[Rosseau]

Purely hypothetical of course:

Assuming a stock M235/240 and an unschooled driver; doubling the posted limit on a good freeway ramp is approaching 8/10ths?

Nothing like totally broadcasting my ignorance

[madmax240]

going fast in a straight line has nothing to do with 8/10ths, 9/10ths, etc.

taking the car to the limits of adhesion (traction), is. it's all about cornering and it's a lot more complicated than just saying x means y. my "simple" rule is, if you're making the tyres squeal when you corner, it's about 6 or 7 tenths. when you get a slight oversteer (or understeer), then you're around 9.5 or 10 tenths. if you really slide it, then you're over.

[Maynard]

You should try an HPDE track day - it will completely rewrite all this armchair stuff for you in one session.

[ScottAndrew]

Originally Posted by Rosseau

Purely hypothetical of course:

Assuming a stock M235/240 and an unschooled driver; doubling the posted limit on a good freeway ramp is approaching 8/10ths?

Nothing like totally broadcasting my ignorance

In terms of driving, 0/10ths. All you did was plant right foot and sit there, motionless

[MarcoZandrini]

Originally Posted by Maynard

You should try an HPDE track day - it will completely rewrite all this armchair stuff for you in one session.

[Rosseau]

I meant "8/10th" of available traction. It's true many on-ramps do not include curves!

Mid Ohio charges $339, but it is the only safe way, I understand. But I appreciate that "squeal the tires" benchmark

[Rolf14]

Originally Posted by Rosseau

I meant "8/10th" of available traction. It's true many on-ramps do not include curves!

Mid Ohio charges $339, but it is the only safe way, I understand. But I appreciate that "squeal the tires" benchmark

Autocross is a cheaper alternative, and it is safe.

As for tires squealing (x/10th), it depends on your tires (summer v. all-season, etc.) and the pavement material, oily road surfaces, camber, etc. Your 235/240 will first understeer. If you train (autocross or HPDE) you will learn to use the gas pedal so as to make it go into a 4-wheel drift -- and even more squealing. But please, do not try it on an on-ramp, with curbing and other traffic that can ruin your day.

As for learning, my sons attended the "Street Survival" training and I stayed with them. Amazing! Even I learned new things about car control, even though I could not go drive the car.

[TajoMan]

I would say if you pull 1 G in any direction while driving, it will 'feel' very fast.

As mentioned, Auto x is very cheap and safe way to explore the limit of your car.

20~30 mph feels like 80 mph.

[XutvJet]

Autocross. It's a blast and you'll quickly learn handling dynamics at slower speeds and it's generally easy on the car, brakes, and tires. Autocross feels MUCH faster than accelerating in a straight line.

6MT. There's much more involvement and it will give more of a sensation of speed and drama, whether you're going straight or on a track. The auto is quicker and faster in a drag race and track, but the involvement of the 6MT requires way more concentration and input from the driver. There's more chassis movement and shift shock. All that plays into a sensation of speed.

Tires - Solid summer tires like the OEM MPSS tires or MPS4 tires are a must. Higher limits.

LSD - No further comment here.


I can drive my M235 6MT with an LSD near it's limits on the street (vacant) and the car is pretty neutral depending assuming fine-tuned throttle application and what you're expecting of the front end. The M235/240 on the right tires and LSD is a very capable handler and the limits aren't so high that if you get into trouble, you're doomed. Compared to some of the cars out there now, it's limits are pretty low comparatively speaking, but I prefer my cars that way so that I can enjoy them on the street and during occasional track use.

With that said, most drivers don't know how to drive normally or during performance driving. They have not a clue about what's too much and what's too little. They also have no touch or feel to what the car is doing and/or is alluding to doing.

[Zwei]

Fast is the nanosecond preceding too fast. Too fast is when something bad happens. Anything slower than fast is practice for going fast.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by Rolf14

Autocross is a cheaper alternative, and it is safe.

As for tires squealing (x/10th), it depends on your tires (summer v. all-season, etc.) and the pavement material, oily road surfaces, camber, etc. Your 235/240 will first understeer. If you train (autocross or HPDE) you will learn to use the gas pedal so as to make it go into a 4-wheel drift -- and even more squealing. But please, do not try it on an on-ramp, with curbing and other traffic that can ruin your day.

This is great advice, particularly regarding the tires. On my 228i M Sport, my tires rarely squealed 'in the wild' -- even the all-season Michelins PS4s I fitted it with after the OEM Bridgestone Max Summers wore out. I would almost always reach the oversteer/slide point before I heard much chirping from either one of those tires. Maybe it's my driving style -- I don't get much chirping from the tires on my current 718, either, and I've seen nearly 1.2Gs on its onboard accelerometer -- but tire noise is not the greatest indication of traction limits.

Personally, I'd do a low-impact track session such as the HDPE mentioned previously before AutoX, just because the knowledge gained from that would serve AutoX lapping well. Either-or, really.

[Rosseau]

Originally Posted by Rolf14

Autocross is a cheaper alternative, and it is safe.

As for tires squealing (x/10th), it depends on your tires (summer v. all-season, etc.) and the pavement material, oily road surfaces, camber, etc. Your 235/240 will first understeer. If you train (autocross or HPDE) you will learn to use the gas pedal so as to make it go into a 4-wheel drift -- and even more squealing. But please, do not try it on an on-ramp, with curbing and other traffic that can ruin your day.

As for learning, my sons attended the "Street Survival" training and I stayed with them. Amazing! Even I learned new things about car control, even though I could not go drive the car.

Intelligent answers to a rather dumb question. So many variables. No worries about me "drifting" anywhere, but thanks, didn't consider autocross. I think it's great you got your sons involved.

The 718 is quite a car Viffermike. On-board accelerometer; you guys are serious. And XtuvJet, if I was serious would not have gotten the xdrive with auto. But for wife and I, it was the choice.

Great quote, Zwei

I came across an old article that sort of defined fast driving for me: climbing esses at Virginia Raceway would be posted at 45mph. 2016 Grand Sport with Z06 package entered at 133mph, hit a curb and exited at 130. Driven by a C&D staffer. For now, I will content myself with just reading about it