have one of the best and safest tools to use in order to perform such a hazardous task day after day. So keep your older cars with less safety features as it is, and then throw into the mix that the front, back, and the sides were potentially put back together mainly by hand... Yes, I am unwilling to take the risk, sorry.

[pjohns21]

Originally Posted by dtcoff

Update on the damage and repair.

It's at one of the few BMW accredited repairers in Sydney. They follow a BMW defined schedule for replacing certain items if any damage in the area. The key part for my damage is the door hinge panel that connects to the A pillar. They will replace the hinge panel, door, lower skirt, front quarter panel, front bumper, front wheel and tyre and all suspension and steering links. They don't stuff around, just replace everything in the area. Only problem is the time, as the hinge panel is ex Germany with a few weeks delay.

Helps that I'm also the VP of the BMW Club here and the repairer is a club sponsor. Also have a X5 3.0d as a loaner whilst mine is off the road.

Good to hear, did you order the M2? Let's hope you have a skilled tech aligning it. The best alignment I could get on my BMW in the Chicagoland area was from Firestone (Complete Auto Care) after multiple attempts at a BMW dealership service center, go figure.