[bradleyland]

Threads like this really bring out the wingnuts. There's so much crazy talk in here it hurts my brain.

1) The E30 M3 with an S14 engine was a dream of a car. Unfortunately, it's never coming back. Repeat that aloud: The E30 M3 is never coming back. The E30 M3 weighed just over 2800 lbs. Between airbags, side-impact protection, crumple zones, passenger safety zones, power electric seats, sound deadening, dual-zone climate control systems, and infotainment systems with huge screens and computers to drive them, we won't see the south side of 3000 lbs out of a BMW until they start using composites *heavily*. That's a ways off, so don't count on it for the M2.

Having said that, if you want a 2800-2900 lb sporty car powered by a naturally aspirated four-cylinder, you can get one today! It's called a Subaru BRZ or Scion FRS. Go drive one and get back to us. I have a feeling you'll still be waiting for the M2. It's really easy to wax nostalgic when history is so distant. The E30 M3 was an incredible car in its day, but

2) Another thing that's gone for good is the small displacement, high-revving, naturally aspirated engine. Even Porsche is said to be considering a turbo 4 for the Caymen/Boxter on the high end. In order to meet corporate fleet fuel economy standards, auto makers are going to have to sell *more* turbocharged cars, not less.

If you find yourself wishing for some magical 120 HP/liter, naturally aspirated wonder-engine, then go ahead and cry yourself to sleep now. You have a much better chance of dreaming about one than you do seeing one in the M2. Sorry to be such a dream-smasher, but you sound like a crazy old man spouting about the good ol' days of 8k RPM redlines. Just stop. They're gone. We're all gonna miss them.

[Ash83]

BMW made hard with putting an I6 in the new M3/4 I have a feeling the M2 will not have an I6. I would guess a TTI4 with ~355HP

[Black Flagged]

S55

[havand]

Originally Posted by Malbolge

Loving the irony of the fact that if most people are offered an E30 here they would love it and praise the bejesus out of how original it true BMW it is. And yet ... faced with a new small BMW with I4 they get all up in arms and say NOOOO it must be I6 or I am buying an Audi lalallalalala.

I wouldn't mind a NA 4. But a turbo 4 making big power has turbo lag written all over it, which is contrary to the original point of M.

And everyone that says turbo lag is gone is full of crap. MUCH better than it used to be, but nowhere near a good NA engine. It feels like a rising wave now instead of an instant jolt.

[Tåst]

Higher engine displacement(3.0L I6) and less turbo over pressure = little lag and more torque on low rpm´s. Low engine displacement(2.0L I4) and more turbo pressure=more lag and less torque.

Intresting to see how laggy is AMG A45 2.0l turbo engine.

[mkoesel]

If (and this is still a big if) BMW is planning to use electrically assisted turbocharging for the S55, then we could possibly expect the same treatment for an S20 or S48. This would address the lag concerns.

[burnsniper]

I am guessing the M2 will be along the lines of the 1M. It will have an N55 engine with a unique tune and be rated at ~350 hp (but will probably output 380-400hp). It will also feature the suspension, steering column, and differential from the M4 and chassis reinforcement in the 2 series body.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by burnsniper

I am guessing the M2 will be along the lines of the 1M. It will have an N55 engine...

The 1M used the N54 because it was the only engine available on the timeline they were working within. The project was approved late in the E8x lifecycle and needed to be brought to market in two years or so. The M2 will enjoy a normal development cycle and will almost surely receive an M-specific engine. That is to say that you can bet on either S20, S48, S55 or S68.

[Auto1234]

350 + hp 6 cylinder please bmw. What is the suggested timeframe?

[Hoosiers]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

Threads like this really bring out the wingnuts. There's so much crazy talk in here it hurts my brain.

1) The E30 M3 with an S14 engine was a dream of a car. Unfortunately, it's never coming back. Repeat that aloud: The E30 M3 is never coming back. The E30 M3 weighed just over 2800 lbs. Between airbags, side-impact protection, crumple zones, passenger safety zones, power electric seats, sound deadening, dual-zone climate control systems, and infotainment systems with huge screens and computers to drive them, we won't see the south side of 3000 lbs out of a BMW until they start using composites *heavily*. That's a ways off, so don't count on it for the M2.

Having said that, if you want a 2800-2900 lb sporty car powered by a naturally aspirated four-cylinder, you can get one today! It's called a Subaru BRZ or Scion FRS. Go drive one and get back to us. I have a feeling you'll still be waiting for the M2. It's really easy to wax nostalgic when history is so distant. The E30 M3 was an incredible car in its day, but

2) Another thing that's gone for good is the small displacement, high-revving, naturally aspirated engine. Even Porsche is said to be considering a turbo 4 for the Caymen/Boxter on the high end. In order to meet corporate fleet fuel economy standards, auto makers are going to have to sell *more* turbocharged cars, not less.

If you find yourself wishing for some magical 120 HP/liter, naturally aspirated wonder-engine, then go ahead and cry yourself to sleep now. You have a much better chance of dreaming about one than you do seeing one in the M2. Sorry to be such a dream-smasher, but you sound like a crazy old man spouting about the good ol' days of 8k RPM redlines. Just stop. They're gone. We're all gonna miss them.

At first I thought you were referring to only BMW giving up on the high revving NA engines, but you brought up Porsche. You say the "good ol' days of 8k RPM" is over. Porsche disagrees. See 2014 GT3 9,000 RPM NA 3.8.

[burnsniper]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

The 1M used the N54 because it was the only engine available on the timeline they were working within. The project was approved late in the E8x lifecycle and needed to be brought to market in two years or so. The M2 will enjoy a normal development cycle and will almost surely receive an M-specific engine. That is to say that you can bet on either S20, S48, S55 or S68.

While I understand the limited timeline for the 1M, I think an a tuned N55 is the only engine that makes sense given the future line up:

M235i - 315 hp I6 N55
M3/4 - 450 hp I6 S55

It just doesn't make sense from a marketing standpoint to slot an I4 between the N55 M235i and the M3/4 S55. Also, I don't believe there is a financial case to be made for developing a third turbo charged I6 engine for one car (design, multiple country emissions testing and certification, etc.). All M cars are relatively small volume cars.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by burnsniper

While I understand the limited timeline for the 1M, I think an a tuned N55 is the only engine that makes sense given the future line up:

M235i - 315 hp I6 N55
M3/4 - 450 hp I6 S55

It just doesn't make sense from a marketing standpoint to slot an I4 between the N55 M235i and the M3/4 S55. Also, I don't believe there is a financial case to be made for developing a third turbo charged I6 engine for one car (design, multiple country emissions testing and certification, etc.). All M cars are relatively small volume cars.

I mostly agree, but could see a case for an M2 being a lighter, non F8x based car that could get by with a 320-340 hp version of the N20. If they made it 100-200 pounds lighter than the M235i it would potentially be faster and better handling.

Or you could just toss in a detuned version of the S55 and call it a day.

[Mangler]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

I'd love an E30 M3, but that's not the same thing as an M2 with a four cylinder. The E30 M3 was a much, much lighter car than we'll see with the M2. The only way we're getting back to E30 weight ranges is when composites become cheap enough to use in mid-range sports cars. That could be a ways off, and by then, they'll be electric anyway.

If we get an I4 in the M2, it will be turbocharged to some ridiculous level. I bought a 135i instead of an Evo or STi primarily because of the difference in character. The N54/N55 is much more linear in its power delivery. The S14 was well regarded for its linear delivery as well.

In contrast, a 2.0L I4 turbocharged to 300 HP is always going to struggle in the low RPM range unless you fit some exotic solution like a variable geometry turbo or some sort of hybrid-electric gizmo. It's a matter of physics.

With the M235i having a turbo I6, I just can't see BMW putting an I4 in the M2. There's just too much risk to perception from buyers.

I just drove the new 328i today and I have to say, that car with a tune would be perfect daily driver.

It's faster than my n54 335i stock for stock.

The gearing in the new tranny is what makes the difference. You might be surprised if you ran the numbers on acceleration of the new 328i vs the s14b23. That 328 weighs a hell of a lot more but also has a hell of a lot more torque <4500 rpm where the s14 can finally get out if its own way.

I've owned all the cars listed here. There are classics that are special and new cars that are special. You can't compare Jim Brown to Adrian Petersen. Same position different era.

The ///M2 will be special. The only ///M car that wasn't was our E36 332is Mtechnik.

T

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by burnsniper

While I understand the limited timeline for the 1M, I think an a tuned N55 is the only engine that makes sense given the future line up:

M235i - 315 hp I6 N55
M3/4 - 450 hp I6 S55

Don't forget:

MY2015+ 335/435/535/640/740/etc: ~340hp hp I6 B68

Also, don't be surprised if the S55 doesn't hit 450hp in non-ZCP form.

It just doesn't make sense from a marketing standpoint to slot an I4 between the N55 M235i and the M3/4 S55.

I'll definitely agree that it might not be the most obvious progression when you look at the lineup, but it will make sense if the M I4 has greater power output and weighs less than the N55. That's not a very tough sell. And before we talk about the relative potential for aftermarket tunes, lets remember just how few people actually modify there cars in the grand scheme of things. That's not a significant piece of the business case, not like weight and efficiency are anyway.

Also, I don't believe there is a financial case to be made for developing a third turbo charged I6 engine for one car (design, multiple country emissions testing and certification, etc.). All M cars are relatively small volume cars.

Based on that reasoning the S55 makes just as much sense as the N55 if not more. And remember, the four cylinder M engine could easily be used in other cars, including potentially as many as half a dozen FWD 1 series M offerings and also a Z2M, perhaps in a lesser state of tune. Certainly those cars could handle more than a 240hp N20 (or 2XXhp B48). Lots of hot hatchlets make that kind of power and more.

Finally, if we are really just trying to leverage economies of scale, then an N63 powered M3/M4/X3M/X4M/etc would make more sense than developing an S55. How about an N74 powered M5/M6/X5M/X6M? It fits in there just fine you know? But there are other concerns that make the I6 the better choice for the midsize Ms and the V8 the better choice for the full size Ms. Same thing applies here for an I4 although those concerns may not be the same (packaging is not an obstacle in this case).

If the M135i/M235i weren't here today (and perhaps we had an "N20S" powered 130iM/230iM coming instead, suppose) there would be little doubt about the chance for a four cylinder M2. My thinking on this is that M Division has some very unique features coming for the M3/M4 that are going to make people think about performance in a completely different light. That's just a hunch. But if I am right, then I think the true potential of a smaller, lighter engine will become a very saleable point for all future M vehicles from that point forward, including the M2.

[M12Power]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Well, sure, 175hp/L+ from a naturally aspirated engine would be ridiculously impressive for a production car. Most purpose built racing engines don't even make that kind of power per liter of displacement. It takes a lot of air moving through a cylinder in a short amount of time to get that much power. Typically that is achieved with extremely high RPM, like a super-bike motor, which usually has a very short stroke. And efficiency takes a big toll when you move that much fuel through the cylinder.

If it were truly that simple of a matter to make big power from production turbocharged engines (which must meet very stringent reliability and efficiency goals), then it would be more commonplace. What AMG has done is really quite impressive for an engine that will be produced in significant volumes.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying what Mercedes/AMG did with the CLA engine is not impressive, and I totally understand the implication of reliability/durability/efficiency. The same argument (albeit for different technical reasons) can be made for a high revving NA engine in regards to reliability/durability/efficiency. That's why you don't see many NA engines revving to 9000 RPM like the ones in the AP1 S2000 or the Italia 458, either.

From a pure engineering/technical standpoint, the fact remains that it's easier to squeeze out more power with forced induction. It's the same reason why a turbo engine is always more efficient than a comparable NA engine stock for stock.

At the height of the last turbo era in F1 in the 80's when they were still allowed to run unrestricted boost, it wasn't unusual to see 1200-1400 bhp (depending on boost) in qualifying trim from only 1.5 liters. That's 800+ bhp/liter. By contrast, the current 2.4 liter NA V8 pumps out approximately 750 bhp, which is only about 313 bhp/liter. Of course you can't compare a race engine to a production engine that needs to last years and thousands of miles with good MPG, but knowing what's possible and what's been done in the racing world, I suppose I do get a bit jaded and not easily impressed...

I personally would still prefer a high-revving NA engine for the M2, but in this day and age of greater fuel efficiency and ever tighter emission regulations, that's most likely a pipedream. Heck, even F1 will be returning to turbo engines starting next year. I have no doubt BMW will put a boosted motor in the M2, but whether it will be an I4 or an I6 remains to be seen.

[burnsniper]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Don't forget:

Based on that reasoning the S55 makes just as much sense as the N55 if not more. And remember, the four cylinder M engine could easily be used in other cars, including potentially as many as half a dozen FWD 1 series M offerings and also a Z2M, perhaps in a lesser state of tune. Certainly those cars could handle more than a 240hp N20 (or 2XXhp B48). Lots of hot hatchlets make that kind of power and more.


Finally, if we are really just trying to leverage economies of scale, then an N63 powered M3/M4/X3M/X4M/etc would make more sense than developing an S55. How about an N74 powered M5/M6/X5M/X6M? It fits in there just fine you know? But there are other concerns that make the I6 the better choice for the midsize Ms and the V8 the better choice for the full size Ms. Same thing applies here for an I4 although those concerns may not be the same (packaging is not an obstacle in this case).

M3 is a halo car - thus they will want to put a "bespoke engine" in it. The S55 is rumored to be heavily based of of the N55.

M5/M6/M6GC/X5M/X6M all have variants of the S63. The S63 is heavily based on the N63 and it is used in 5 different models that essentially spread out the development costs. What other models would a M2 engine be used in except for maybe a M2GC (maybe a Z2M)?

Originally Posted by mkoesel

If the M135i/M235i weren't here today (and perhaps we had an "N20S" powered 130iM/230iM coming instead, suppose) there would be little doubt about the chance for a four cylinder M2. My thinking on this is that M Division has some very unique features coming for the M3/M4 that are going to make people think about performance in a completely different light. That's just a hunch. But if I am right, then I think the true potential of a smaller, lighter engine will become a very saleable point for all future M vehicles from that point forward, including the M2.

The other thing that we need to consider is the BMW is in the process of moving to modular engine blocks based on a 0.5L/cylinder ranging from 1.5L (3 cylinder) to 4.0L (8 cylinder). Of course they could increase the stroke for S versions of the engines rather easily with a different crank/connecting rods. Perhaps the M2 will have the non stroked version and the M3/4 will have the stroked version?

[mkoesel]

From a pure engineering/technical standpoint, the fact remains that it's easier to squeeze out more power with forced induction. It's the same reason why a turbo engine is always more efficient than a comparable NA engine stock for stock.

I don't think that is necessarily true, though I suppose that depends on how you define "comparable" in this case. If you just mean comparable output, I'm sure there are some counter-examples out there. If you are talking about normalizing other things such development costs, materials costs, manufacturing costs, etc. then you might very well be right but I don't know how we could prove that one way or the other. Suffice it to say, though, that a number of manufacturers are trending toward turbocharged engines for a reason, and it more than likely boils down to a cost effective way to improve EPA test results. Not everyone has jumped on board yet though, notably the Japanese manufacturers (in most cases so far - it will change I'm sure).

At the height of the last turbo era in F1 in the 80's when they were still allowed to run unrestricted boost, it wasn't unusual to see 1200-1400 bhp (depending on boost) in qualifying trim from only 1.5 liters. That's 800+ bhp/liter. By contrast, the current 2.4 liter NA V8 pumps out approximately 750 bhp, which is only about 313 bhp/liter.

Yep, and in time we'll see probably see production turbocharged engines eclipse 200hp/L which edge them closer to the 2.5:1 ratio for power per unit of displacement that your numbers above suggest.

Of course you can't compare a race engine to a production engine that needs to last years and thousands of miles with good MPG, but knowing what's possible and what's been done in the racing world, I suppose I do get a bit jaded and not easily impressed...

I understand where you are coming from. I think that BMW's next generation of M engines, and series engine too for that matter, will show impressive power for their weight. That is something that will see more and more emphasis as overall vehicle weights become the target of optimization and begin to drop.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by burnsniper

M3 is a halo car - thus they will want to put a "bespoke engine" in it.

All M cars are halo cars. All M cars have had engines developed by M Division except the 1M with its especially tight development timeframe. I don't think we should expect that this is going to change with the M2.

The S55 is rumored to be heavily based of of the N55.

Right, but it will feature two turbochargers at a minimum. And an innovative intake system.

M5/M6/M6GC/X5M/X6M all have variants of the S63. The S63 is heavily based on the N63 and it is used in 5 different models that essentially spread out the development costs. What other models would a M2 engine be used in except for maybe a M2GC (maybe a Z2M)?

An I4 M engine would be based upon either the N20 or B48 series engine and potentially used in many possible vehicles as I mentioned in my last post.

The other thing that we need to consider is the BMW is in the process of moving to modular engine blocks based on a 0.5L/cylinder ranging from 1.5L (3 cylinder) to 4.0L (8 cylinder). Of course they could increase the stroke for S versions of the engines rather easily with a different crank/connecting rods. Perhaps the M2 will have the non stroked version and the M3/4 will have the stroked version?

Every piece of evidence so far suggests that the S55 will share displacement with the N55 just like the S63 shares displacement with the N63. If the M2 were to get the S55 instead of an M-developed I4, it would simply be a less powerful version of the motor. Changing the displacement for M motors would just add more costs to the equation unnecessarily. With forced induction in the mix, they can achieve more power using a different induction setup, which they need anyway to make more power in the most efficient and durable way. For example, the S63 uses dual twin scrolls instead of dual single scrolls like the N63 does.

[Jadar]

Originally Posted by amdmaxx

Smooth tt inline 6 with 350hp please

I6 all the way. Doesn't make sense that the 1M was an I6 and not the M2, they need to just build on that. Just do a slightly modded n55 or whatever.


Oh god yes please. You and I sir are thinking alike, I6 around 340-360hp .

Oh I can't wait, my lease is up exactly 2 years from now and I will be doing a European delivery on an m2. This m model has me seriously excited and its something I'm really really looking forward to, more so then the M3/4

[Jadar]

Originally Posted by R3DL1N3

TT i6 - 350 horsepower please. A 4 cyl would be right maxed out, leaving little on the bone for tuning etc. he'll for 2 grand the 1m can put out 400+ horsepower and even more torque at the wheels. Why would u want a 4 (or less!) unless the weight was WAY down, say 3k lbs. BMW please stick with your legendary i6!

Yes please stick with the I6 and for Pete's sake keep the weight at the current 135i/1M @ 3200 please

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by Hoosiers

At first I thought you were referring to only BMW giving up on the high revving NA engines, but you brought up Porsche. You say the "good ol' days of 8k RPM" is over. Porsche disagrees. See 2014 GT3 9,000 RPM NA 3.8.

I never said, or even implied, Porsche was giving up on NA engines altogether. I expect that the GT3 will probably be the last Porsche to go forced-induction, but it won't be naturally aspirated for long. It may not go turbo, but Porsche is investing heavily in all sorts of exotic technology that it will eventually start packaging in its road cars.

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by Mangler

I just drove the new 328i today and I have to say, that car with a tune would be perfect daily driver.

It's faster than my n54 335i stock for stock.

The gearing in the new tranny is what makes the difference. You might be surprised if you ran the numbers on acceleration of the new 328i vs the s14b23. That 328 weighs a hell of a lot more but also has a hell of a lot more torque <4500 rpm where the s14 can finally get out if its own way.

I've owned all the cars listed here. There are classics that are special and new cars that are special. You can't compare Jim Brown to Adrian Petersen. Same position different era.

The ///M2 will be special. The only ///M car that wasn't was our E36 332is Mtechnik.

T

I really want to get some seat time in a N20 powered 3-series with a chip. I know they can top 300 whp, but I really question the drivability. I used to be a VW guy, and I knew a handful of people with chipped 1.8T and 2.0T cars that made crazy power, but man, the character was just garbage.

Yes I realize how unfair that comparison is when you consider the dual-inlet geometry turbos and more advanced fuel injection used on modern BMW engines, but there are limits imposed by physics. When you start pushing 300+ HP out of a 2 liter I4, I become deeply suspect. I'd love to be proven wrong, but I've really been looking forward to the M2, so I'm not going to cut them any slack if they do go with the turbo I4. It had better be spectacular, and any hint of a laggy turbo character just isn't going to fly with me.