[champignon]

Originally Posted by DSTR

My STI was a superb machine. My M2 is my daily here in Germany. You will be happy with an M2 in a mild climate such as yours. Do not hesitate.

My other is an M235i. Winter tires for both. Drive them. You live once.

I don't want my comments to be misinterpreted. As a piece of automotive engineering, the STi definitely IS a "superb machine."

And, the later versions had such touches as a leather interior, to better justify their cost.

The issues I had with the car were several, which I will list:

(1) Unbelievably ugly vehicle, only Subaru could build something like this, it really takes effort;
(2) Giant "Wing" which is entirely useless on any type of normal street usage or any usage under (I think) something like 115 mph; This thing makes every teenager within 100 miles want to drag race you, and this will happen repeatedly;
(3) Total absence of any sound insulation; the interior of the cabin is so noisy as to be nearly intolerable to anyone with semi-normal hearing;
(4) Poor choice of gear ratios; even in the top, 6th, gear, the revs are so high at highway speeds as to be nearly intolerable, from a noise and a vibration standpoint.
(5) Seating position made me think of what it would be like to work as a parcel van driver;

But it is really an example of exceptional engineering, especially the drivetrain, if you can tolerate these limitations.

On the plus side, the AWD was great, as was the manual transmission. The engine, although very dated, and horrible when it comes to gas mileage, nonetheless was very powerful.

[akkando]

Originally Posted by 3geekfamily

Thanks for the comments, everyone!

No one ever said anything about needing AWD - just that it’s preferred. Something about an STi, it just plain doesn’t believe in rain.

I had read some comments when the M2 first came out about it being a bit iffy in the rain at highway speeds, due to the width of the tires. It sounds like those initial reports were a bit overblown.

Today was an absolutely perfect weather day, and yes - while the STi was fantastic, and M2 would have likely been an order of magnitude better.

Thanks again!

Those reports are fake news. Try to find a post on this forum about it being iffy on the highway in the rain on either set of tires it might come with. I have not seen it.



You were probably victim of the stock bad car journalism when they don't feel like doing work. "RWD performance car? Oh uh, good on back roads, a little rough on anything but the smoothest roads, not the car you want in the rain, probably not a great choice as a daily driver, light on storage" Just the same stock bullshit they would say about any similar car to fill in their cons list without having to actually do any thinking or even drive it.

[3geekfamily]

Originally Posted by akkando

Those reports are fake news. Try to find a post on this forum about it being iffy on the highway in the rain on either set of tires it might come with. I have not seen it.



You were probably victim of the stock bad car journalism when they don't feel like doing work. "RWD performance car? Oh uh, good on back roads, a little rough on anything but the smoothest roads, not the car you want in the rain, probably not a great choice as a daily driver, light on storage" Just the same stock bullshit they would say about any similar car to fill in their cons list without having to actually do any thinking or even drive it.

Nah, pretty certain I read it on this forum right here - but I agree that it was either sensationalism of some kind, or an insanely skittish driver. My wife’s C450 (pushing 4000lbs ) is rocking MPSS tires, as was my M235i, and while they’re certainly a bit narrower, the MPSS is definitely a great rain tire. I can’t imagine ~30mm more tread making a monumental difference.

[3geekfamily]

Originally Posted by champignon

I don't want my comments to be misinterpreted. As a piece of automotive engineering, the STi definitely IS a "superb machine."

And, the later versions had such touches as a leather interior, to better justify their cost.

The issues I had with the car were several, which I will list:

(1) Unbelievably ugly vehicle, only Subaru could build something like this, it really takes effort;
(2) Giant "Wing" which is entirely useless on any type of normal street usage or any usage under (I think) something like 115 mph; This thing makes every teenager within 100 miles want to drag race you, and this will happen repeatedly;
(3) Total absence of any sound insulation; the interior of the cabin is so noisy as to be nearly intolerable to anyone with semi-normal hearing;
(4) Poor choice of gear ratios; even in the top, 6th, gear, the revs are so high at highway speeds as to be nearly intolerable, from a noise and a vibration standpoint.
(5) Seating position made me think of what it would be like to work as a parcel van driver;

But it is really an example of exceptional engineering, especially the drivetrain, if you can tolerate these limitations.

On the plus side, the AWD was great, as was the manual transmission. The engine, although very dated, and horrible when it comes to gas mileage, nonetheless was very powerful.

Another thing making this a tough decision, though I’m confident enough now to have already dropped a deposit, the 2018 fixed almost all of these issues for me. And, I have a limited with lip spoiler... no park bench for me, thanks! Also nice is that the brakes no longer feel like they’re made out of sponges. The 2018 is definitely the best of the pack - I’ve owned a 2004, 2013, and now the 2018.

Best part though, is that I’m barely losing anything on my trade. I love the resale value on the STi!

[mtoosexy]

I am getting ready to spend between $60,000 and $125,000 in order to get away from AWD, I have an RS4 in the garage that has only seen rain 3 times in 10 years and never seen snow.
Literally, in any car I have ever driven in the rain, NEVER did I think "boy, I wish this was AWD" or "glad that AWD saved me from the rain"... guess I don't push cars hard enough in the rain... or I enjoy the lack of traction
good luck in your decision making.
RS5 would be a great car if it were offered in manual and 80/20 rear bias... neither of which is

[champignon]

Originally Posted by 3geekfamily

Best part though, is that I’m barely losing anything on my trade. I love the resale value on the STi!

Similarly, I got a great trade in value for my 2 year old STi a year and a half ago. The VW dealer who took it in ended up having to reduce the price and the car sat on their lot for several months, but fortunately, that was their problem :-) I only put ~6000 miles on it in 2 years, which gives some idea of how much I enjoyed driving it.

[JustChris]

For me DCT was ok as a DD but as the miles grew, to be honest it became a bit of a pain. Still I'm taking 25,000 mpa on UK naff surfaces too.

I'm heading off in search of comfort now.

[Bt12]

Originally Posted by DSTR

You live once.

The duration of that life is more important as the quality of that life... plus the car is a such a small portion of the quality of that life.

[Loupeitak]

I daily my M2 and live in one of the rainiest cities of my country. Sure I can't push the car hard or have proper fun, but it definitely works as a good daily.

[DSTR]

Originally Posted by Bt12

The duration of that life is more important as the quality of that life... plus the car is a such a small portion of the quality of that life.

For you possibly but car is very important to me.......to each his own as they say.

[Bt12]

Originally Posted by DSTR

For you possibly but car is very important to me.......to each his own as they say.

I just meant there’s other things like... family, wife, kids, good food, travel ... retirement etc. cars are so temporary... and it can easily be replaced


But I get you

[rich8566]

I came from an all wheel drive Audi A4. When I had the Audi I swore I would never ever be without AWD again. Then I moved to a string of RWD BMWs. First was a pair of E90 335i BMWs - 2007 and 2011. Then a 14' M235i and now a '17 M2. Since I've gone RWD BMW, I've never looked back.

[akkando]

Did get a little bit sideways last night on wet road going from second to third in sport+ when I was almost going flat out, but I wouldn't normally drive like that on a wet road.

[M+M]

my logic is the reverse. I have a Subaru 4wd race car for tarmac rallies. Rain or shine pushing the limits. M2 is a daily. I am in it most days and for the large part not pushing the limits in traffic etc but its nice to be in a car that feels good in build, sound, looks, heated seats etc. And every now and then its a blast too. When its raining there is absolutely no chance I am going to be pushing it on a public road.

[Motivate]

Originally Posted by 3geekfamily

So, I'm having a hard time pulling the trigger on the M2, but I think it's probably illogical.

To give you a bit of background, I'm currently in an STI, which is an all-around fun car, but an absolute blast in the rain. Prior cars include a Mk7 GTI, M235i, Lexus IS F, etc. I enjoy a car that feels good overall, but really like the confidence-inspiring traction of AWD, especially in the rain, but I'm definitely used to handling RWD cars with a good bit of power.

Of course - I don't doubt for a second that I'll be glad I'm driving the M2 when it's dry and reasonably warm outside. Of course, that's all that the reviews ever really touch upon, too. Hey, the car is fantastic on the track, and it doesn't fall apart when you take it on the B-roads. That's definitely great to know, but, unfortunately, I don't commute to work via VIR.

So, I know there are a few people out there who have and have had STIs, come from Audis, etc. Do you regret giving up AWD every time it rains? I'm sure it makes up for it when it's dry - but pulling out in traffic, standing water, hydroplaning, etc... how bad is it, really? I'm assuming that it's not terrible, since traction control is insanely good these days, but really need to hear the opinions of some of you who aren't trying to be tail-out all the time.


Thanks!

The modern electronics will be more than enough for RWD or FWD in the rain. The only time you'll get in trouble is if you go crazy in the rain, but why would you do that?

[Motivate]

Originally Posted by rich8566

I came from an all wheel drive Audi A4. When I had the Audi I swore I would never ever be without AWD again. Then I moved to a string of RWD BMWs. First was a pair of E90 335i BMWs - 2007 and 2011. Then a 14' M235i and now a '17 M2. Since I've gone RWD BMW, I've never looked back.

As good as AWDs are nowadays, RWDs will always be the enthusiasts' choice. There is a reason why they still make cars like the LaFerrari a RWD.

[blackholescion]

Originally Posted by ryem3

Interesting comments. The car lights up the rear tires in first and second gear at will. If course it is safe, but BMW traction control is among the worst, the most primitive out there. It comes on all the time. To see the difference, just test drove a Porsche turbo or a McLaren 570s. Granted, these cars are not in the same league, but they will show you how traction control can work.

Not sure how you can say this. It might be the worst for spirited driving at the basic setting, but you can always turn it off or put it in M dynamic mode which is actually really good.

As for the regular traction control, it is designed to make sure you don't crash. Period. Don't believe me? Go do a skid pad at the Performance Delivery Center, keep your foot buried to the floor, and keep your tires on the yellow line. You will feel the car cut power, transfer power to the outside or inside wheel, and it will be really really really easy to keep the car driving in a circle. It's nothing short of idiot proof and extremely confidence inspiring that the car will sort itself out...just in case...


To OP: I went in on the M2 from a 2006 STi. Living in NC, I don't notice a massive change in terms of rainy weather. Obviously I would never give my car the beans in the rain (STi included) and corner as hard, but for regular daily driving, the M2 is just as good. I drove to the dealer the day we had the heavy rain from Hurricane Matthew and didn't have any issues with hydroplaning or standing water or anything like that. Obviously everyone drives slow in those conditions so that helped. I stuck to 55-60 and it was totally fine. This was on the continental tires.

Don't try to drive it when it's cold out on summer tires (something I *could* do in my STi but didn't regularly) because you have zero, and I mean zero traction.

[3geekfamily]

Originally Posted by blackholescion

Not sure how you can say this. It might be the worst for spirited driving at the basic setting, but you can always turn it off or put it in M dynamic mode which is actually really good.

As for the regular traction control, it is designed to make sure you don't crash. Period. Don't believe me? Go do a skid pad at the Performance Delivery Center, keep your foot buried to the floor, and keep your tires on the yellow line. You will feel the car cut power, transfer power to the outside or inside wheel, and it will be really really really easy to keep the car driving in a circle. It's nothing short of idiot proof and extremely confidence inspiring that the car will sort itself out...just in case...


To OP: I went in on the M2 from a 2006 STi. Living in NC, I don't notice a massive change in terms of rainy weather. Obviously I would never give my car the beans in the rain (STi included) and corner as hard, but for regular daily driving, the M2 is just as good. I drove to the dealer the day we had the heavy rain from Hurricane Matthew and didn't have any issues with hydroplaning or standing water or anything like that. Obviously everyone drives slow in those conditions so that helped. I stuck to 55-60 and it was totally fine. This was on the continental tires.

Don't try to drive it when it's cold out on summer tires (something I *could* do in my STi but didn't regularly) because you have zero, and I mean zero traction.

That should be pretty darn relevant to me, since I’m also in NC. Thanks!

[Dblaz]

If it helps, my buddy at work who is a die-hard Audi guy (went from A4, had an S4, just got a new A4) and who swears by AWD, absolutely loves my M2. He's converted...and wants to get one bad.

[HandmadeShifts]

I daily my 6MT M2, most of the time, in sports+ mode.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by 3geekfamily

So, I'm having a hard time pulling the trigger on the M2, but I think it's probably illogical.

To give you a bit of background, I'm currently in an STI, which is an all-around fun car, but an absolute blast in the rain. Prior cars include a Mk7 GTI, M235i, Lexus IS F, etc. I enjoy a car that feels good overall, but really like the confidence-inspiring traction of AWD, especially in the rain, but I'm definitely used to handling RWD cars with a good bit of power.

Of course - I don't doubt for a second that I'll be glad I'm driving the M2 when it's dry and reasonably warm outside. Of course, that's all that the reviews ever really touch upon, too. Hey, the car is fantastic on the track, and it doesn't fall apart when you take it on the B-roads. That's definitely great to know, but, unfortunately, I don't commute to work via VIR.

So, I know there are a few people out there who have and have had STIs, come from Audis, etc. Do you regret giving up AWD every time it rains? I'm sure it makes up for it when it's dry - but pulling out in traffic, standing water, hydroplaning, etc... how bad is it, really? I'm assuming that it's not terrible, since traction control is insanely good these days, but really need to hear the opinions of some of you who aren't trying to be tail-out all the time.


Thanks!

I'm a track guy. I got a chance to drive the 1M at a BMW event before it was produced.

It rained all day. Twelve people from different countries and we all got to drive the 1M on the streets , on track, and at an Autocross course.

They insisted we leave the traction control setting alone and the car was on Michelin ps1 Street tires. They were the top tire of the day like the Michelin SS was when the M2 came out.


With traction control off the 1M can be a handful and is known for being twitchy at the rear , however traction control on will keep the car in check absolutely in the rain. I drove the 1M on track in the rain at over 130mph in this event and it was Rock solid even through S curves at over 100mph.

While I have decades of track time .. the other eleven drivers had never been on a track and many of them had never driven a 340 hp car. No one put a wheel wrong all day.

In sum, yes, you are being 100 percent illogical.
The M2 won't be a handful ever unless you are simply trying to be a ham or are totally hamfisted. When you want to have fun you even have an MDM mode. Turn the traction control all the way off and you still have a confidence inspiring RWD chassis that one can recover easily in.

PS. I've owned a Subaru Legacy GT AWD. It was the most boring car. Fun in a straight line. Plowed into corners. In Snow it had so much traction it was actually boring because it never had the power to really ever get the tail out which you can do in the STI with the cool man differential. On sunny DRY days you couldn't even chirp the tires because the AWD. :

[Transfer]

You guys chiming in with some confidence from your almost always dry climates crack me up. I'd love to go on a spirited drive with any of you in the RWD car of your choice vs me in my M235xi on a nice soggy cold day with typical old slick US pavement.

Yes cars like the M2 can do just fine in the wet, especially due to the high level of control allowed, but they don't thrive. It's all about where you live, the climate you drive in, and the roads you drive on.