[bimmerfile]

Originally Posted by crabu2

I have found that AWD with all seasons to be equal or slightly better than RWD with winters, when it comes to moving forward. Stopping is another story.

.................................................

That has also been my experience.
One area where "all seasons" may have somewhat an advantage over winters is in the fall and spring.:
Temperatures do not decline or rise in a straight linear fashion in the fall and spring months.
While the rubber in winters are more effective as temp get below 7C, they become less so as temps go above 7C and in our climate where temps can be 20C one day and -2C the next for several months of the year, the rubber in all seasons has a broader effective temperature range than winters.

[Dr. Indiana Jones]

Originally Posted by bimmerfile

That has also been my experience.
One area where "all seasons" may have somewhat an advantage over winters is in the fall and spring.:
Temperatures do not decline or rise in a straight linear fashion in the fall and spring months.
While the rubber in winters are more effective as temp get below 7C, they become less so as temps go above 7C and in our climate where temps can be 20C one day and -2C the next for several months of the year, the rubber in all seasons has a broader effective temperature range than winters.

So u actually went w an A/S setup, ergo no need to swap tires twice per year? Jim Kenzie of the Toronto Star feels A/S s/b called no-seasons, but I think that's being a bit harsh. I think I'm going to stick w the dreaded tire swapping to get the max benefits of summer and winter performance, even w x-drive.

[Dr. Indiana Jones]

Originally Posted by crabu2

You've wanted xDrive in the past, and it's a lease. Get it, then you'll know whether you'll want it in future vehicles.

As for driving differences.... I've had RWD and they're loads of fun... doing burnouts, doughnuts and what not. I've had AWD, and AWD vehicles are just confidence inspiring. You'll want to take the turn faster and drive a bit to quick in the snow and rain. You'll start looking for fresh snow to go play in.

Me, I ordered xDrive because I enjoyed the better traction... in all conditions.

Thx Crabu2, that sums up what I'm looking for too!

I want to take this opportunity to THANK YOU ALL for your spirited insights. Here's a summary of your major overall pros and cons of x-drive:
Pros
- Turn torque into grip at all four corners all the time
- Confidence inspiring - better handling in all conditions (not just snow). You'll want to take the turn faster and drive a bit too quick in the snow and rain. An 'on rails' experience. Even in the summer or spring, when it's raining, I've found AWD to be better.
- Able to handle the high torque to keep the tires planted

Cons
- Warm-weather trade-off in handling and feel
- Boring to drive. I feel the only advantage to RWD is being able to throw the rear end out for fun. And man can it be fun at times.
- Fuel economy
- With a good tire and LSD there's little wheel spin if any at all. LSD usually takes care of many issues with RWD traction.
- More weight (and presumably a few millimetres of extra ride-height)
- Need to worry about transfer case breaking down (and they do), and need to change its oil (no biggie for a lease w free maintenance included)

In the final analysis, there is no better choice - their both good. I test drove a 240i xdrive in the rain yesterday, and thx to its normal 40/60 front/rear bias it drove just like a RWD, and I liked it very much (albeit I didn't get to push the car). Rather than opt for an expensive LSD add-on, I think I'm going to go w xdrive this go around, auto (steptronic), winter/summer performance tires. The cost of xdrive has come down considerably (likely a mere $1K since its $2,150 cost raises residual value by say 50%), ride height now only nominally higher, and ~90% of BMWs now have it. I'm the sort who wants to drive fast w/o any drama of having rear wheels spinning, or rear-end wavering, w all 4 wheels planted on terra firma, so I think xdrive is my best choice. Someday maybe I'll have the courage to order RWD w LSD (realistically how much would it cost in CAD) as a factory add-on?

Again, you are all the best!

[bimmerfile]

Originally Posted by Dr. Indiana Jones

So u actually went w an A/S setup, ergo no need to swap tires twice per year? Jim Kenzie of the Toronto Star feels A/S s/b called no-seasons, but I think that's being a bit harsh. I think I'm going to stick w the dreaded tire swapping to get the max benefits of summer and winter performance, even w x-drive.

Yup, I think there may have been 4 or 5 days this winter with snow on the road this past winter in my area and the A/S RFT handled those conditions as well as any winter tires I've ever had.
Being retired means that if conditions (severe snow, blizzard, ice, etc) were such that I thought there was any reason for concern, I wouldn't take the car out. During the past 5- 10 years I think that may have happened twice.

BTW, I like Jim Kenzie - probably the only reason to read the Toronto (red) Star.

[casualDIYer]

Originally Posted by Dr. Indiana Jones

Hi all. I live in Toronto (GTA) and have always gone w RWD w winter tires w/o incident (inc. my current M235i). However, I'm about to lease a new M240i (same colour combo), and am seriously considering x-drive for a change. From what u've all said, the benefits of x-drive are: better winter handling / improved safety, better grip for acceleration, and arguably better grip when cornering (albeit some would argue RWD is better for cornering). I am not a track guy, and don't engage in hi-speed cornering, and am merely looking for improved straight line acceleration. In the past xdrive was too expensive, but now that it's only $1.5-2K more, on a lease that's a mere $1K delta. Am I crazy going for xdrive for a change? Will it perform in the summer months too?

As always I appreciate everyone's insights!

I live in the GTA as well. Be honest, for the winter of 2016 how much xDriving would you have done? If a nuke goes of in Ryadh and gas hits $2.00 a litre every extra drop of gas will suck.

AWD is a fad. Winter tires are the true champs of snow and ice. $1500 would buy some very nice winter wheels and tires. Or splurge on another option.

And please don't fall for that safety BS about AWD. If BMW had even one tiny tiny stat on AWD safety they'd print it on the world's biggest banner. I can drive. It's the idiot in that 12 year old Pontiac Fiero on bald tires and cardboard brake pads Facebooking I worry about. What's AWD going to do for me when he rear ends me?

And for a company with a hardon for AWD why are they fast forwarding FWD cars? More interior cabin space. Well what about AWD? Sorrrryyyyy

If BMW wants $1500 they'd better tell a more convincing story regarding AWD. Some of the crap I hear is almost pure fantasy. Star Wars is more factual!

[casualDIYer]

Originally Posted by Dr. Indiana Jones

So u actually went w an A/S setup, ergo no need to swap tires twice per year? Jim Kenzie of the Toronto Star feels A/S s/b called no-seasons, but I think that's being a bit harsh. I think I'm going to stick w the dreaded tire swapping to get the max benefits of summer and winter performance, even w x-drive.

Tires = grip
Good tires = good grip
Mediocre tires = street hockey Stevie on the hood of your car. Although AWD means you can flee the scene faster

[casualDIYer]

Originally Posted by SCCThree

I went with x-drive on my M240i and couldn't be happier.

I took a RWD M240i for a 'spirited' test drive and kept hitting the traction control limiter. Turned that off and kept breaking the tires loose. The car has a lot of torque! I also had the same complaint about my custom tuned 335is... just too much torque to keep the tires planted.

The solution was x-drive. Now I don't have that problem. Here in Dallas 99% of the streets are on the grid system so everything is straight line. I love being able to stomp the throttle and the car just rockets off.

Much respect to RWD though.

Really? That 240 RWD sounds fun. Now I want one!!!!

[casualDIYer]

Originally Posted by Prazision

It's been scientifically proven that choosing X-drive over RWD reduces testosterone levels by over 30%, just something to think about...

Hmmm sack shrinkage. Sounds serious.

Thank God someone is telling us the truth.

[BEM-S4]

I've had both RWD and AWD M235. Honestly if you aren't getting the RWD just to get a standard trans get the xDrive. It's one of the few available with a rear wheel bias without spending a lot more and on the days you need it you'll be very happy you have it. Especially with a tune you can still get the back end to step out and it performs much like a RWD car.

If you're not really driving like a maniac and don't intend to track the car honestly I doubt you'll notice much of a difference except the grip is always there never anything to worry about. Should help you w resale where you are too.

[Hops128i]

I don't like xdrive for long term ownership, it adds complexity to the car and DIY work can be more difficult.

[Dylan86]

Originally Posted by Hops128i

I don't like xdrive for long term ownership, it adds complexity to the car and DIY work can be more difficult.

My reasoning for getting an M235i was to have a 6MT, RWD, 6cyl turbo car.. If I wanted AWD, I'd get a true Audi Quattro car, and they come in manual

D

[Maynard]

Originally Posted by menncars

.....AWD is a fad. Winter tires are the true champs of snow and ice. $1500 would buy some very nice winter wheels and tires. Or splurge on another option.

Perhaps diminishing returns in the snow, but some incremental improvement (tires are the major factor there) and it does give a very different driving dynamic that is pretty cool, even in the dry.

[crabu2]

Originally Posted by Hops128i

I don't like xdrive for long term ownership, it adds complexity to the car and DIY work can be more difficult.

You could say that about anything on a car these days.. AC, power windows/locks/seats, navigation... on and on and on. They all add complexity and make DIY more difficult.

As for for it being a fad... I don't think so.. Over the years .. even decades, there are more and more AWD vehicles built and sold. And I hate to say it, but RWD is a dying breed.

[Dr. Indiana Jones]

Originally Posted by bimmerfile

Yup, I think there may have been 4 or 5 days this winter with snow on the road this past winter in my area and the A/S RFT handled those conditions as well as any winter tires I've ever had.
Being retired means that if conditions (severe snow, blizzard, ice, etc) were such that I thought there was any reason for concern, I wouldn't take the car out. During the past 5- 10 years I think that may have happened twice.

BTW, I like Jim Kenzie - probably the only reason to read the Toronto (red) Star.

Cool. I had A/S RFTs on my 335i and I must admit I liked the firmer ride of RFTs (but unfortunately they wear a bit more quickly), and I agree that A/S are fine particularly if u don't want to swap tires twice a year. I'm gonna stick w the perf. tire in the summer (albeit I must admit the advantage over A/S ain't that noticeable to me). Than again the summer tires may have saved the day once when I was driving far too fast and decided to switch highways (with traffic in the rear I needed to speed up to avoid) and I almost hit some pylons near the guard rail.

[Dr. Indiana Jones]

I agree w Crabu2. IMHO to say that AWD is a fad is mistaken. All hi-end sports cars are going the AWD (granted a Laborghini AWD system is way better than xdrive), and RWD is going the way of the MT. As for added complexity of repairing AWD, again that makes no sense IMHO (cars these days are so technologically advanced, no mere mortal can repair them, and AWD is only a small part of that complexity). I hate to say it - I used to drive 5MT - u simply can't outperform an AT (provided it has steptronic shifting). I don't know why anyone would want to fool around with a foot clutch pedal anymore, when AT w steptronic upshifts/downshifts seamlessly and much faster. Now I agree if u didn't have the ability to override the AT via strptronic, then that's a bit of problem. Than again I'm a humble U of Chicago famous archeologist, so what the hell do I know about cars LOL?

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by Dr. Indiana Jones

I don't know why anyone would want to fool around with a foot clutch pedal anymore, when AT w steptronic upshifts/downshifts seamlessly and much faster.

Dr. Jones, the 6MT, while slower is a FAR more fun and engaging car to drive. Take note of how many on this forum, the 3/4 series forum, and M forums bought autos/DCTs and regret their decision and many came back to manuals because after a few months, the "faster" novelty of the auto/DCT wore off and the car became boring to drive. You almost never hear of someone saying that they regretted the manual. When people find out the car is a manual, they're almost always like "hell ya!". If I competitively raced these cars for money, I'd have an auto/DCT. You'd be a sucker not to. Otherwise 6MT all day, everyday. No matter where I live.

The 6MT isn't without it's faults though and has it's own driveability quirks/annoyances. However, positives far outweigh the negatives and the car is never boring and/or non-engaging to drive.

[Dylan86]

Originally Posted by Dr. Indiana Jones

I agree w Crabu2. IMHO to say that AWD is a fad is mistaken. All hi-end sports cars are going the AWD (granted a Laborghini AWD system is way better than xdrive), and RWD is going the way of the MT. As for added complexity of repairing AWD, again that makes no sense IMHO (cars these days are so technologically advanced, no mere mortal can repair them, and AWD is only a small part of that complexity). I hate to say it - I used to drive 5MT - u simply can't outperform an AT (provided it has steptronic shifting). I don't know why anyone would want to fool around with a foot clutch pedal anymore, when AT w steptronic upshifts/downshifts seamlessly and much faster. Now I agree if u didn't have the ability to override the AT via strptronic, then that's a bit of problem. Than again I'm a humble U of Chicago famous archeologist, so what the hell do I know about cars LOL?

Makes logical sense. This is where I am at with car types/build specs for my uses.

City living - 100% agree that auto/dual clutch is the way to go, it just makes sense with all of the traffic and BS associated to living in a big city. That and the get-up-and-go factor is huge light to light..

Country/Mountain living, there's no sense of urgency, and manuals are most popular due to steep grades and deep snow, at least here.

For some (like me) I've had Dual Clutch gearbox equipped cars for almost 10 years, and as much as I enjoy the speed/ shifting performance, and the popular want/need to put it in "D", I felt I was missing the connection to the car. Especially when it comes to daily driving in the summer time (not racing situations, or winter driving as my car is parked for ski season). With a DSG/DCT gearbox there's a great connection when in manual mode and shifting on demand, but in average driving conditions (80% of the time) it's a bit mundane for me. For my first RWD car, I really wanted to get back to the basics. And I love being able to drive around town in second gear, third on occasion. Or at least things are becoming this way as I departed from Toronto's big city style driving to a small mountain town in BC where everyone is NOT in a rush and loves driving manuals, lol.

I used to be such an advocate for DSG/DCT but now that my lifestyle has changed, my cars have too. And I'm enjoying them this way, more now, than ever before. Everyone is going to have a reason as to why they made their decision, but there's no "right" or "wrong" choice in my books. And these topics will never be agreed upon the masses, ever.

D

[rightrudder]

Originally Posted by bimmerfile

BTW, I like Jim Kenzie - probably the only reason to read the Toronto (red) Star.

Both Kenzie and Marc LaChapelle are great writers and outstanding human beings...I've had the pleasure of attending many events with them. And Kenzie's a big fan of Mary Chapin Carpenter, which tallies extra points in my book.

On the whole manual/auto debate, it's difficult to justify a three-pedal car to someone weaned on autos. The ZF 8-speed is brilliant for what it is, but driving a so-equipped M235i xDrive for three days made me realize I'd only be happy with a manual (and rwd). I just like the control, and having my brain being the computer deciding when an upshift, downshift or declutching, is warranted. We have less and less "interaction with the machine" with modern cars, and the stick brings back some of the connected-ness. Same applies to the increasingly rare manual handbrake....I like feeling the linings take a bite and the tactile ratcheting of pulling the lever.

For me, xDrive was kinda boring...just too stuck. Then again, my car won't see snow, and rain only occasionally. Part of the fun of having such nice torque, generated at pretty low rpm, is getting a little wheelspin. I'm not going to drift it or anything, but it's so satisfying to exit a corner with just a touch of power oversteer.

[crabu2]

Originally Posted by rightrudder

I'm not going to drift it or anything, but it's so satisfying to exit a corner with just a touch of power oversteer.

Drifting is FUN... It got me into a lot of trouble in my younger days..

[Hops128i]

Originally Posted by crabu2

You could say that about anything on a car these days.. AC, power windows/locks/seats, navigation... on and on and on. They all add complexity and make DIY more difficult.

As for for it being a fad... I don't think so.. Over the years .. even decades, there are more and more AWD vehicles built and sold. And I hate to say it, but RWD is a dying breed.

for DIY i was more thinking about the serviceability of brakes, struts/shocks, fluids, gaskets (filter housing and valve cover), water pump. All these are DIY with a little skill, and some might be more complicated with xdrive simply because there's more stuff under the hood, that's all. Xdrive adds nothing to what i want out of the car, so i avoid it.

[crabu2]

That's the problem.. everyone level of DIY is different. for me, I've fixed A.C. systems, transfer cases. replaced ball joints, control arms, sensors and what not.. shoot, replaced complete suspensions. for me mounting and balancing tires are DIY... I bought a rim clamp tire changer and high speed balancer because I hated wasting my time at the tire shops...

[Kolyan2k]

Originally Posted by Dylan86

My reasoning for getting an M235i was to have a 6MT, RWD, 6cyl turbo car.. If I wanted AWD, I'd get a true Audi Quattro car, and they come in manual

D

Agreed. I would get S5 instead, with torque vectoring LSD