[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by ketema

so I have been asking around on this subject and here is an excerpt from a response I got from a shop that actually sells DINAN local to me:

"...has the dinantronics and independently dyno'd it before and after to find he lost power with it. 40whp at redline. These cars are too smart to have piggybacks trick them now, they don't care if they run 1 bar or .5 bar as long as their internal torque model is satisfied. They basically have an internal dyno graph that tells the ECU if it's making too much power, if you force boost in it the car will close throttle. If you force timing in it, it will dive rich and change cam angle to limit air going into the cylinders, they're basically on the edge of limp mode all the time with a piggyback. Not just Dinan either but " deleted " a bmw shop here in cali pushes the JB4 stuff and they've admitted that it loses power also. They make the power for one run on the dyno before the car goes in to "OHHHHHHHHH FUCK!" mode. ECU tuning is the only reliable way to get power and bmw has made it a chore to even attempt it. "

To me this makes sense. I want consistent permanent power. I have read and seen on Youtube from Steve DINAN himself that the very concept of a Piggy back is lying to the ECU. He says theirs is better because they adjust more variables but at the end of the day its still lying to the ECU. I can't get any explanation out of Manhart or Tuningwerk (another euro tuner with a modified 2) as to how they get so much claimed power. So the above answer to me makes me want to wait. An ECU that is actually tuned...by its very definition seems better than a piggy back and naturally makes me ask the question: any one out there know how to crack and tune the actual ECU of a M235i, or make a replacement one ?

Sounds like that shop is clueless based on that statement. Find one more experienced and knowledgeable about turbo BMW tuning!

Mike

[ska///235i]

Originally Posted by BD_F22

Most likely honestly, you also have to realize there are alot less Dinan customers than jb4 owners so when you have for example a group of 200 people with Dinan and 2,000 with jb4 the chances of something happening to one of the jb4 cars greatly increases in comparison. The biggest problem too is e9x platform has become so affordable a bunch of young kids are buying them, can't afford the maintenance but yet are still modding them and then they break things they blame the tune and other things.

lol my friend had his e90 335 tuned by dinan (non sport pkg) and he always had prblm (over heating, limp mode, etc) and he kept complaining how BMW is nice but unreliable. I always tell him you cant just tune your car to 400hp without other mods he didnt believe me....I can see alot of this happening to alot of ppl

[AlexGT]

Originally Posted by ketema

so I have been asking around on this subject and here is an excerpt from a response I got from a shop that actually sells DINAN local to me:

"...has the dinantronics and independently dyno'd it before and after to find he lost power with it. 40whp at redline. These cars are too smart to have piggybacks trick them now, they don't care if they run 1 bar or .5 bar as long as their internal torque model is satisfied. They basically have an internal dyno graph that tells the ECU if it's making too much power, if you force boost in it the car will close throttle. If you force timing in it, it will dive rich and change cam angle to limit air going into the cylinders, they're basically on the edge of limp mode all the time with a piggyback. Not just Dinan either but " deleted " a bmw shop here in cali pushes the JB4 stuff and they've admitted that it loses power also. They make the power for one run on the dyno before the car goes in to "OHHHHHHHHH FUCK!" mode. ECU tuning is the only reliable way to get power and bmw has made it a chore to even attempt it. "

To me this makes sense. I want consistent permanent power. I have read and seen on Youtube from Steve DINAN himself that the very concept of a Piggy back is lying to the ECU. He says theirs is better because they adjust more variables but at the end of the day its still lying to the ECU. I can't get any explanation out of Manhart or Tuningwerk (another euro tuner with a modified 2) as to how they get so much claimed power. So the above answer to me makes me want to wait. An ECU that is actually tuned...by its very definition seems better than a piggy back and naturally makes me ask the question: any one out there know how to crack and tune the actual ECU of a M235i, or make a replacement one ?

ketema, what price did Manhart give you? I asked them for a quotation and they said $2,500. Then I sent them a reply with questions but no answer.. so

[foamie]

Originally Posted by Dinan_Engineering

For reference, we're working on a really thorough video look at our DINANTronics units with in-depth explanation of the process and why they work so smoothly. Stay tuned for Part 1 this month.

More big news for us today, our DINANTronics units are now 50-state emissions legal. CARB has issued executive order #D-176-42 that makes almost every single application we make emissions legal.

The N26-powered applications are still undergoing additional testing and are not yet approved, but will be supported in the near future.

Well this is very interesting since Dinan is now advocating (or are you?) a piggyback computer for the M235i. I also seem to recall Steve Dinan in a video teach the gospel that reprogramming the ECU is the only way to go since all aspects/systems of the car are taken into consideration when you reprogram the ECU (paraphrasing). Now, it may be nice that you guys are working on a video to try to explain this or that (and was Steve wrong or did he speak too soon) and that it is 50 state legal which some of the guys here in this forum might actually care about but I would like to see an ECU solution since I would like a fool-proof way to make maximum power without grenading and have a warranty to boot. And you guys make money too Does this seem to be too much of a request?

[Dinan_Engineering]

Originally Posted by foamie

Well this is very interesting since Dinan is now advocating (or are you?) a piggyback computer for the M235i. I also seem to recall Steve Dinan in a video teach the gospel that reprogramming the ECU is the only way to go since all aspects/systems of the car are taken into consideration when you reprogram the ECU (paraphrasing). Now, it may be nice that you guys are working on a video to try to explain this or that (and was Steve wrong or did he speak too soon) and that it is 50 state legal which some of the guys here in this forum might actually care about but I would like to see an ECU solution since I would like a fool-proof way to make maximum power without grenading and have a warranty to boot. And you guys make money too Does this seem to be too much of a request?

Hi Foamie,

Thanks for the questions.

BMW has made its latest ECU's extremely difficult to crack, so creating our own ECU was the best option to make product available in a timely manner. Steve has responded to this very same question in the past with a detailed answer, so here's a link so you can read the most complete version: http://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...php?p=16775313

We'll break down the how and why in the upcoming video in much more detail.

[ketema]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

Sounds like that shop is clueless based on that statement. Find one more experienced and knowledgeable about turbo BMW tuning!
Mike

I for sure am no expert, but what exactly makes it sound like he is clueless? I do not work on cars, but I am a software engineer and I understand computer systems. He states that the car has an internal torque table. Is this true? If so it seems plausible to me that when you fool the ECU with a piggy back that the system would try its darnedest to get back to those reference values, and if it can't then being in an unstable state or as he puts it "on the edge of limp mode" makes sense to me from a systems stand point. Can you state why you assert he is not knowledgeable ? Thanks

[ketema]

Originally Posted by AlexGT

ketema, what price did Manhart give you? I asked them for a quotation and they said $2,500. Then I sent them a reply with questions but no answer.. so

Stage 1 : 1,252.10 € = $1484.18 This was ECU module only.
Stage 2 : 3,179.00 € = $3768.24 This was ECU with downpipe and exhaust.

[ketema]

Originally Posted by Dinan_Engineering

Hi Foamie,

Thanks for the questions.

BMW has made its latest ECU's extremely difficult to crack, so creating our own ECU was the best option to make product available in a timely manner. Steve has responded to this very same question in the past with a detailed answer, so here's a link so you can read the most complete version: http://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...php?p=16775313

We'll break down the how and why in the upcoming video in much more detail.

The original video and quote are what made me plan to purchase the DINAN Dinatronics system in the first place. I had never heard of Manhart then. However I wanted to speak to actual tuners and I have always planned on upgrading ancillary systems first anyway. So my slow education leads me to this direct question to DINAN: Throwing out the cost of cracking and retuning the original manufacturer ECU, is an original reprogrammed ECU better (better meaning the combination of power gain, uniformity and usability of the power, reliability, and stability over time) than a piggy back regardless of the care taken to handle errors and the other factors Steve mentions? My hunch is that the answer is yes. I'm positive that its economics that prevents DINAN from reprogramming the ECU directly. As stated: its complicated, you do not have access form BMW, you've only got 5 guys. I'm sure the price you would have to sell the reprogram for did not stack up against your expected demand. If that hunch is true there is also nothing wrong with it. Your running a business. If my suspicion that a full ECU reprogram is the best way to tune the car then I am one of those people that simply will wait. I want to do it right. I'd pay more for it too to ensure its done correctly.

[mvallido]

Originally Posted by Dinan_Engineering

For reference, we're working on a really thorough video look at our DINANTronics units with in-depth explanation of the process and why they work so smoothly. Stay tuned for Part 1 this month.

More big news for us today, our DINANTronics units are now 50-state emissions legal. CARB has issued executive order #D-176-42 that makes almost every single application we make emissions legal.

The N26-powered applications are still undergoing additional testing and are not yet approved, but will be supported in the near future.

Any Dinan Signature packages in the works for the M235i?

[ewohar]

Originally Posted by Delnari

As one of the previous DINAN early users I can say you should look other than DINAN package. I had the DINAN Stage 2 on my E92 and it was wonderful (twin turbos). On the the F22 is was no where near as good for power gains.

I now have the aFe Scorcher module because of its clean and simple installation. The power is better than DINAN Stage 1 and BMS Stage 1 and cost is under $370. Better tunes exist and you should buy the one appropriate for your desired power and modifications.

That is so too bad. I too was extremely satisfied with the Dinan ECU reflash for my 335 and was hoping for similar or better results with my M235.

[foamie]

Time will tell what works best regarding these possible choices. User experience is always the standard that I seek and the forums are a great pool of knowledge. Just a matter of time before people will be comparing multiple products with real world speed runs/track performance, quality of the product and driving experience. I just hope that the M235i will be popular enough to motivate tuners in developing solutions for those who seek the best aftermarket solution.

[ketema]

Originally Posted by foamie

...I just hope that the M235i will be popular enough to motivate tuners in developing solutions for those who seek the best aftermarket solution..

Agreed! Although part of the reason I got this car was because I was hoping not too many others would buy it. If I can't find mass produced improvements will just have to find someone willing to work on it, or learn to do it myself! Patience though is the key as hard as that is.

[AlexGT]

Originally Posted by ketema

Stage 1 : 1,252.10 € = $1484.18 This was ECU module only.
Stage 2 : 3,179.00 € = $3768.24 This was ECU with downpipe and exhaust.

Wow!!! that's a thousand US$ less than they quoted me!!

Now I know why they didn't finally reply to my questions, which included one related to the price.

[Guyhim1]

any plans for stage 2? or power pkg ?

[Dinan_Engineering]

Originally Posted by mvallido

Any Dinan Signature packages in the works for the M235i?

Originally Posted by Guyhim1

any plans for stage 2? or power pkg ?

Yes, yes, and yes. =)

All 3 should all be coming around the same time frame when the intake is released which should be the tail end of February the last I was notified.

Please note the M235i xDrive will not have a signature package because no suspension is available for it as of yet.

[mvallido]

Originally Posted by Dinan_Engineering

Yes, yes, and yes. =)

All 3 should all be coming around the same time frame when the intake is released which should be the tail end of February the last I was notified.

Please note the M235i xDrive will not have a signature package because no suspension is available for it as of yet.

Great News! Good for California owners.

[ketema]

This makes sense to me and I'll be buying DINAN.

[AlexGT]

Originally Posted by nude

All I can say is that the unit ...... Manhart is bullshit !
I have this famous Module ... it does nothing !!
I passed the bench and I won that 10ch din .
Manhart wants nothing to do , they are dead !!
Therefore, avoid at all costs.

nude I didn't see your response until today and all I can say is WOW, it really does nothing?? I was just at one step to purchase their box like 2 weeks ago but between the price of it and that they don't have any dyno data nor videos, I decided to not got with them.

Thanks for sharing your experience, very useful.

[chaddy74]

This is a load of crap that Manhart does nothing .... I call this bullshit !! I have been running the Manhart solution stage 2 with custom mapping paired with a full exhaust and Wagner Intercooler on 98Pump fuel and have supporting Vbox data of 0-100 and 1/4 mile outcomes which tell a completely different story !!

Each to there own I guess !!

Originally Posted by AlexGT

nude I didn't see your response until today and all I can say is WOW, it really does nothing?? I was just at one step to purchase their box like 2 weeks ago but between the price of it and that they don't have any dyno data nor videos, I decided to not got with them.

Thanks for sharing your experience, very useful.

[AlexGT]

Originally Posted by chaddy74

This is a load of crap that Manhart does nothing .... I call this bullshit !! I have been running the Manhart solution stage 2 with custom mapping paired with a full exhaust and Wagner Intercooler on 98Pump fuel and have supporting Vbox data of 0-100 and 1/4 mile outcomes which tell a completely different story !!

Each to there own I guess !!

Thanks for the clarification chaddy74 , mind sharing some data with me? videos? I appreciate it

My experience with Manhart's sales department was good, they're very kind and professional, but they failed to share data about their box with me.

[chaddy74]

PM'd and added my email for further chats if required Cheers !!

Originally Posted by AlexGT

Thanks for the clarification chaddy74 , mind sharing some data with me? videos? I appreciate it

My experience with Manhart's sales department was good, they're very kind and professional, but they failed to share data about their box with me.

[AlexGT]

Originally Posted by chaddy74

PM'd and added my email for further chats if required Cheers !!

Cheers bro! Thanks a lot!