[EEBreh]

Originally Posted by AlpsRider

I agree that it is more fun with the electronic safeguards off. The difference is that in the vintage car days they didn't have many 3400 lb cars with 320 horsepower and 330 lbs of torque. The cars with that much horsepower did get into trouble a lot.
I'm not saying you shouldn't turn DSC off, just do it when you're concentrating on the car and not in traffic.

A slightly modified Porsche 944 Turbo can easily get that and they are really easy to drive, the boost is very predictable. I still think learning car control is very valuable.

[pikcachu]

Originally Posted by Zooks527

DSC on or off has no effect on the differential braking feature of the traction control system. It's on all the time. What changes is that the system no longer pulls back the throttle or timing to additionally limit wheelspin.

There's a summary on the 1 series board here: http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=719012

From the BMW website (http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Conte.../Safety.aspx):

Not according to this, page 32 and 34 http://www.bimmerpost.com/goodiesfor..._Dynamics1.pdf

Automatic Differential Brake (only active in DSC mode off turned off)
they even mentioned twice

[Zooks527]

Originally Posted by pikcachu

Not according to this, page 32 and 34 http://www.bimmerpost.com/goodiesfor..._Dynamics1.pdf

Automatic Differential Brake (only active in DSC mode off turned off)
they even mentioned twice

That's because the table you showed is continued from the prior page. If you include the prior page, you will see that DSC is fully active in DSC ON mode, partially active in DTC mode, and off in DSC OFF mode.

In both DSC modes (fully on and partially on), the system provides both differential braking and either power pull off at incipient wheel spin (DSC ON) or after a limited amount of wheel spin (DTC). If DSC is fully off, then ADB mode is on.

BMW's corporate site goes into more detail at http://www.bmw.com/com/en/insights/t...erential_brake. Note that ADB is explicitly called out as a part of DSC.

BMW's Dynamic Stability Control (DSC) system ensures that the vehicle remains stable when taking bends, speeding up or braking on uneven road surfaces or in poor driving conditions. The Automatic Differential Brake (ADB-X) is part of this system. Using sophisticated electronics, it offers the same function as a mechanical differential brake - without any disadvantages arising from weight and loss of efficiency.
If a wheel threatens to slip, it is individually braked: blocking momentum is directed to the wheel opposite, which thereby guarantees optimum drive power. When DSC or Dynamic Traction Control (DTC) is active, the engine power output is also adjusted.
If the sporting driver chooses to deactivate DSC or DTC, he still has the benefit of ADB-X, which then focuses on maximum forward drive and applies braking force only. A temperature control sensor ensures that the brakes do not overheat.

The full table section showing this from the reference you provided is shown below.

[pikcachu]

Originally Posted by Zooks527

That's because the table you showed is continued from the prior page. If you include the prior page, you will see that DSC is fully active in DSC ON mode, partially active in DTC mode, and off in DSC OFF mode.

You mean ASC fully active in DSC ON, partially active in DTC, and off in DSC off ?

Originally Posted by Zooks527

If DSC is fully off, then ADB mode is on.

Correct... If DSC is fully off, then ADB is on, so then when you are not in DSC OFF, ADB is off like it shows on the table

It can't be more clear than that, ADB is only active in DSC OFF mode

[eclipes]

You guys scared me so now i dont turn off dsc. Just drive in sport and call it a day

[AlpsRider]

Originally Posted by EEBreh

Some of us grew up with old vintage cars without any aids and we prefer it that way (just don't drive like a fool on the street and you will be fine). Take your car out for a DE event or an autocross and see what I mean, it's a lot of fun not relying on computers to do all the work.

I guess when you said old vintage cars I was thinking Mustangs, Camaros, Corvettes, and Chargers etc. I have done a few unintentional donuts in the middle of the road with my first car which was a 69 Cougar XR7 with a 351 V8. A Porsche of any kind would have been a dream back then.
I agree learning to control a car is valuable and it is impossible to really get a feeling for a car and unless you know how it behaves when it slides around a corner.

[Zooks527]

Originally Posted by pikcachu

You mean ASC fully active in DSC ON, partially active in DTC, and off in DSC off ?


Correct... If DSC is fully off, then ADB is on, so then when you are not in DSC OFF, ADB is off like it shows on the table

It can't be more clear than that, ADB is only active in DSC OFF mode

No. ADB is an included subset of DSC. Go back to this link http://www.bmw.com/com/en/insights/t...erential_brake and read it again.

What part of

BMW's Dynamic Stability Control (DSC) system ensures that the vehicle remains stable when taking bends, speeding up or braking on uneven road surfaces or in poor driving conditions. The Automatic Differential Brake (ADB-X) is part of this system. ...... If a wheel threatens to slip, it is individually braked: blocking momentum is directed to the wheel opposite, which thereby guarantees optimum drive power. When DSC or Dynamic Traction Control (DTC) is active, the engine power output is also adjusted.

is confusing you?

The "eDiff" function is always on, in DSC, DTC, and ADB. It's the only function on in ADB, and one of several in DSC and DTC.

[rich8566]

[QUOTE=Zooks527]

Originally Posted by pikcachu

The "eDiff" function is always on, in DSC, DTC, and ADB. It's the only function on in ADB, and one of several in DSC and DTC.

I concur.

[Xiaoxi]

Originally Posted by eclipes

You guys scared me so now i dont turn off dsc. Just drive in sport and call it a day

lol the fear is overblown.

This is a well balanced car and it is truly "user error" that would contribute to any instability. Use good judgment and common sense (which should be the case regardless), and there won't be a problem, DSC on or off.

I like DSC OFF because of the sports chassis / steering / exhaust it provides without the aggressive throttle.

[pikcachu]

Originally Posted by Zooks527

What part of

BMW's Dynamic Stability Control (DSC) system ensures that the vehicle remains stable when taking bends, speeding up or braking on uneven road surfaces or in poor driving conditions. The Automatic Differential Brake (ADB-X) is part of this system. ...... If a wheel threatens to slip, it is individually braked: blocking momentum is directed to the wheel opposite, which thereby guarantees optimum drive power. When DSC or Dynamic Traction Control (DTC) is active, the engine power output is also adjusted.

is confusing you?

The "eDiff" function is always on, in DSC, DTC, and ADB. It's the only function on in ADB, and one of several in DSC and DTC.

What's confusing is that the technical doc says "ADB is only active in DSC OFF mode"...
Cause it says it pretty clear twice... ADB inactive in DSC ON and DTC and again explicitly (ADB only active in DSC OFF)

you are saying the technical doc is wrong then, cause you said "DSC on or off has no effect on the differential braking feature of the traction control system"

[Zooks527]

Originally Posted by pikcachu

What's confusing is that the technical doc says "ADB is only active in DSC OFF mode"...
Cause it says it pretty clear twice... ADB inactive in DSC ON and DTC and again explicitly (ADB only active in DSC OFF)

you are saying the technical doc is wrong then, cause you said "DSC on or off has no effect on the differential braking feature of the traction control system"

No, I'm saying you are wrong when you claim that the "eDiff" function isn't on all the time. You're getting fixated on a program component name and losing track of the statement made.

You want to claim ADB isn't part of DSC regardless of what BMW's website says? Fine. Who cares, since that isn't the point in dispute ("When is eDiff on?")? You'll note that the chart above states that in both DSC and DTC modes, Automatic Stability Control is active. What is Automatic Stability Control? Again, per BMW (http://www.bmw.com/com/en/insights/t...lity_control):

Automatic Stability Control (ASC) is an element of the Dynamic Stability Control (DSC) system. It prevents loss of traction on the drive wheels when setting off, when accelerating out of curves and in other critical moments. When one wheel has good traction but the other is on a slippery patch of road, the wheel with less traction is braked until it is again able to gain a grip on the road surface.

Bottom line is that "eDiff " is on all the time. You're just obsessing over what the control function is being called.

It also isn't hard to prove. Go out on a slippery surface (plenty of that in half the country) and try to get one wheel to spin faster than the one on the other side of the axle. You can't, as the car will differentially brake all the time. It's one of the parts of the stability control functions that can't be turned off, excluding cases where the car determines that the brakes are overheating.

[pikcachu]

Originally Posted by Zooks527

No, I'm saying you are wrong when you claim that the "eDiff" function isn't on all the time. You're getting fixated on a program component name and losing track of the statement made.

You want to claim ADB isn't part of DSC regardless of what BMW's website says? Fine. Who cares, since that isn't the point in dispute ("When is eDiff on?")? You'll note that the chart above states that in both DSC and DTC modes, Automatic Stability Control is active. What is Automatic Stability Control? Again, per BMW (http://www.bmw.com/com/en/insights/t...lity_control):

Automatic Stability Control (ASC) is an element of the Dynamic Stability Control (DSC) system. It prevents loss of traction on the drive wheels when setting off, when accelerating out of curves and in other critical moments. When one wheel has good traction but the other is on a slippery patch of road, the wheel with less traction is braked until it is again able to gain a grip on the road surface.

Bottom line is that "eDiff " is on all the time. You're just obsessing over what the control function is being called.

It also isn't hard to prove. Go out on a slippery surface (plenty of that in half the country) and try to get one wheel to spin faster than the one on the other side of the axle. You can't, as the car will differentially brake all the time. It's one of the parts of the stability control functions that can't be turned off, excluding cases where the car determines that the brakes are overheating.

Ok I guess what I tried initially to say was that on DSC OFF not all the DSC functions are turned off like it was mentioned here

"When you keep holding it for 5 seconds DSC is deactivated and the system will not intervene to try and stabilize the car"

with DSC OFF the only thing you get is the eLSD which will brake the inside wheel when turning to transfer torque to the outside wheel and let you accelerate faster

I does make sense that DSC can brake individual wheels at all modes but its very confusing that the technical doc that you would think more accurate than a marketing snippet of a website shows like the function is only active on DSC OFF even though in reality it would be active in all modes

I don't quite agree with "DSC on or off has no effect on the differential braking feature of the traction control system." though, in DSC ON or DTC the car will cut power and thus potentially correct the situation before the brakes need to be applied... so it has an effect in the sense that the feature will not kick in as often

meaning on DSC ON or DTC, differential braking will not be applied as often as with DSC OFF

[Zooks527]

Originally Posted by pikcachu

Ok I guess what I tried initially to say was that on DSC OFF not all the DSC functions are turned off like it was mentioned here

Fair enough.

Originally Posted by pikcachu

I don't quite agree with "DSC on or off has no effect on the differential braking feature of the traction control system." though, in DSC ON or DTC the car will cut power and thus potentially correct the situation before the brakes need to be applied... so it has an effect in the sense that the feature will not kick in as often

meaning on DSC ON or DTC, differential braking will not be applied as often as with DSC OFF

I honestly think it goes the other way: it differentially brakes first, trying to get both wheels to run at the same speed. If it sees both spinning, then it pulls power off.

[bryan_G01]

Anyone else feel when all the electronic nannies are off its slower than just being in Sport+?


Try holding it down for 5 seconds till its off. Than if you go to put it into Sport+ you have to go 2 steps. It feels like its in Comfort mode without DSC/DCT on.

Is this just me?

[pikcachu]

Originally Posted by bryan_e90

Anyone else feel when all the electronic nannies are off its slower than just being in Sport+?


Try holding it down for 5 seconds till its off. Than if you go to put it into Sport+ you have to go 2 steps. It feels like its in Comfort mode without DSC/DCT on.

Is this just me?

DSC off has comfort throttle response but sport steering and suspension.

[eclipes]

Thats exactly why im hooked now. Perfect for day to day drive. throttle in sport is a bit too much for traffic driving

Originally Posted by Xiaoxi

lol the fear is overblown.

This is a well balanced car and it is truly "user error" that would contribute to any instability. Use good judgment and common sense (which should be the case regardless), and there won't be a problem, DSC on or off.

I like DSC OFF because of the sports chassis / steering / exhaust it provides without the aggressive throttle.

[OldCrow7xx]

Originally Posted by eclipes

Thats exactly why im hooked now. Perfect for day to day drive. throttle in sport is a bit too much for traffic driving

Hey guys I am doing alot of research today trying to figure out how to build and drive my car. I grew up poor with parents who know absolutely nothing about cars or physics, so this is all new to me. I have a 2016 M235i FBO Stage 2 with X-Delete now.

How should I calibrate my car if I want the following parameters:

-Very heavy steering, I do not want the car moving unless I force the wheel hard. I have a very heavy hand and do not like then the steering is so light and floaty. When I put the car on "eco mode" I feel like 1mm of turn on the steering wheel and the car is veering off the highway.

-I want the hardest suspension settings, I want the car to cut and corner on a blade, I do not care about ride quality. I just want fun and responsiveness. I am coming from a K20 Civic Si that cornered on rails.

-I want the throttle to be as responsive as possible, often times in this car I feel like I have to go to 80% pedal or more to get the thing to wake up and respond to me. Again the civic felt so eager to rev and respond to my input, I just want this car to listen to me that way again.

-I want the wheels to be able to spin, but have that final safety net as I learn to slide and drift my first high power RWD car. I want to be able to break traction and see the power I have forced the engine to produce is existing.

Thanks in advance, this thread has already helped me more than anything in the past 3 months.

Cheers

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by OldCrow7xx

my first high power RWD car

Isn't your car AWD?

[OldCrow7xx]

Originally Posted by dradernh

Isn't your car AWD?

No I used the X-Delete software to convert it, hence the sudden need to understand all of this stuff.

[Moflow]

Find yourself an empty parking lot, preferably in the rain to practice correcting oversteer without over correcting. I grew up with a love for drifting but despite knowing exactly what was going on intellectually the first time I got sideways in a car, I still spun it simply because the muscle memory wasn’t there. You have to build that memory with practice.

I’m older now and no longer really that into drifting, but on both the street and the track (where I participate in endurance racing) I’ve had cars pop sideways on me mid-corner quickly and unexpectedly. But in those situations, I’m already correcting the slide before the conscious part of my brain even knows what’s happening.

So do yourself a favor and build that muscle memory in a safe environment.

[Maynard]

The only safe environment is on a track at an HPDE. And 'safe' means all you lose is the money for bodywork. These quick 'how-to-drift' comments don't even discuss throttle-lift OS, which is the typical snafu for newbies. You can develop much of this feel with extensive winter driving, but it is really irresponsible to encourage somebody new to try to develop a feel for correcting a slide on the street (and IIRC, Porsche would have given their first born for 320hp in a 944 - I think those were 930 numbers, and that was widely regarded as a death trap).

And if there is any aspect of these cars that is NOT "clear as it can be" it has to be this nomenclature - the use of double negatives, undefined acronyms, and german grammar all had me completely confused until I found more details like are provided above (guess it would have been just too simple to call it 'limited-DSC' instead of 'DTC'? Or using 'traction' for the mode that ISN'T DSC?).

[Winemaker2]

So many posts already. All I was going to say is that (okay I'll admit it I am almost an old fart) even with my track experience unless I intended to race, then sports + works just fine for me. I can still swing the rear end around, but there is a bit of a safety net still there.

One comment for Maynard: I owned a 944 Turbo in 1985 and thought I knew how to drive having taken a Bob Bondurant class. What did that car produce then, what 210 HP, and a 3 second turbo lag. Anyway, punched it hard coming home and without nannies which didn't exist then hit the curb while setting up for a left hand turn. Lesson learned! Learn your car first in EVERY mode it provides and then have some fun, but be a little modest on public roads.