[blanquito]

If I had bought my M235i in order to have the best performing car in the sub $50k price range, I would be disappointed. But I also would have ended up with a Subaru as that could have gotten me a faster track car at a lesser price.

For me, there are a lot of intangibles that made me gravitate to BMW and then subsequently the M235i after my E92 M3. Sad to say, but I am infatuated with BMW as a brand. Not due to status symbol qualities but their marketing, philosophy, and culture.

My decision making with the M235i came down to these core factors:
1. Size
2. Handling in city driving
3. Fit and finish quality
4. Ability to do the occasional autocross day
5. Brand history / car culture associated

For me, if I wanted an amazing track car - I would be buying a lotus exige. But, that would make for a terrible DD. So until I can float both, I'm good.

[caycep]

The funny thing is – the new Camaro is on the GM alpha platform. Thus, it's essentially engineer to be very similar to an e46, and by all accounts, and by all accounts, the Alpha cars drive very much like the previous gen BMWs.

Just, the Chevy's bodywork is too much. It doesn't look like you can see out of it that wi it doesn't look like you can see out of it that well

[wjones14]

Originally Posted by sgmpw

So...fresh from a quick 15 min test drive...
Better than I thought to be honest but after calming down a bit I'm settling back on the M235i as my choice (actually - waiting to get my mits on an order sheet for an M240i).
...

Otherwise it really is an incredible thing. Ride, handling, grunt, noise, shifter, brakes, ergonomics (! never thought I'd say that about a GM)...all wins. I can see why the reviews are so solid.

As always it boils down to personal choice and preferences. If I wanted a weekend toy I might be sold. I need it every day (fun or mundane, alone or with family/friends) year round, so I think it will be the M240i with a set of winters and a smile.

...I really wish it had an LSD though.....hmmmm. Dammit.

I love this debate topic because both cars are flawed in different ways, and yet marvelous in others. Everyone brings up valid points.

I went from the big Mustang to the perfect size 2 Series. Loved the 2er from Day 1 and still do, but now starting to miss the sound and always-instant-on power of the NA V-8. I totally agree with those 2 guys in Motor Trend's M4 vs. 2SS video, where they ask, "who really wants a turbo over an NA engine?"

But then you go right back to the daily driving aspect, and the 2 Series ergonomics wins. Easily. And back and forth. What do I want - self-asserting weekend track toy or more PC luxury sport coupe?

[sgmpw]

For cryin' out loud....now GM will honor warranty claims even for issues arising from track use...
http://www.autoblog.com/2016/04/01/2...rack-warranty/

They're not making this decision easy
Still not enough to sway me away from the BMW but good on 'em for doing it!

[mcompact]

Originally Posted by sgmpw

For cryin' out loud....now GM will honor warranty claims even for issues arising from track use...
http://www.autoblog.com/2016/04/01/2...rack-warranty/

They're not making this decision easy
Still not enough to sway me away from the BMW but good on 'em for doing it!

I never caught any flack from either my BMW or my Mazda dealer regarding track use. My My SA at the BMW dealer tracks his E36 M3 and one of the sales guys instructs at HPDEs- and used to track a 1 Series M Coupe.

[olehead]

My BMW dealer actually sponsors my wife at NED - we just have to display one of his banners where we set up. The issue is not the dealer it is insurance - try to explain your crunched you fender at the track and want to claim the cost LOL

[Perfektenschlag]

Originally Posted by wjones14

I love this debate topic because both cars are flawed in different ways, and yet marvelous in others. Everyone brings up valid points.

I went from the big Mustang to the perfect size 2 Series. Loved the 2er from Day 1 and still do, but now starting to miss the sound and always-instant-on power of the NA V-8. I totally agree with those 2 guys in Motor Trend's M4 vs. 2SS video, where they ask, "who really wants a turbo over an NA engine?"

But then you go right back to the daily driving aspect, and the 2 Series ergonomics wins. Easily. And back and forth. What do I want - self-asserting weekend track toy or more PC luxury sport coupe?

I owned a Monte Carlo SS for several years and I do miss that V8 rumble. I test drove a 328i (they didn't have 228 available) and the lag was unbearable... it's not nearly as noticeable in the 235, so I've gotten used to it in Comfort and don't even have to think about it in Sport.

This thread has made me curious about the Camaro, but I love the 235 as a daily driver.

[xantdieselx]

I think one of the good things about this thread (and possibly 2 series owners in general) is the lack of bias. I love performance cars - I don't care who makes them. I happen to be partial to BMW because they seem to engineer in the intangibles. There are things about a BMW that that you don't get from other cars. Sometimes it's not something you can quantity or something that is present in a metric.

The new Camaro is bad-ass. So is the Mustang, the WRX, Focus RS, CTS-V, ATS-V, Hellcat, Tesla...the list goes on and on. They are all different and better in some ways than others.

[omega145]

Originally Posted by xantdieselx

I think one of the good things about this thread (and possibly 2 series owners in general) is the lack of bias. I love performance cars - I don't care who makes them. I happen to be partial to BMW because they seem to engineer in the intangibles. There are things about a BMW that that you don't get from other cars. Sometimes it's not something you can quantity or something that is present in a metric.

The new Camaro is bad-ass. So is the Mustang, the WRX, Focus RS, CTS-V, ATS-V, Hellcat, Tesla...the list goes on and on. They are all different and better in some ways than others.

Excellent point! I get tired of the people who are so biased like the Ford vs. Chevy guys or Benz vs. Beemer guys. Who cares? Like what you like and enjoy whatever it is that you enjoy. My heart's always been with American muscle cars as I've had a long laundry list of V8's. I drive a 235 now because of its practicality and drive ability as opposed to those that didn't offer me those same options. I can still appreciate a beautiful car with amazing performance from any make/model.

[sgmpw]

Originally Posted by omega145

Excellent point! I get tired of the people who are so biased like the Ford vs. Chevy guys or Benz vs. Beemer guys. Who cares? Like what you like and enjoy whatever it is that you enjoy. My heart's always been with American muscle cars as I've had a long laundry list of V8's. I drive a 235 now because of its practicality and drive ability as opposed to those that didn't offer me those same options. I can still appreciate a beautiful car with amazing performance from any make/model.

Agree completely. Vibe from this thread is definitely 'driving enthusiast' vs. fan-boy/girl. Real appreciation for a quality effort and product.

[Liquidpaper]

This might sound weird, but I think this is in part due to the cars we presumably drive. They are not the bleeding edge of BMW performance. They are not the flagship, nor are they the best car for the money.

But, they're fun. No one buys a 2 series (or even the M2 for that matter) thinking it's the best, fastest, most luxurious, cheapest, or most hardcore, because they aren't. They buy it for fun. I did. When you aren't chasing excel numbers or having your manhood (or womanhood) rest on your car, you can appreciate other fast, fun cars without developing a complex.

Related note - BMW should extend track coverage to their performance cars (at very least the M cars, ours not included). Great PR, and in reality, most dealerships will do the warranty work if you are nice about it and don't shove it in their face.

[mcompact]

Originally Posted by xantdieselx

I think one of the good things about this thread (and possibly 2 series owners in general) is the lack of bias. I love performance cars - I don't care who makes them. I happen to be partial to BMW because they seem to engineer in the intangibles. There are things about a BMW that that you don't get from other cars. Sometimes it's not something you can quantity or something that is present in a metric.

The new Camaro is bad-ass. So is the Mustang, the WRX, Focus RS, CTS-V, ATS-V, Hellcat, Tesla...the list goes on and on. They are all different and better in some ways than others.

I agree 100%. What I can't abide are the idiots I refer to as "wearers"- the dweebs who consider their car to be a fashion accessory. All that matters to those fools is how many envious glances the car attracts- and how effectively the car telegraphs the owner's disposable income.

[tbonez3858]

Originally Posted by sgmpw

yeah - I used the rearview camera and backed it into the space back at the dealership. It worked really well but I guess it kinda has to...

Thanks all for the inputs - it is helping me make up my own mind.

I wonder what a BMW exec would think if he read this (or the vs Mustang etc) posts...laurels anyone?

Chevrolet and Ford are now matching BMW in performance but I personally believe BMW doesn't care. My impression is that BMW feels they have been there and done that and no longer care.

BMW didnt lose its focus and start falling behind in the performance world. BMW changed their focus. BMW appears to be interested in electric "drive trains" and autonomous features.

[mcompact]

Originally Posted by tbonez3858

Chevrolet and Ford are now matching BMW in performance but I personally believe BMW doesn't care. My impression is that BMW feels they have been there and done that and no longer care.

BMW didnt lose its focus and start falling behind in the performance world. BMW changed their focus. BMW appears to be interested in electric "drive trains" and autonomous features.

Car and Driver's recent review of a 340i xDrive contains a quote from a BMW engineer that explains why the F30's steering lacks any semblance of feel: "Our customers don't want it." Which explains the buyer that they are now pandering to; the imbecile who thinks "trailing throttle oversteer" is a band that used to open for Kansas.

[ibmiked]

Here you guys go, I fixed the visibility issues with the new Camaro.

[omega145]

Not bad man...although you'd have to shorten the nose, decrease the pillar size and also increase the rear window for decent visibility

[sgmpw]

Originally Posted by ibmiked

Here you guys go, I fixed the visibility issues with the new Camaro.

ooh...I see why they didn't try to fix it

nicely done.

[caycep]

they both kind of look like Pikachu come to think of it..

[MichaelL]

Looks good, better than the real car. Nice work.

[the_phew]

It's not just a performance/$ issue, it's that the new Camaro excels in all elements of driver engagement versus ANY current BMW (M models included), regardless of how you option the car.

The steering/chassis is more communicative, the throttle response more instantaneous, the exhaust sounds better, even the 6MT has crisper action than BMW's.

With the Alpha platform, GM set out to build a better E46. With the Fxx cars, BMW set out to make their cars more Buick-like. Both automakers achieved their goals.

[olehead]

the only comment I would make about the previous absurd statement is "There is not a production Camaro made that will compete with a Production M on a road course and they do not even try - Road and Track - Car and Driver and other pubs agree -
I am not one to rate one car over the other (as seen on previous posts I have a heavily modified GT Mustang and it is really fast in a line - but not so much on a road course) but statements that are way out of line need to be challenged -

[the_phew]

Originally Posted by olehead

the only comment I would make about the previous absurd statement is "There is not a production Camaro made that will compete with a Production M on a road course and they do not even try - Road and Track - Car and Driver and other pubs agree -
I am not one to rate one car over the other (as seen on previous posts I have a heavily modified GT Mustang and it is really fast in a line - but not so much on a road course) but statements that are way out of line need to be challenged -

Your missing endquote and random dashes make it difficult to interpret your comment, but I'll try to respond nonetheless: The <$20k Yamaha YZF-R1 is even faster around the 'ring than the M4 GTS, but it's ridiculous to compare lap times on this forum. The track-spec pony cars (Z28, GT350R) put up incredible lap times anyway, for what it's worth.

The only issue that matters is that the Camaro is now more engaging to drive than anything BMW currently sells (confirmed by the same publications you cite), and that's sad news for BMW enthusiasts no matter how you slice it.