[Viffermike]

All I know is that at age 23, I was driving a '74 VW Beetle with some 'improvements' (heh) and no A/C in Texas ... and dating a gal who would later pose for Playboy.

Your car don't matter if you got game.

[Dylan86]

The M235/240i still has luxury in mind to some degree, it's just not "in your face" techy stuff. Just enough to satisfy us millenials I think

[Kolyan2k]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

All I know is that at age 23, I was driving a '74 VW Beetle with some 'improvements' (heh) and no A/C in Texas ... and dating a gal who would later pose for Playboy.

Your car don't matter if you got game.

[bimmerfile]

Originally Posted by Merc for hire

griz31 has already made his mistake. He is beyond saving.
We are trying to save wtfbrah's from falling into the same hole.

wtfbrah buy a Porsche, and ditch the girlfriend. Best advice right here.

Spot on. wtfbrah has already told us he doesn't particularly like the looks of the car, nor its gas mileage, nor its size, and only likes the handling and performance, so he want to know if he'll end up loving it?
NO!!!!
Let's use an analogy to explain this to him:
He thinks he may have found a new girlfriend, but he doesn't much like her looks nor her personality and thinks she's overweight, but he loves her boobs and she's great in bed.
His question - will I get to fall in love with her over time??
No!!!!!!

Time to try another dating site...

[DF]

Originally Posted by bimmerfile

Spot on. wtfbrah has already told us he doesn't particularly like the looks of the car, nor its gas mileage, nor its size, and only likes the handling and performance, so he want to know if he'll end up loving it?
NO!!!!
Let's use an analogy to explain this to him:
He thinks he may have found a new girlfriend, but he doesn't much like her looks nor her personality and thinks she's overweight, but he loves her boobs and she's great in bed.
His question - will I get to fall in love with her over time??
No!!!!!!

Time to try another dating site...

Or porn. Porn never asks to hold her purse while she shopping.

[wtfbrah]

Originally Posted by bimmerfile

Spot on. wtfbrah has already told us he doesn't particularly like the looks of the car, nor its gas mileage, nor its size, and only likes the handling and performance, so he want to know if he'll end up loving it?
NO!!!!
Let's use an analogy to explain this to him:
He thinks he may have found a new girlfriend, but he doesn't much like her looks nor her personality and thinks she's overweight, but he loves her boobs and she's great in bed.
His question - will I get to fall in love with her over time??
No!!!!!!

Time to try another dating site...

Hmmmm... I don't remember saying those things - I like the looks of other cars better, but I certainly still think the M240 is a good looking car, and I think I've also said that I kind of appreciate how it's understated compared to the M2, although this may contradict my desire to drive a Porsche. The size I like as well, I just said that I like the feel of the sedan for longer cruises. Gas mileage I don't think I've mentioned...

The M235 I drove did put a big smile on my face. I wouldn't say it's a perfect car, though. Out of curiosity, what other "dating site" would you recommend? Audi, no thanks. Porsche, IMO too impractical for a daily driver. M3 or M4, too rough of a ride for a daily driver and almost twice the price when fully loaded. Mercedes, duller feel on the road.

[redontheline]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

All I know is that at age 23, I was driving a '74 VW Beetle with some 'improvements' (heh) and no A/C in Texas ... and dating a gal who would later pose for Playboy.

Your car don't matter if you got game.

fur-kini?

[Pparana]

Originally Posted by Merc for hire

Guy your age should focus more on what the girls think of you than coworkers. If you can afford a Cayman, get it. It will help you get laid more that's for sure.
Use your car to your advantage

if you want to get laid, buy a pickup. Having most cars the op has talked about in my garage at some point, 991, m 235i, c450 amg, jag ftype. I can tell you the one the ladies seem most interested in is my 16 Tacoma.

If you have employees than you prob want a regular car for the office (Tacoma) if you have co workers, then who cares? Do you really think they are giving any thought to the car you are driving? most people do not know a BMW from a Honda. Employees care, because they will think your underpaying them.

Cars are cars, after you have had a few they sort of loose there luster. Buy what you want, who cares what people think. If the Oscar Myer wiener mobile made me happy I would daily it.

[Merc for hire]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

All I know is that at age 23, I was driving a '74 VW Beetle with some 'improvements' (heh) and no A/C in Texas ... and dating a gal who would later pose for Playboy.

Your car don't matter if you got game.

I am also in my mid 20s.

Think about it this way, with M235i he will only by attracting the girls who dig his game.

With the Porsche, he will be attracting both the girls who dig his game AND the girls who just thinks he is got a cool car and is loaded.

The point is he will be attracting more girls with the Porsche, period. lol.

And remember, he is only 23, has no idea what love means and is no time to settle down.
He should be going through girlfriends like rear tires. hahaha

[JRMorgan]

Originally Posted by wtfbrah

That is a very good argument and very well put, thank you. Seriously, that was really helpful in seeing what the car is mean to be.


The fact that the M2 is so close in price is one of the most frustrating things about the car, and I think that if the M2 were available without an extremely absurdly long wait I'd pull the trigger on one.

I do see what you're saying about the goal of simplicity. I have to balance that with the "daily driver" aspect as well. You're right that if technology and features are what I'm after, then I should go MB. But technology and features aren't really what I'm after - I'm after the driving feeling, but I just want technology and features ALSO. So then you get back to the point of "wanting it all" - and I'd certainly have to pay for that.

Case in point - the C43 AMG loaded up how I like it, with all the assistance packages, HUD, leather, etc... 63k. Whereas, I think I can load up an M240i that I'll be happy with for 52k MSRP.

In the end, you've helped me realize something - what I want is the feel of the M240i with the luxury of the C43. For that, I think I'm looking at M3 price range, 75k+ fully loaded... But then, I might as well start looking at 911s. After that, I'll figure, might as well look 20k up and look at an R8.

In the end, the M240i is probably the right car for me. It made me laugh when I drove it, what more can you ask of a car?

The current BMW pricing strategy is ridiculous. I fell for it once in the E82 135i. The 135 had a lot of options but the basic interior was a good step below the 335. At the end of the day the cost savings was $3k and the depreciation hit was worse than the 335i I owned before.

Yet I'll never forget that car. It was ugly as sin, but to me it was like the BMWs I lusted after as a kid. If it got looks it was in a bad way. The only compliment I ever got for it was a dude in a Camaro SS and later I learned those guys cross shopped the 135i a lot. Check the Camaro forums.

But where I felt the E92 335i was a boat (after all I lusted after E30 era 3 series) and honestly it drove like one IMHO - no offense to anyone who thought otherwise. The 135i was twitchy, the ride wasn't great, and in all honesty it wasn't that much lighter. But man it felt great. I always felt in full control and the sensation of speed in that thing was unbelievable. In city driving passing cars left and right, fitting through spaces, the DCT at speed was amazing. Too bad the DCT between 0-5MPH was horrible. After 3 software updates they finally got rid of that lag but each time I know they detuned the car. If I got that car in a manual I'd still have it.


Now looking at the 2 series as a whole, IMHO it's kind of rip off territory if you want stuff that's considered basic today like navigation or comfort access. I mean rental cars have that stuff now. I priced out a 235i manual at $55k once and because of the M2 they dropped the price down a bit by lower option prices, but it still gets to $52k - almost exactly the same as an M2.

Then I thought, why not try a 228i? I actually liked the F30 328i better than the 335i loaners I drove. The front end really does feel lighter. The car feels pretty fast with the 8AT, the gearing is perfect. Numbers aside I doubt I'd notice much difference between 0-80 in either car. The 335i pulled much better after about 80 which is well and good but I'm over getting speeding tickets. The n55 in the 335i did not sound anything like it did in the 135i and IMHO sounds like a vacuum cleaner after all the extra sound damping they did in the F30 335i. Now they have to fake the sound.

Back to my point about pricing. Once you configure the 228i similarly and with the necessary track handling package you're at $48k. In any case the 4 banger is not suited for the 6MT IMHO, the 8AT was geared perfectly for it but I feel that engine would suffer with the 6MT.

So back to square one. $52k 235i. There are fully loaded 3 series cars out there for less. With even the HUD and other options not possible in the 2 series.

So again they gouge the heck out of people looking for that old school BMW "purity". I cannot help but think I would overpay for anything but the M2 which is more than fairly priced. But you can't get your hands on one in any case.

BMW knows what they are doing. They turned the 3 into a family cruiser, it left me wondering if a Camry has better steering feel, and I'll bet they do. The 4 became a grand touring vehicle as big as former 5 series. So they made the 1 and 2 to appeal to the "purists". But they also know how to gouge us, the old faithful types.

But even after all that my feeling from reading some trusted members here who went from 135i to the 235i and then said "screw this nonsense" and just went Porsche.

Please don't read if you get offended easily:

I have zero confidence that BMW changed anything about that dead numb steering in the 2 series compared to the 3 series. Given how floaty the current 3 is, I doubt they could do much for the 2 either. Which explains why some people just move to Porsche. Which might explain the "respect but not love" aspects of opinions I am reading here.

Let's face it BMW is gone, you have to get an M car for a shot at any steering feel or to get rid of the floaty luxury suspension anymore and while the M2 is very fairly priced you have to wait with bated breath for one. Meanwhile I see brand loyalists just settling for whatever they can get. They wanted a driver's car but I guess it's okay that isn't a driver's car anymore because OMG it's so comfy. OMG people turn and look at it. It's become as good as a fashion brand like a ladies' handbag at this point. They are basically training their customers to accept it as they make it. The cars are all about looks, luxury and status now and if you want a modicum of feel apparently you need to add variable sport suspension, steering, track package etc. etc. About $5k of price gouging which still doesn't make a driver's car.

I respect the 2 series owners, but really the average BMW owner hasn't a clue anymore. The cars are 95% bought for looks, comfort and status. The marketing machine is so good that it fools even diehards or at the very least just gets them to submit in exasperation. You can't really fight it after dropping $50k+ on the car. It isn't a bad car, just not what you expected. In fact they are excellent cars, with a very good chassis and so comfortable with that fast steering that could fool most people into thinking the car is "sporty". It's very fast, feels sort of sporty, it's comfortable, it gets looks etc. But the main reason you bought it is utterly lacking.

This explains IMHO why on a conscious level people respect it, like it, don't go as far as regretting it. However it also explains the subconscious - WTF? - in some of our minds right now.

I hear all these excuses for it from getting looks, to how comfy it is, and biggest one is - wow this car is great at the limits. So is everyone tracking these? Or is everyone hitting 130+MPH on public roads? The numbers are amazing, I'll bet they feel amazing at the limits, the chassis is impressive but again in normal day to day driving it's all lux. You do a lane change maneuver at normal not trying to get arrested speeds and it's floaty, the steering is vague, it gives you feedback only in terms of weightiness if you do a really fast lane change in an attempt to get any feel from the car. The ride actually beats cars like Buicks. So we hear a lot about "day to day", "It's comfy", "It's a grown ups car", "the interior", "the styling", "the package", "the numbers", "it's fast", "it rides well" etc. All of these are valid. But nobody talks about how the car feels to actually drive, the steering, the brakes, the handling, the feedback.

I feel like I just hear a lot of justifications for how these have become luxury cars first and foremost. If anything if these cars had decent feedback the average driver would complain about the steering wheel moves too much. "The car is jumpy", "this doesn't feel like a BMW should". The average person wants it numb, if anything they would prefer it drives itself. They do try to keep us in the fold but more than anything they just want to gouge us and dazzle us with marketing and a state of mind. Even the experienced get dazzled and simply accept that this is how it is. I mean it has to be right? The car can almost beat an E92 M3 on the Nurburgring- it has to be great.

But for me I'll keep the E92 M3 even if it's slower. If BMW keeps on this path I'll have no qualms looking at cars not focused on luxury or status or looks but not just pure driving feel even if means something "underpowered" like a Miata. I'd say 200HP for real is better than 350+ gimped by the nanny systems in these cars. More than that 200HP with some halfway decent driving feel is better IMHO than one of these with 450WHP after XYZ tune and $10k+ in aftermarket stuff added. Because no aftermarket part can fix that numb steering. Maybe the floaty suspension can be fixed but after what? $70K all in?

I'd go Porsche but I really, really hate drawing attention to myself in my car and I see nothing good coming from inciting jealousy from coworkers or drawing attention on the street from strangers. So I guess I'll either get on the list for an M2 (the average person would dismiss it due to it looking like an entry level car) or just go Japanese and handle the downgrade in interior comfort, looks, status whatever. I know the complaints come with every new generation but this time they went way too far. I've even lost faith in the new M cars. What are the chances I'll get to test drive one? I'm expected to sit here begging them to take my $52k and praying the thing won't just be a hype show of "M" badges and that idea of OMG it beat XYZ on the Nurburgring. In all honesty my current E92 M3 is great and it allowed me to check off that bucket list item (getting an M car) and it's a good daily driver but more and more you need to do suicidal speeds in these to get any driving feel. If that darn Miata came in a coupe I'd trade it in with no qualms. I want a taste of something pure before these all become fully automated self driving boxes. The current BMWs feel halfway there IMHO. If anything from a daily driving perspective the M dynamic mode is basically the point of paying the M premium. You can "have fun" in it without risking death. Pure 100% software feature. We'll turn off the super nannies for only $15k more and toss in some "M parts". Do I really need to buy the track optimized version of your car to allow the rear wheel to slip a little? Or to have some modicum of steering feedback? Or for the car to not feel like floaty and disconnected from the road? All questions I'd like to pose to BMW. What do they care? They're making money hand over fist with SUVs, family cars etc.

Sorry if anything I wrote offended, but I hope we can look beyond the brand and the hype as it means nothing anymore. It probably meant nothing around the time they decided to add insult to injury by making "M' SUVs. Now it's about being all things to all people while extracting as much $$$$ as possible. The 2 series are great cars still, but IMHO they are not driver's cars anymore.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by JRMorgan

In any case the 4 banger is not suited for the 6MT IMHO, the 8AT was geared perfectly for it but I feel that engine would suffer with the 6MT.

WOW! What a post! Must have been a late night?

Interested and no offense taken at all, but could you please expound on this? LOL, yes, I am asking you to write even a bit more! I may have been having far too good a time the last two years with my 228i 6MT!

[wtfbrah]

Wow lol that was a really long post but basically all I got out of it was:

- BMW is price gouging people and changing their philosophy
- The M235i feels numb at lower speeds

I would say the first is pretty obvious. They are a business. They can't just sell cars to the die-hard, 6MT RWD fans. They'd die. So that's why they made the 3-series into a family sedan and made M SUVs. They have to sell cars. Yet, I think you're gonna have a hard time explaining how the M235i model in particular is overpriced, with the one exception of comparing it to the M2, which is extremely well priced as you've already admitted. I think the M235 is very fairly priced, considering that to get similar performance (C43 AMG, Audi S cars) you normally need to drop a good bit more dough.

As to it feeling numb at lower speeds, I'm not sure what to say, because I'm just out of college and certainly not one of those die-hard fans of old school BMWs so I don't know what they felt like. I thought I got a lot of "feeling the road" at lower speeds in the M235 I drove, but maybe a Cayman test drive would change my mind. You say the M235 has better feeling at higher speeds. I thought the opposite, that it felt really great at 20-50 mph but as I went faster I had less idea how the car was feeling around corners.

It seems like there are different groups of people who buy the M235i. There are the old school BMW fans who want the 2002 back, the 1M coupe, they want manuals, no sunroof and RWD. They care pretty much ONLY about steering feel, body roll, et cetera. These people I feel could not possibly be happy in the long term with BMW anyways. Even the "purists" complain about the M2 - for being underpowered compared to the new 240, for pumping fake sound in, for having a cheap interior, blah blah. I feel like these people should go with Porsche. Who knows, maybe I'm one of "these people". Test driving a Cayman will let me see for myself.

But then there are others, like myself. I don't really fit into that category of old school fans, but I want a comfortable, fast, small, good-looking car that's easy to maneuver, feels zippy, and has plenty of power. It grips the road well and feels great in terms of handling to ME, but again I've never driven an M2 or M3, or Porsche.

So maybe you're right. Maybe the M240 is a ripoff for those who are looking for pure BMW driving. It's been absolutely RAVED about by review sites though, which leads me to believe that its well suited to your more "average", lets-go-fast-and-look-cool customer.

[bimmerfile]

Originally Posted by wtfbrah

Hmmmm... I don't remember saying those things - .................................

Well, maybe I misunderstood when you wrote the following:
" if we're being honest, the car's appeal is almost 100% with how it drives."
"It's not THAT luxurious inside, "
" it's not very roomy,"
" it doesn't get great gas mileage,"
"it isn't all too much of a head turner or a looker, "
"being afraid of not "loving" the M240i is a real problem"
" if I was stepping into a Merc interior, that might feel better."
"My concerns are pretty much 100% regarding the interior and comfort"
"the M235i's interior does NOT feel like a 50k car."
"what I want is the feel of the M240i with the luxury of the C43"
"in all honesty my dream car is a Carrera or Cayman. I've always wanted a Porsche."

My advice is still - don't buy this car.
With as many concerns as you appear to have - and I'm assuming that $50K is a pretty big number for you to chew on at your age, then my guess is that you will end up regretting getting the 2er.

[wtfbrah]

Originally Posted by bimmerfile

Well, maybe I misunderstood when you wrote the following:
" if we're being honest, the car's appeal is almost 100% with how it drives."
"It's not THAT luxurious inside, "
" it's not very roomy,"
" it doesn't get great gas mileage,"
"it isn't all too much of a head turner or a looker, "
"being afraid of not "loving" the M240i is a real problem"
" if I was stepping into a Merc interior, that might feel better."
"My concerns are pretty much 100% regarding the interior and comfort"
"the M235i's interior does NOT feel like a 50k car."
"what I want is the feel of the M240i with the luxury of the C43"
"in all honesty my dream car is a Carrera or Cayman. I've always wanted a Porsche."

My advice is still - don't buy this car.
With as many concerns as you appear to have - and I'm assuming that $50K is a pretty big number for you to chew on at your age, then my guess is that you will end up regretting getting the 2er.

i just got rekt

[bartginger]

"You can't really fight it after dropping $50k+ on the car. It isn't a bad car, just not what you expected."

JR Morgan, you just nailed it. I've been driving BMW's since my first car (2002) in 1975. I've had an E30 325is, E30 M3, M Coupe, and E36 M3. This is the first BMW that just feels wierd. It's faster than any car I've ever had, but is has no rawness about it and I can't seem to have fun in it. Perhaps my mistake was giving the ZF automatic a try. I have never had an automatic before. I did this because I thought I was keeping my E36 and saw no point in having two manual cars. Now the E36 is gone and I am really regretting the whole thing. Maybe I'd be happy with an M2, probably the only BMW I'd really want, but I'd take a huge financial hit and they won't even be available for at least another year. I can't afford a Porsche either; not even close. Quality problems, right?

[wtfbrah]

Originally Posted by bartginger

"You can't really fight it after dropping $50k+ on the car. It isn't a bad car, just not what you expected."

JR Morgan, you just nailed it. I've been driving BMW's since my first car (2002) in 1975. I've had an E30 325is, E30 M3, M Coupe, and E36 M3. This is the first BMW that just feels wierd. It's faster than any car I've ever had, but is has no rawness about it and I can't seem to have fun in it. Perhaps my mistake was giving the ZF automatic a try. I have never had an automatic before. I did this because I thought I was keeping my E36 and saw no point in having two manual cars. Now the E36 is gone and I am really regretting the whole thing. Maybe I'd be happy with an M2, probably the only BMW I'd really want, but I'd take a huge financial hit and they won't even be available for at least another year. I can't afford a Porsche either; not even close. Quality problems, right?

If you don't mind me asking, how can you possibly say you can afford a brand new M2 but not a Porsche? MSRP of M2 is 52k. A used Carrera with 20k miles can be had for not much more, and Caymans can be had for a lot less.

[bartginger]

Wtfbrah: I was talking about buying new. A Cayman S would cost at least $70,000 plus tax and license. I am not buying a used Porsche.

[wtfbrah]

Originally Posted by bartginger

Wtfbrah: I was talking about buying new. A Cayman S would cost at least $70,000 plus tax and license. [b]I am not buying a used Porsche.[b]

Fair enough - although CPO cars are still warrantied.. You just want to be the only owner?

[JRMorgan]

Originally Posted by wtfbrah

Wow lol that was a really long post but basically all I got out of it was:

- BMW is price gouging people and changing their philosophy
- The M235i feels numb at lower speeds

I would say the first is pretty obvious. They are a business. They can't just sell cars to the die-hard, 6MT RWD fans. They'd die. So that's why they made the 3-series into a family sedan and made M SUVs. They have to sell cars. Yet, I think you're gonna have a hard time explaining how the M235i model in particular is overpriced, with the one exception of comparing it to the M2, which is extremely well priced as you've already admitted. I think the M235 is very fairly priced, considering that to get similar performance (C43 AMG, Audi S cars) you normally need to drop a good bit more dough.

As to it feeling numb at lower speeds, I'm not sure what to say, because I'm just out of college and certainly not one of those die-hard fans of old school BMWs so I don't know what they felt like. I thought I got a lot of "feeling the road" at lower speeds in the M235 I drove, but maybe a Cayman test drive would change my mind. You say the M235 has better feeling at higher speeds. I thought the opposite, that it felt really great at 20-50 mph but as I went faster I had less idea how the car was feeling around corners.

It seems like there are different groups of people who buy the M235i. There are the old school BMW fans who want the 2002 back, the 1M coupe, they want manuals, no sunroof and RWD. They care pretty much ONLY about steering feel, body roll, et cetera. These people I feel could not possibly be happy in the long term with BMW anyways. Even the "purists" complain about the M2 - for being underpowered compared to the new 240, for pumping fake sound in, for having a cheap interior, blah blah. I feel like these people should go with Porsche. Who knows, maybe I'm one of "these people". Test driving a Cayman will let me see for myself.

But then there are others, like myself. I don't really fit into that category of old school fans, but I want a comfortable, fast, small, good-looking car that's easy to maneuver, feels zippy, and has plenty of power. It grips the road well and feels great in terms of handling to ME, but again I've never driven an M2 or M3, or Porsche.

So maybe you're right. Maybe the M240 is a ripoff for those who are looking for pure BMW driving. It's been absolutely RAVED about by review sites though, which leads me to believe that its well suited to your more "average", lets-go-fast-and-look-cool customer.

Hey thanks for the reply.

I do agree they need to sell cars to stay in business but I don't think they are at risk of going belly up any time soon. Staying in business is easy just think "what would Audi do?" Audi are the masters of playing the marketing game. They did the first fwd "luxury" car (well no, caddy did it first during the oil crisis of the 70s - they got laughed at but Audi pulled it off). They started this S branding thing. They started the idea of naming the coupes one number higher to extract an extra $8k for a different body style. Anyway it does not upset me it's just business. The market sets the price.

I think you're in some respects very lucky to get one of these cars straight out of school and unlucky in that sadly you'll never know how these cars used to feel. When I came out of school BMW was out of my price range, but I did test drive a 2000 M roadster.

It was nothing like I expected. The thing rattled like a cheap toy. I guess that was the state of soft tops back then. But, driving it was a revelation. Even taking turns at 5MPH felt like words cannot describe. You turn the wheel a little and hit the throttle and the throttle actually finished the turn for you. Unbelievable. The back just slid out and it felt like most of the turn was just that. Everything I'm talking about happened between 5 and 10MPH maybe 15.

I understand that level of feel and feedback and control isn't possible in today's cars with their safety and emissions regulations. But how these cars feel honestly I would say more luxury than a Camry without a doubt. More soft ride and honestly I wasn't exaggerating when I said a Camry would actually give you better steering feel. It's not ideal but at least it feels like it's connected to something that is touching the road.

This concept of purists and all the magazine articles telling you this is the second coming of the 2002 etc. are just a made up lie IMHO. They'll tell you any story to get you enticed. These cars are nothing like what I imagine the 2002 was, not even close. They are about the same size and that's it. They needed to make a smaller car around the size of the older car and the magazines go crazy with the comparisons. The allusions, the stories and the comparisons. Let's face it these magazines wouldn't be around if they didn't hype up the cars.

A real purist wouldn't be bitching about numbers. The concept of today's purist is some sort of marketing invention too. You must like a stripper car to be a purist. Or you must not settle for anything less than xxx HP. It's all false.

That car I was talking about had 240HP. At the speeds I was driving it it might have put out 150 at best. All this talk about oh the M2 doesn't have enough HP and the 240i is almost as powerful etc. is armchair driving talk. It's mental masturbation IMHO. The very first thing to keep in mind is that the nannies are not letting you feel any of it regardless if it has 5000HP. It's just silly. It's a numbers game and it makes you feel good thinking about oh how many cars it must beat etc. If you have an M2 why should it bother you if the 240i has more torque or whatever? The M2 will be better no matter what the numbers say. If someone is talking just numbers they are no purist. The reality of the situation is if you want speed and power Tesla is the one to beat. It may be super fast but I doubt it's much of a driver's car. People are auto piloting the thing to their demise. Not even looking at the road.

A real purist would not complain about interiors especially the nice interior of the 2 series. It's more than good enough. But at its price point it's a little underdone IMHO. But fake sound? What have we come to? Really? One shouldn't have to go Porsche or Lambo or whatever to get an honest car without fakery. I personally don't care about sound. I care about feel and control.

The concept of today's purist is some idea put out by the magazines. I can't blame you or hold you accountable because I was once where you are. I believed the stories and I had nothing else to go by. I respected even worshipped so many magazines. Little did I know they are just a part of the ecosystem. Generally positive and occasionally negative to maintain credibility. Always writing to serve an agenda.

Actually I disagree about Audi S pricing. Inside I despise Audi but when I saw an S3 on the lot at $42k sticker and all the basic options one would need it shocked me. The car would likely sell for as little as $39k. Given Audi has terrible steering and the dynamics are pretty bad, but if you wanted to check a bunch of boxes and manual or rwd are not among them the deal is unbelievable. It's not like BMW is giving you much better driving feel at any price. They are better balanced for sure though.

Then I configured the C450 and yes it's more expensive and it way more luxury and it's different class of car. But wow configuring it was refreshing. The only real option for it is the Premium package 2 at $1500. How refreshing. Everything else seems to be included. While base was $53k I got to a very good point even with the amazing racing seats at $57k. This a whole other level of fit and finish at about $3-4K more than the 235i. Again if it had a manual and given the 235i IMHO doesn't have the BMW feel I'm looking for i might as well just go pure luxury/"performance" because on paper that car is no slouch either.

What really bothers me is just how the base $37k 228i becomes $47k with basic rental car kind of stuff in it plus the track package the sport features etc. That's serious gouging IMHO.

Again I can't blame you for your impressions of the car. It does feel pretty good at even 20-50MPH but it still is quite disconnected feeling IMHO and I suppose you felt that it felt even more disconnected at speed. All cars have more weightiness at lower speeds and that's what I suspect you're feeling. But that sense of weightiness is different from steering feel. You know how they say in an Alfa 4c you can read manhole covers through the steering wheel? That's what I mean. Sure it's hyperbole as written but it conveys the point very well. With the F BMWs you feel nothing of the road surface IMHO. You might feel the crown of the road as a slight pull but that's it. But also for a driver's car you should feel the corners at any speed. In the E92 M3 I speed up during curves because it does feel pretty good. But it feels pretty good even around a parking lot. I feel the surface of the road albeit muted compared to other cars I've driven. However it isn't even close to that M roadster. If I accelerate hard in normal mode the nannies come on easily. You cannot slide even slightly in that mode. But the M cars have a mode called M dynamic mode that lets you powerslide on turns safely. IMHO that is the only actual practical feature of an M car over a regular BMW in regular sane street driving. Once you've tried it you won't want to be without it and that means you'll want to spend an extra $10-20K for the M version of the car mostly for that software feature. It could be offered to regular BMW products but then it would take away a huge reason to spend that extra money.

I cannot disagree with your assessment of who the car is aimed at and the fringe benefits seem to be more of the focus.

In closing check this out: https://www.carsforsale.com/vehicle/details/14718323

That kind of thing is right up my alley. I can only imagine how it must feel.

[bimmerfile]

Originally Posted by wtfbrah

Out of curiosity, what other "dating site" would you recommend? Audi, no thanks. Porsche, IMO too impractical for a daily driver. M3 or M4, too rough of a ride for a daily driver and almost twice the price when fully loaded. Mercedes, duller feel on the road.

Dunno, but if I were your age looking for fun and a car I could fall in love with the added bonus of being easy on the wallet, I'd give the Mazda MX-5 serious consideration.
Handling, performance, good gas mileage, seat-of-the-pants fun factor & loaded price in the low $30K..
If you don't need back seats, it's guaranteed to put as big a grin on your face.

BTW, Mazda's also just announced the Miata RF with the hard-top folding roof panel:
http://blog.caranddriver.com/so-spec...aunch-edition/

[Kolyan2k]

Originally Posted by bimmerfile

Dunno, but if I were your age looking for fun and a car I could fall in love with the added bonus of being easy on the wallet, I'd give the Mazda MX-5 serious consideration.
Handling, performance, good gas mileage, seat-of-the-pants fun factor & loaded price in the low $30K..
If you don't need back seats, it's guaranteed to put as big a grin on your face.

BTW, Mazda's also just announced the Miata RF with the hard-top folding roof panel:
http://blog.caranddriver.com/so-spec...aunch-edition/

I'd take S2k over Mazda. Much better engine....it's addicting

[bimmerfile]

Originally Posted by Kolyan2k

I'd take S2k over Mazda. Much better engine....it's addicting

Whaat? Have they started building them again?