[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

No real car guy wants to drive stock. LOL

After all these decades, my phony enthusiasm has finally been laid bare.

[Maynard]

Ditto that. I used to be a real car guy, dreaming of someday converting my car (a 240z) into something with at least 90hp/liter - and if I'd won the lottery, computerized fuel injection and a modded factory turbo setup that wouldn't blow a gasket at more than 15lbs of boost. Now I settle for stock....

[BarryJI]

Originally Posted by Maynard

Ditto that. I used to be a real car guy, dreaming of someday converting my car (a 240z) into something with at least 90hp/liter - and if I'd won the lottery, computerized fuel injection and a modded factory turbo setup that wouldn't blow a gasket at more than 15lbs of boost. Now I settle for stock....

The problem is that the phenomenon of leasing has made manufacturers keen to de-tune their cars in stock form so that they are not on the hook for a huge amount of post-lease maintenance. Tuning a good engine from stock is more about releasing its full potential rather than tweaking it beyond safe parameters. I don't like all the lag and hesitation in stock engines, or the understeer in stock suspensions. With a car as good as a 2-Series BMW, I'd always want to tune both engine and suspension...as long as it's not a lease!

[Maynard]

I'm sorry but 120-140hp/liter is pushing things IMHO, not holding back (if you also want 60-100k miles out of the motor). Many manufacturers are topping this mightily in the quest for HP ratings - I think Ford has over 150hp/L from that 'brawny' 2L motor (now turning up in droves for bore-shift and gasket blowouts); Audi and MB are also pushing up over 160/L on their sport/AMG models - hardly 'holding back'. I'm suspicious that these motors have a very carefully designed warranty life (aka lease term?), and are giving it all up in that period if used anywhere near their capacity. And isn't 'post-lease maintenance' usually paid for by the second purchaser?

I get the attraction of a simple plug-in that adds 20-50hp; might do one myself someday. But anybody who tries to tell you that 'unlocking' all that Hp doesn't come with a direct reduction in lifespan and reliability is conning you. No problem to wring almost unlimited power out with a turbo (check out one of those 900hp Supras or Silvias), just be prepared to put high dollar internals into it, and rebuild after a few thousand hours at best.

[CE750Jockey]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

After all these decades, my phony enthusiasm has finally been laid bare.

Get another exhaust pipe, and then come back to us!

[BarryJI]

Originally Posted by Maynard

I'm sorry but 120-140hp/liter is pushing things IMHO, not holding back (if you also want 60-100k miles out of the motor). Many manufacturers are topping this mightily in the quest for HP ratings - I think Ford has over 150hp/L from that 'brawny' 2L motor (now turning up in droves for bore-shift and gasket blowouts); Audi and MB are also pushing up over 160/L on their sport/AMG models - hardly 'holding back'. I'm suspicious that these motors have a very carefully designed warranty life (aka lease term?), and are giving it all up in that period if used anywhere near their capacity. And isn't 'post-lease maintenance' usually paid for by the second purchaser?

I get the attraction of a simple plug-in that adds 20-50hp; might do one myself someday. But anybody who tries to tell you that 'unlocking' all that Hp doesn't come with a direct reduction in lifespan and reliability is conning you. No problem to wring almost unlimited power out with a turbo (check out one of those 900hp Supras or Silvias), just be prepared to put high dollar internals into it, and rebuild after a few thousand hours at best.

The manufacturer is on the hook if the necessary maintenance is not attributable to over-enthusiastic use on the part of the lessee (although of course they could simply sell the car "as is" but CPO would be a different matter).

I would only Dinan-tune a BMW because of the relatively conservative nature of the tunes, their careful testing and, of course, the extra layer of warranty. There are people all over these boards who tune the living daylights out of their cars, sometimes even while they are within the warranty period; I wouldn't do that but I stand by my argument that a reputable tune for street rather than track is a great and relatively safe way to bring out the potential of these engines, which roll off the assembly line all bound up. Certainly, I would find my 228i to be a bore and a disappointment to drive in a spirited manner without the tune; too much lag and a less than fully committed throttle response in general.

[xantdieselx]

Originally Posted by VIN240i13

Unfortunately scenarios where a self-installed tune goes bad easily explains why others would avoid such a painful experience and stay in stock mode and not experiment with their car, I was one of them for a while.

However if this scenario involved the Stage 1 and it was purchased and installed at the dealership who is also a Dinan dealer the end result would be a more positive experience for the owner and the car would have been repaired at no cost to the owner.

Sometimes trying to save a few bucks up front, ends up costing more in the long-run, the phase “you get what you pay for” truly comes into play. The extra cost of the dealer installed Stage 1 is worth every penny knowing that if something does go wrong your basically covered one way or another.

Unfortunately, I've seen more than enough threads recently where Dinan customer service has gone down the tubes since Steve Dinan left. In one thread there was an issue and neither the Dealer nor the owner were able to get Dinan to respond. Some people said that they were in the process of moving but then other people chimed in and said they had experienced the same type of issues pre-move.

IDK, it's just not worth it to me IMO. Yes the added power is great but there's always the "what if" in the back of your mind. Maybe I'm in the minority but I never feel like my car "needs" more power. More like I can't use the power it has to it's full potential on a daily basis.

[Ron Jeffries]

I am not a real car guy. My first car was a Jaguar XK150. I've had two of those and an XK120. I've had an Audi Coupe, 4000GT and some fat Audi 600 or something that was a serious mistake. I traded that for a Mitsubishi Eclipse. I've had a Porsche 944 Turbo, a 928, and a 911 Carrera 4. I've had two Miatas, a Mercedes 350SLK, a BMW 320i, two Z3s, a Z4, a 335i convertible, an M Coupe, a 135is and now an M240i xDrive. Oh, wait, also a 454 Vette, a 66 427 convertible, some kind of Firebird Trans Am. I am not a real car guy.

[VIN240i13]

Originally Posted by xantdieselx

Unfortunately, I've seen more than enough threads recently where Dinan customer service has gone down the tubes since Steve Dinan left. In one thread there was an issue and neither the Dealer nor the owner were able to get Dinan to respond. Some people said that they were in the process of moving but then other people chimed in and said they had experienced the same type of issues pre-move.

IDK, it's just not worth it to me IMO. Yes the added power is great but there's always the "what if" in the back of your mind. Maybe I'm in the minority but I never feel like my car "needs" more power. More like I can't use the power it has to it's full potential on a daily basis.

You make many valid points and I can’t argue with your logic; however it all really boils down to personal preference and comfort level knowing that maybe there’s a chance that “what if” scenario may happen.

I had a rather long and detailed conversation with my service manage before opting in for the dealer purchase and install. He assured me (verbal and in writing) that any issues to the car related to the Stage 1 install would be covered even if Dinan fails to respond.

I am enjoying the power bump, it lessens the pain of knowing I should have waited and purchased an M2. In the mean time I will definitely keep notice for any growing issues and if my comfort level start to shrink I will have the dealer remove the Stage 1 tune.

[BEM-S4]

Originally Posted by Ron Jeffries

I am not a real car guy. My first car was a Jaguar XK150. I've had two of those and an XK120. I've had an Audi Coupe, 4000GT and some fat Audi 600 or something that was a serious mistake. I traded that for a Mitsubishi Eclipse. I've had a Porsche 944 Turbo, a 928, and a 911 Carrera 4. I've had two Miatas, a Mercedes 350SLK, a BMW 320i, two Z3s, a Z4, a 335i convertible, an M Coupe, a 135is and now an M240i xDrive. Oh, wait, also a 454 Vette, a 66 427 convertible, some kind of Firebird Trans Am. I am not a real car guy.

Not a real car guy either. Spent the past few nights on the sofa after saying getting another car wouldn't really impact us financially if we cut out going out 2x per month

Apparently more cars is not always the answer to everything.

[xantdieselx]

Originally Posted by VIN240i13

You make many valid points and I can’t argue with your logic; however it all really boils down to personal preference and comfort level knowing that maybe there’s a chance that “what if” scenario may happen.

I had a rather long and detailed conversation with my service manage before opting in for the dealer purchase and install. He assured me (verbal and in writing) that any issues to the car related to the Stage 1 install would be covered even if Dinan fails to respond.

I am enjoying the power bump, it lessens the pain of knowing I should have waited and purchased an M2. In the mean time I will definitely keep notice for any growing issues and if my comfort level start to shrink I will have the dealer remove the Stage 1 tune.

In your case that's perfect. Especially getting it in writing from the service department. Enjoy it.

[Rayscott]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

In this instance, it appears the only issue is with the piggyback device. You can install/remove it in a matter of a few minutes. Nothing is broken on his car and I can't say I've heard of a piggyback causing something to break unless of course it was either installed wrong or it broke something in the drivetrain because of the increased power. I've read of numerous accounts where Dinan piggybacks (all types) and BMS units that have issues, typically with the wiring harness. The owners or dealerships simply sent them back for replacement.

I totally respect the idea of just staying stock or not screwing around with adding piggybacks or tunes to these cars. I'm a firm believer in if you want a lot more power, then buy a faster stock car in the first place. Flash tuning these cars is the ideal solution, but it's still in it's infancy and I would be worried about getting help in the event something goes wrong with the flash. With the piggyback, you simply can remove it if things go south. Sure, it's not the best solution of all out power and in some cases, perfect driveabiiity, but it's easy to remove and go back to stock.

The gains these cars make from these simple Dinan Sport and JB+ units is impressive and I can attest to that. For the money, it's really hard to beat. A M235 with a catted downpipe and Sport/JB+ is a damn quick street car for most people. Same goes for the M240. A M235/240 with these mods is easily faster than 99+% of the cars on the road. I'm definitely more of the type to focus on looks, improving driveabiity, and marginally improving power and handling without dramatically compromising reliability or driveability. I want the whole package, don't want to compromise the overall dynamics, but still want to make it my own and make it a bit better than what the automaker gave me.

No real car guy wants to drive stock. LOL

I'm a real car guy and in my 74 years have owned fast cars (modded and non modded) So if I prefer stock its because that is my preference real car guy.

[XutvJet]

Wow, a lot crusty old guys up in this joint regarding my statement that "No real car guy wants to drive stock."

I find it very hard to believe that someone that's passionate about cars doesn't do things to their own cars to make them better like the obvious stuff such as wheels, a better sounding muffler, perhaps some lowering springs, better dampers, better brakes, a better stereo, etc. I'm not necessarily talking about over the top mods like a bigger turbo, a ported head, an LSX swap, turning a 13 second car into a 10 second car, etc. Some cars need a lot of help, some not so much, but I would think most car guys want to make their cars their own in some way to set it a part from the crowd.

I take the Chip Foose approach to my cars when improving the looks meaning I work on minor body enhancements to make it look the way I thought it should come from the factory all the while accentuating it's existing body lines. Same goes for suspension and power. Just minor work. I call it OEM+. That means the car is easily recognizable, but people will say "Why does this car look so good compared to the others I've seen?". The 2 series is a stellar car in stock form, but I think there are some things that can easily be improved on.

I learned my lesson years ago that screwing with too much often leads to all sorts of issues, many aftermarket parts fit like crap and/or are full of compromises, and going beyond 20% in power/handling draws out chassis limitations. It's an expensive and headache-full rabbit hole to go into.

I want an air cooled 993 911 (I will have one soon) and I'll modify that thing with a quality suspension, better wheels and tires, a better steering wheel, and exhaust to hear it roar. Nothing over the top, but certainly better.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by Maynard

I'm sorry but 120-140hp/liter is pushing things

I get the attraction of a simple plug-in that adds 20-50hp; might do one myself someday. But anybody who tries to tell you that 'unlocking' all that Hp doesn't come with a direct reduction in lifespan and reliability is conning you. No problem to wring almost unlimited power out with a turbo (check out one of those 900hp Supras or Silvias), just be prepared to put high dollar internals into it, and rebuild after a few thousand hours at best.

Amen to the HP/liter statement. There's very good reason why supercars and exotics are only pushing 90 to 130hp and those motors are incredibly expensive and are designed for that usage. There are very few cars out there pushing 150+hp/liter in stock form and those that are, are quite pricey. There's a good reason for that.

Too many guys get a turbo car and see how easy it is to extract a ton of power with minimal cost and effort. Just because you can easily get 600hp+ out a N54/N55 with turbo upgrade and fueling mods doesn't mean the rest of the motor will be very happy with it. IMO, once you go past around 140hp/liter on the N54/N55, you're walking on egg shells as you start drawing out the limitations of the various safeguards, bearings, rods, pistons, cooling system, transmission, and differential.

As for those 900hp Supras, they too have their issues. The short block can handle it, but a lot of the other components can't like components in the head, drivetrain, cooling system, etc.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by Mr Carrots

It's annoying knowing this car could easily be pushing 400+ whp stock but for the bean counters and increasingly nonsensical government regulations

For me, map 3 on 93 was "meh, is this it?" And it wasn't until adding meth that the car woke up. I couldn't imagine going back to stock

The B58 cannot reliably push 400whp (470hp at the flywheel). Motors have mileage goals. Pushing a B58 that hard would require signficiant upgrades to the drivetrain and cooling system plus many enhancements to the motor to survive in the long term. More power per liter equals a lot more stress and heat and all that compromises longevity. Sounds like you should have a bought a faster car in the first place because that ZF 8AT and xdrive are being compromised running that much power and you'll certainly have problems and very expensive repairs in the future, just like so many have had pushing big numbers on the automatic and xdrives. There's very good reason why guys with high powered turbo BMW gravitate towards 6MTs. It's not because they're faster, that's for sure LOL

[morphomeman]

Ever heard of a tuned Ferrari Daytona?
Real car guys ALWAYS drive stock.
It's the car the way it was designed to be.

[overcoil]

Originally Posted by morphomeman

Ever heard of a tuned Ferrari Daytona?
Real car guys ALWAYS drive stock.
It's the car the way it was designed to be.

N.A.R.T. Competizione - but I know what your saying.

https://www.classicdriver.com/en/car...na/1969/339961

The really interesting thing is - Keno Brothers. Read this:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile....stake.amp.html

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by morphomeman

Ever heard of a tuned Ferrari Daytona?
Real car guys ALWAYS drive stock.
It's the car the way it was designed to be.

Oh, so now we're going to bring multi-million dollar ultra rare cars, that no one in their right mind would consider driving, into this debate Yeah, you'd also be pretty crazy to mod a 959 as well. I figured we were talking more typical, sub $150k cars here.

Very few "real car guys" own cars like the Dakota. They're investments tucked away on a display and wiped down with diapers. Come on, man. A real car guy has a modded 1972 911 that he beats on for weekend fun. Watch any Perspicuous video to get a frame of reference https://petrolicious.com/

[socotra123]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

The B58 cannot reliably push 400whp (470hp at the flywheel). Motors have mileage goals. Pushing a B58 that hard would require signficiant upgrades to the drivetrain and cooling system plus many enhancements to the motor to survive in the long term. More power per liter equals a lot more stress and heat and all that compromises longevity. Sounds like you should have a bought a faster car in the first place because that ZF 8AT and xdrive are being compromised running that much power and you'll certainly have problems and very expensive repairs in the future, just like so many have had pushing big numbers on the automatic and xdrives. There's very good reason why guys with high powered turbo BMW gravitate towards 6MTs. It's not because they're faster, that's for sure LOL

what's the basis for this assumption?

[bimmerfile]

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by socotra123

what's the basis for this assumption?

The B58 has adopted many of the design elements of the M3/M4 S55 motor like air/liquid intercooling and a closed deck block. The standard issue S55 makes around 420whp and 400wtq. That motor runs twin turbos and a ton more heat management systems. Sure, some are to compensate for racing, others are there for motor longevity because of the big power. Yes, you can turn up the wick on a B58 and get a near S55 like 400whp, but in the long-term, the motor and turbo aren't going to be happy about it. If BMW intended the B58 to make 400whp, or basically 470hp at the flywheel, they would have certainly gone with twins to reduce the strain on the turbo to meet long-term reliability goals. Same goes for the cooling and ignition systems. Also, the ZF 8AT in the M240 isn't designed for that amount of torque. It will certainly break if you drive the car hard on an often basis.

[Joe240]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

The B58 has adopted many of the design elements of the M3/M4 S55 motor like air/liquid intercooling and a closed deck block. The standard issue S55 makes around 420whp and 400wtq. That motor runs twin turbos and a ton more heat management systems. Sure, some are to compensate for racing, others are there for motor longevity because of the big power. Yes, you can turn up the wick on a B58 and get a near S55 like 400whp, but in the long-term, the motor and turbo aren't going to be happy about it. If BMW intended the B58 to make 400whp, or basically 470hp at the flywheel, they would have certainly gone with twins to reduce the strain on the turbo to meet long-term reliability goals. Same goes for the cooling and ignition systems. Also, the ZF 8AT in the M240 isn't designed for that amount of torque. It will certainly break if you drive the car hard on an often basis.

I haven’t dyno’d yet with my mods, and I’m not running meth so definitely under 400whp, but I’ve been romping on it strong for 16k miles and haven’t had a hiccup with the zf8 yet (knock on wood). I really think this tranny is built stronger than we think