[reppucci]

Originally Posted by davgia

I've got a question for you M2 owners...

Doesn't it slightly bother you that a slightly tuned m240i (say a Stage 1, Air Filter & DP) will absolutely outperform you on a straight line?

Truth be telling as truth be told, most sport car owners have no clue on how to drive the car properly or how to get the most fun out of it.
The only real battleground normal people identify as a valid test is the straight line. It just blows my mind that an M-division car cannot outperform the m240i on the most popular benchmark for non-petrol head folk.

Don't get me wrong, I completely agree that the comparison between the two is Apples and Oranges. I've tracked the M2, it's a better car. But that straight-line performance gap is not something that I find easy to ignore.

You need to get over it!

Following your logic....
2016 Tesla Model S P90D 0-60 mph 2.8 seconds. 1/4 mile 10.9 seconds...

Would you rather drive your m240i or the Tesla?

[jaykoolzboy]

If straight line performance is everything

Tesla P100D will be the best car ever. (hey, they don't even use gas)
Dodge Hellcats will be the most valuable car ever. (you can get it for around 65 range)
Faraday will be more valuable than Ferrari. (even the Chiron or LaFerrari can't compete with those 0 - 60 time)

Fact is that most car enthusiasts won't pay too much attentions to those xx tenth of seconds from 0 - 60 time, it's about the experience, whole package, emotion and that smile on your face at the end. BMW m2 is definitely one of those car.

[Dav3]

Originally Posted by reppucci

You need to get over it!

Following your logic....
2016 Tesla Model S P90D 0-60 mph 2.8 seconds. 1/4 mile 10.9 seconds...

Would you rather drive your m240i or the Tesla?

Telsa doesn't have an exhaust, is not a sports car and has debatable interior quality. You buy Tesla for the innovation and the technology. This is not even Apples and Oranges anymore, its Apples and Tomatoes

It's more like going to the gym with your younger brother, outperforming him on every possible machine yet not being able to beat him on the bench press by a significant amount of weight. That's the feeling I'm getting...

I'm considering swapping my m240i with the M2, as its cheaper to upgrade than tune my car. Just wanted to understand what m2 owners take was on the matter

[zenmaster]

Originally Posted by davgia

I've got a question for you M2 owners...

Doesn't it slightly bother you that a slightly tuned m240i (say a Stage 1, Air Filter & DP) will absolutely outperform you on a straight line?

No. Your question doesn't make sense. Why would one even be in the market for an M2 with such a concern?

[Dav3]

Originally Posted by zenmaster

No. Your question doesn't make sense. Why would one even be in the market for an M2 with such a concern?

Because an M-division car gets outperformed by a non-M bmw variant.

Because in less than one-year BMW might decide to go with the S55 or the B58 for the M2 LCI to cover this gap.

I'm not debating that the M2 is better. I just don't understand how it doesn't excessively bother you M2 guys that BMW produced two cars with a lack of a major gap *in straight line speed

[Bluenose-2er]

Originally Posted by davgia

I just don't understand how it doesn't excessively bother you M2 guys that BMW produced two cars with a lack of a major gap

Lack of a major gap?

Thank you! I can now walk away from these M240i vs M2 and B58 vs N55 threads for good. You have made me realize we are talking two different languages, and it will never go anywhere

[Dav3]

Originally Posted by Bluenose-2er

Lack of a major gap?

Thanks you! I can now walk away from these M240i vs M2 and B58 vs N55 threads for good. You have made me realize we are talking two different languages, and it will never go anywhere

Context of the post revolved around straight-line speeds, hoped it would have been obvious

[AngryBaby]

Originally Posted by davgia

Because an M-division car gets outperformed by a non-M bmw variant.

Because in less than one-year BMW might decide to go with the S55 or the B58 for the M2 LCI to cover this gap.

I'm not debating that the M2 is better. I just don't understand how it doesn't excessively bother you M2 guys that BMW produced two cars with a lack of a major gap

The M2 is plenty fast enough in a straight line and excells in the twisties. Anyone who values straight-line speed above all else should probably shop for a different car.

The diff is a large part of what makes this car excellent.

[zenmaster]

Originally Posted by davgia

Because an M-division car gets outperformed by a non-M bmw variant.

But it's not outperformed. You're cherry picking.

Originally Posted by davgia

Because in less than one-year BMW might decide to go with the S55 or the B58 for the M2 LCI to cover this gap.

S55: Not without raising price and in the form of a special edition - economics. B58: Not so soon for an M version - historical precedent.

Originally Posted by davgia

I'm not debating that the M2 is better. I just don't understand how it doesn't excessively bother you M2 guys that BMW produced two cars with a lack of a major gap *in straight line speed

Probably because for some reason you're not considering the entire performance provided per dollar. And that gap between the two cars happens to be huge. Similarly equipped in the US market, they are about the same price so performance value goes to the M2. On top of that extra performance, you get a better feeling from driving the car.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by davgia

I've got a question for you M2 owners...
Doesn't it slightly bother you that a slightly tuned m240i (say a Stage 1, Air Filter & DP) will absolutely outperform you on a straight line?
Truth be telling as truth be told, most sport car owners have no clue on how to drive the car properly or how to get the most fun out of it.
The only real battleground normal people identify as a valid test is the straight line. It just blows my mind that an M-division car cannot outperform the m240i on the most popular benchmark for non-petrol head folk.
Don't get me wrong, I completely agree that the comparison between the two is Apples and Oranges. I've tracked the M2, it's a better car. But that straight-line performance gap is not something that I find easy to ignore.

Neither bothered, nor bored. There's a place for everyone under the sun.

[blackholescion]

Originally Posted by davgia

I've got a question for you M2 owners...

Doesn't it slightly bother you that a slightly tuned m240i (say a Stage 1, Air Filter & DP) will absolutely outperform you on a straight line?

Truth be telling as truth be told, most sport car owners have no clue on how to drive the car properly or how to get the most fun out of it.
The only real battleground normal people identify as a valid test is the straight line. It just blows my mind that an M-division car cannot outperform the m240i on the most popular benchmark for non-petrol head folk.

Don't get me wrong, I completely agree that the comparison between the two is Apples and Oranges. I've tracked the M2, it's a better car. But that straight-line performance gap is not something that I find easy to ignore.

Did it bother the E9/2 M3 guys that a slightly tuned 335 would absolutely blast them in a straight line? I'd venture to guess not.

There was an argument like this recently in the Subaru world when the WRX got the new motor and 265HP. It was faster to 60 because of not needing to shift into 3rd than the STi. However the STi has upgraded suspension, locking diff, better brakes, better trans, etc. The consensus was, you can tune a WRX but the sum of the parts in the STi was well worth the premium. And you can just tune that too if you wanted to. You want a WRX with 400HP? Better look into trans options as well. It got expensive very quickly.

As has been stated, for daily driving, sure, the 240 might be more comfortable and just as fast. But leave that realm and I know which one I'd have. If I bought the 240, every day I'd wonder what could have been with the upgraded components of the M2. Now I don't have to worry about it.

[PrematureApex]

Originally Posted by blackholescion

Did it bother the E9/2 M3 guys that a slightly tuned 335 would absolutely blast them in a straight line? I'd venture to guess not.

To be fair, the E90/2 had about 100 bhp over the 335 stock to stock. And, perhaps more importantly, an amazing high-revving, N/A, traditional ///M motor. It was a completely different character, as far as power delivery went. But sure, a tune-alone would give an N54 335 a low and midrange that the M3 couldn't touch, and just about equal it on the top end. Many people still would have preferred the glory that was that screaming V8 though.

Whereas the 240 and M2 are MUCH closer to one another right out of the box...particularly given how under-rated the B58 is. And neither engine, while both offering very good driveability, are very...ummm...racy? Both possess similar power delivery characteristics, neither one being like the great ///M engines of the past.

Now, of course, I think both are great cars in their own rights...with any preference between them going to the user. One is obviously much firmer/sporting than the other. The other a "better" daily driver for some.

But I don't object to the questions being brought up because I do think BMW cut it particularly close with these cars. I would have liked to have seen a slight turbo upgrade to this N55, or something...given the potency of the B58 they were about to release. At least when they dumped the N54 in the 1M, and put the N55 in the 135, 1M owners could fall back on their ability to make big power cheaply, whereas the 135 could no longer. They don't even have that anymore. It's reversed.

All-in-all, it's a pretty unprecedented situation for an M car to be in. At least from an engine perspective.

[rjn]

Originally Posted by blackholescion

Did it bother the E9/2 M3 guys that a slightly tuned 335 would absolutely blast them in a straight line? I'd venture to guess not.

There was an argument like this recently in the Subaru world when the WRX got the new motor and 265HP. It was faster to 60 because of not needing to shift into 3rd than the STi. However the STi has upgraded suspension, locking diff, better brakes, better trans, etc. The consensus was, you can tune a WRX but the sum of the parts in the STi was well worth the premium. And you can just tune that too if you wanted to. You want a WRX with 400HP? Better look into trans options as well. It got expensive very quickly.

As has been stated, for daily driving, sure, the 240 might be more comfortable and just as fast. But leave that realm and I know which one I'd have. If I bought the 240, every day I'd wonder what could have been with the upgraded components of the M2. Now I don't have to worry about it.

Agree. The other thing the M2 has going for it, that I rarely see discussed in these threads is the particular attention paid to designing the M2 for intended sporting use, like 30 minute track sessions. The additional cooling capacity and lubricant distribution under lateral Gs provide significant reliability (and ultimately performance) differences. The 240 may be quicker to 60 out of the pits, but let's see how the day goes if you really want to drive it for multiple sessions a day, and then back home afterwards. If you want to play at the track, you'll soon be looking at some not insignificant reliability mods...

I had a Z06 corvette for a few seasons back in the day. Fast as hell, but ultimately only fun and reliable at the track after a couple $K in additional cooling mods (engine oil, transmission, differential coolers, brake ducts).

I ultimately picked the M2 because of it's versatility - whether in the roles of being a really nice car I can take to the track , or a DD that's really fun to drive. Neither of those attributes is really at risk with an incremental engine change

My $0.02

[Bluenose-2er]

I couldn't walk away quite yet as a question occurred to me for other M2 owners.

Are there ANY current M2 owners out there who regret not going for the M240i (and saving a bit of scratch in the process)? For me, the M240i and its reviews came out while I could still walk away from my M2 order, and the thought never even crossed my mind.... and I plan on using it as my DD (except in the Canadian winter of course).

[Dav3]

Originally Posted by PrematureApex

At least when they dumped the N54 in the 1M, and put the N55 in the 135, 1M owners could fall back on their ability to make big power cheaply, whereas the 135 could no longer. They don't even have that anymore. It's reversed.

This.

M2 has much less leeway for performance enhancement unless you really start changing the big parts on the engine.

Engine wise, the b58 is already massively underrated by BMW. Add a piggyback, a downpipe and an air filter and it can easily compete with stock M4's.

Take an m240i, add coilovers, m4 LCA's, Limited slip and a few other upgrades... Would it be that much inferior to the M2? Obviously, It wouldn't make sense from a financial standpoint but it is definitely an interesting topic.

The real question, is really, to what extent can the M2 be considered a real 'M' car. Especially when compared to the historical predecessors in its pedigree.

I'm really not hating on the M2, its an extraordinary car. I'm just trying to figure out whether it's worth upgrading too from a m240i.

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by PrematureApex

To be fair, the E90/2 had about 100 bhp over the 335 stock to stock. And, perhaps more importantly, an amazing high-revving, N/A, traditional ///M motor. It was a completely different character, as far as power delivery went. But sure, a tune-alone would give an N54 335 a low and midrange that the M3 couldn't touch, and just about equal it on the top end. Many people still would have preferred the glory that was that screaming V8 though.

Whereas the 240 and M2 are MUCH closer to one another right out of the box...particularly given how under-rated the B58 is. And neither engine, while both offering very good driveability, are very...ummm...racy? Both possess similar power delivery characteristics, neither one being like the great ///M engines of the past.

Now, of course, I think both are great cars in their own rights...with any preference between them going to the user. One is obviously much firmer/sporting than the other. The other a "better" daily driver for some.

But I don't object to the questions being brought up because I do think BMW cut it particularly close with these cars. I would have liked to have seen a slight turbo upgrade to this N55, or something...given the potency of the B58 they were about to release. At least when they dumped the N54 in the 1M, and put the N55 in the 135, 1M owners could fall back on their ability to make big power cheaply, whereas the 135 could no longer. They don't even have that anymore. It's reversed.

All-in-all, it's a pretty unprecedented situation for an M car to be in. At least from an engine perspective.

Having had an E90 335i N54 6MT and after that an E90 M3 6MT I'm not so sure I agree with your statements. Actually I preffered the 335i IRL and my 335i was just as fast as a friend's RS4 V8 at that time(up to 240kmh/>150mph)...

... so there wasn't much real life difference 335i/M3 V8 imho.

Only on track/drifting the E90 M3 had its lsd but it also was rather understeery(vs 1M) and lacked torque. TBH I never understood why people loved E9x M3 so much.
Also having had an E46 M3 back in the days I 'd prefer that one any time over E9x M3...

Cheers
Robin

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by Bluenose-2er

I couldn't walk away quite yet as a question occurred to me for other M2 owners.

Are there ANY current M2 owners out there who regret not going for the M240i (and saving a bit of scratch in the process)? For me, the M240i and its reviews came out while I could still walk away from my M2 order, and the thought never even crossed my mind.... and I plan on using it as my DD (except in the Canadian winter of course).

No regrets, soundwise lookswise and being just a tad faster irl and a fair bit faster on any track. I need a sporty car, an M2 is really sporty(and just did NL-Germany-Switzerland and back no worries great daily) in any way.

Cheers
Robin

[blackholescion]

Originally Posted by davgia

This.

M2 has much less leeway for performance enhancement unless you really start changing the big parts on the engine.

Engine wise, the b58 is already massively underrated by BMW. Add a piggyback, a downpipe and an air filter and it can easily compete with stock M4's.

Take an m240i, add coilovers, m4 LCA's, Limited slip and a few other upgrades... Would it be that much inferior to the M2? Obviously, It wouldn't make sense from a financial standpoint but it is definitely an interesting topic.

The real question, is really, to what extent can the M2 be considered a real 'M' car. Especially when compared to the historical predecessors in its pedigree.

I'm really not hating on the M2, its an extraordinary car. I'm just trying to figure out whether it's worth upgrading too from a m240i.

An M2 doesn't just have an LSD. It has an M LSD. Even if you option the LSD on a 240, it's not the same LSD found in an M2/3/4. That having been said, probably not a huge difference for 95% of people. If you're maxing your car out at the track, then sure, maybe. But otherwise, I would say you should stay with the M240. It's 90% of the car for a lot less money and 100% of the car for a daily driver.

However, once you start optioning all the extras you get into M2 territory, like you said, and I'm agreeing here. If you're just looking at competing with an M2, why not buy an M2 in the first place? You can put 10 grand into an M240 to match the M2. But then you have M2 prices which is arguably a better base, motor arguments aside.

I'd say it's no more or less a real M car than the 1M was. Sure the 1M had headroom, but they were both developed for a similar purpose. I'd even argue the M2 is more of an M than the 1M on motor alone *ducks*. The argument here being the N55 in the M2 is modified whereas the N54 was not. Point is, if the 1M was a real M car and not just due to it's exclusivity, then the M2 is as well. And yes, I'm just bitter that my circumstance wasn't such to buy a 1M 5 years ago .

[PrematureApex]

Originally Posted by Robin_NL

Having had an E90 335i N54 6MT and after that an E90 M3 6MT I'm not so sure I agree with your statements. Actually I preffered the 335i IRL and my 335i was just as fast as a friend's RS4 V8 at that time(up to 240kmh/>150mph)...

... so there wasn't much real life difference 335i/M3 V8 imho.

Only on track/drifting the E90 M3 had its lsd but it also was rather understeery(vs 1M) and lacked torque. TBH I never understood why people loved E9x M3 so much.
Also having had an E46 M3 back in the days I 'd prefer that one any time over E9x M3...

Cheers
Robin

While I don't think the majority of M buyers would agree...I can certainly see how one would prefer the punch of the 335 for an everyday driver. Winding out that V8 to scoot around on a daily commute can get to be a bit much. One is a better commuter engine, the other more of a weekend blast kinda thing.

My S54 get walked all over by my N54...but it still feels special.

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by davgia

Take an m240i, add coilovers, m4 LCA's, Limited slip and a few other upgrades... Would it be that much inferior to the M2? Obviously, It wouldn't make sense from a financial standpoint but it is definitely an interesting topic.

You forgot thew wide fender kit otherwise it looks a tad bland imho...

Alright, wouldn't it be fair to upgrade/tune the M2 as well? I think so.
N55 bigger turbo ic dp etc....

I have just one good advise: Keep your M240i, M2 isn't the car for you....

Cheers
Robin

[blackholescion]

One more thing. A lot of manufacturers rate motors at the lowest common denominator to avoid lawsuits (see the 1999 Mustang Cobra). They test 10 motors and if one makes 270 and the rest make 300, they rate it at 270. I don't know how BMW does it, but it can point to why some motors are more underrated than others.

[Dav3]

Originally Posted by blackholescion

However, once you start optioning all the extras you get into M2 territory, like you said, and I'm agreeing here. If you're just looking at competing with an M2, why not buy an M2 in the first place? You can put 10 grand into an M240 to match the M2. But then you have M2 prices which is arguably a better base, motor arguments aside.

Mods on m240i are expensive and will push me towards base m2 sticker price, I agree it would be more logical to just go with the M2.

Engine is the only variable that I'm not convinced about, especially with the possibility of BMW dumping the N55 in the near future with the LCI.

Originally Posted by Robin_NL

Alright, wouldn't it be fair to upgrade/tune the M2 as well? I think so.
N55 bigger turbo ic dp etc....

I have just one good advise: Keep your M240i, M2 isn't the car for you....

Have you looked at the average cost per upgrade for the M2 vs for the m240i?

If you start getting into modding the m2 you might as well go straight to S55 on the M4.

I've tracked both the M2 & the M4 and the difference is definitely more noticeable than between the m2 and the m240i.

I feel like many M2 owners on this post are hating on me for just making the comparison with the m240i. I'm just trying to have a constructive discussion here...