[Dylan86]

Originally Posted by nvmaddog

While we are on that note, the 228i will edge out a stock S2000 in the 1/4 mile and from 0 to 60 too.

S2K's are slow in a drag race. I remember watching a VR6 Jetta lay one out back in 2003

[B_Rice]

Anyone drag racing a s2000 is doing it wrong.

[Xi-Xi]

Originally Posted by den525

I still stand by that statement. 228i by today's standard is NOT a performance vehicle.

The 2 series chassis itself is great. Hence why the 228 handles great. In the segment and price range there's no other coupe, only hatchbacks and sedans. You look at focus RS, Renault Megane RS275, golf r, and Audi s3... Those would be considered performance orientated vehicles, while A250/Cla250 along with the 228 to be standard hatch/coupes.

First off, your original statement--"I understand people getting the 228 if they don't care about performance."--is completely and utterly wrong. I guarantee you that 228i drivers are not buying them because they "don't care about performance." That characterization, besides being astonishingly insulting, is comlete nonsense. Really, does that statement honestly seem logical to you?! Not only is it nonsense, it's plainly inflammatory and appears designed to start an argument. You really believe that 228i owners don't care about "performance"? You wanted to start shite: Mission Accomplished, I guess. Well done.

It's quite plain that your argument revolves around the sentiment that "performance" cars have superior horsepower. You've admitted that the 2 Series chassis is wonderful, and since the only practical difference between the 228i and M235i is raw horsepower, it must be that ponies make the car for you. Unfortunately, you're misguided. There are many drivers of moderately powered cars who would consider their vehicles as "performance" cars. Good lord, ask any e46 owner. The 228i is fast, quick, and handles superbly. In the eyes of the vast majority of the BMW community, any 2 Series would be considered a "performance" car.

In reality, there's not much that the 228i can't do in relation to the M235i. And with an aftermarket tune it could equal or exceed the 235 in many instances. But to you, of course, it's not "performance". Imagine that.

[den525]

Originally Posted by Xi-Xi

First off, your original statement--"I understand people getting the 228 if they don't care about performance."--is completely and utterly wrong. I guarantee you that 228i drivers are not buying them because they "don't care about performance." That characterization, besides being astonishingly insulting, is comlete nonsense. Really, does that statement honestly seem logical to you?! Not only is it nonsense, it's plainly inflammatory and appears designed to start an argument. You really believe that 228i owners don't care about "performance"? You wanted to start shite: Mission Accomplished, I guess. Well done.

It's quite plain that your argument revolves around the sentiment that "performance" cars have superior horsepower. You've admitted that the 2 Series chassis is wonderful, and since the only practical difference between the 228i and M235i is raw horsepower, it must be that ponies make the car for you. Unfortunately, you're misguided. There are many drivers of moderately powered cars who would consider their vehicles as "performance" cars. Good lord, ask any e46 owner. The 228i is fast, quick, and handles superbly. In the eyes of the vast majority of the BMW community, any 2 Series would be considered a "performance" car.

In reality, there's not much that the 228i can't do in relation to the M235i. And with an aftermarket tune it could equal or exceed the 235 in many instances. But to you, of course, it's not "performance". Imagine that.

The engine is the heart of the car. The BMW 4cyl engine is just not up to scratch. Compared to the 6cyl, or other 4cyl engines from other manufacturers.

You say there's not much the 228 can't do in relation to the M235i? That's a joke right? The 6cyl engine is a lot better than the 4cyl engine.

Sure you can tune the 4cyl engine to make it close to the 6cyl engine, but you can also tune the 6cyl engine to make it completely out of reach of the 4cyl one!

The 2l turbo is weak compared to its rivals, look at the Audi/VW and Mercedes engine, they're heads and shoulders above the BMW one.

You can argue all day and night but for me the 228i lacks soul (sounds like nothing, BMW car have the 6cyl roar), the car lacks power and performance and as much as you want to say it doesn't compare with its siblings the 235 or M2 far from it

[Kolyan2k]

Originally Posted by Xi-Xi

First off, your original statement--"I understand people getting the 228 if they don't care about performance."--is completely and utterly wrong. I guarantee you that 228i drivers are not buying them because they "don't care about performance." That characterization, besides being astonishingly insulting, is comlete nonsense. Really, does that statement honestly seem logical to you?! Not only is it nonsense, it's plainly inflammatory and appears designed to start an argument. You really believe that 228i owners don't care about "performance"? You wanted to start shite: Mission Accomplished, I guess. Well done.

It's quite plain that your argument revolves around the sentiment that "performance" cars have superior horsepower. You've admitted that the 2 Series chassis is wonderful, and since the only practical difference between the 228i and M235i is raw horsepower, it must be that ponies make the car for you. Unfortunately, you're misguided. There are many drivers of moderately powered cars who would consider their vehicles as "performance" cars. Good lord, ask any e46 owner. The 228i is fast, quick, and handles superbly. In the eyes of the vast majority of the BMW community, any 2 Series would be considered a "performance" car.

In reality, there's not much that the 228i can't do in relation to the M235i. And with an aftermarket tune it could equal or exceed the 235 in many instances. But to you, of course, it's not "performance". Imagine that.

Not sure 2-series is a a performance car. M2 is, M235i is already step below it, 228i without all the performance packs is just a loaner, 228i with it can be compared to BRZ and like... Miata maybe. Both great track cars but I wouldn't call it" performance"

You also can't really compare modified 228i to stock 235i... easily and cheaply a modified M235i will take M2 and M4.

[kdog26372]

The S2000 was not a slow car for its time. Low 5's 0-60 and matched the much more expensive Porsche Boxter S in almost every stat yet costed about 1/2 the price. What's with all the hate on that car? I owned one, you'd be hard pressed to find a more satisfying car to drive anywhere near $30k back in 2001. And I had a VR6 Jetta and it was nowhere close to as fast as an S2000, that was like a mid-6 0-60 car.

It's not a drag race car, although it will run low 12's in the mid teens with a $3k supercharger kit which would match/beat the M2, it was a great car for it's time and to be saying a car 15 years later in the 228i matches or barely beats a car from 2001 is nice I guess because it's a heavier car and has a much nicer interior, but also shows that the Honda was pretty good for it's day even without the help of a turbo.

The 228i is a great car I'm sure and perfect for some people, but you don't need to justify your car by beating down on cars 15 year old. If Honda still made the car it would still be targeting the Porsche Boxster S for performance stats and nobody would compare a 228i to a modern Boxster I don't think.

[Kolyan2k]

Originally Posted by kdog26372

The S2000 was not a slow car for its time. Low 5's 0-60 and matched the much more expensive Porsche Boxter S in almost every stat yet costed about 1/2 the price. What's with all the hate on that car? I owned one, you'd be hard pressed to find a more satisfying car to drive anywhere near $30k back in 2001. And I had a VR6 Jetta and it was nowhere close to as fast as an S2000, that was like a mid-6 0-60 car.

It's not a drag race car, although it will run low 12's in the mid teens with a $3k supercharger kit which would match/beat the M2, it was a great car for it's time and to be saying a car 15 years later in the 228i matches or barely beats a car from 2001 is nice I guess because it's a heavier car and has a much nicer interior, but also shows that the Honda was pretty good for it's day even without the help of a turbo.

The 228i is a great car I'm sure and perfect for some people, but you don't need to justify your car by beating down on cars 15 year old. If Honda still made the car it would still be targeting the Porsche Boxster S for performance stats and nobody would compare a 228i to a modern Boxster I don't think.

I dont think there was any hate toward it. I just said it was slow in stock form, its about the same as 228i. Yes, with supercharger it will rape even M2 and still will be more reliable

[Xi-Xi]

Originally Posted by den525

The engine is the heart of the car. The BMW 4cyl engine is just not up to scratch. Compared to the 6cyl, or other 4cyl engines from other manufacturers.

Well, you can't argue with a fanboi. You say there's not much the 228 can't do in relation to the M235i? That's a joke right? The 6cyl engine is a lot better than the 4cyl engine.

Sure you can tune the 4cyl engine to make it close to the 6cyl engine, but you can also tune the 6cyl engine to make it completely out of reach of the 4cyl one!

The 2l turbo is weak compared to its rivals, look at the Audi/VW and Mercedes engine, they're heads and shoulders above the BMW one.

You can argue all day and night but for me the 228i lacks soul (sounds like nothing, BMW car have the 6cyl roar), the car lacks power and performance and as much as you want to say it doesn't compare with its siblings the 235 or M2 far from it

I guess you can't argue with a fanboi (and I don't mean me). Maybe the engine is the so-called "heart" of the car, but it's far from the defining characteristic. You've already admitted that the F22 chassis is great, but for some reason the 228 can't be counted as a "performance" vehicle. Sorry, that's just denying reality. By any rational and objective standard the 228 is clearly a performance oriented automobile. "But the 235 makes a really cool noise when you floor it!!" Whatever....to me it still sounds like a weedwhacker. Nothing sounds as sweet as a V8. In any case, as if engine noise detracts from the stout 4 popper in the 228. That the 228 doesn't have quite the horsepower of other examples in the field completely misses the point (unsurprisingly). Take off the 235i colored glasses and enjoy life.

I'll just close by noting that there are thousands of 228i owners who would disagree with your contention that it isn't a performance vehicle. Yeah, the 228i engine isn't super powerful. So what!!?? Once again, it's not underpowered by any objective standard, and in any case a car doesn't need to have the most powerful power plant to be considered "performance". Why does this fact even need mentioning?! But you keep up your horsepower hunt and eventually you'll be happy. Or not. You do realize that the M235i is superseded in the horsepower department by a lot of other vehicles right? I guess it's not much of a "performance" car.

[Xi-Xi]

Originally Posted by Kolyan2k

Not sure 2-series is a a performance car. M2 is, M235i is already step below it, 228i without all the performance packs is just a loaner, 228i with it can be compared to BRZ and like... Miata maybe. Both great track cars but I wouldn't call it" performance"

You also can't really compare modified 228i to stock 235i... easily and cheaply a modified M235i will take M2 and M4.

Please bestow upon us mere mortals this mystical knowledge of the horsepower barrier that upon breaching makes a vehicle a "performance car".

[Kolyan2k]

Originally Posted by Xi-Xi

I guess you can't argue with a fanboi (and I don't mean me). Maybe the engine is the so-called "heart" of the car, but it's far from the defining characteristic. You've already admitted that the F22 chassis is great, but for some reason the 228 can't be counted as a "performance" vehicle. Sorry, that's just denying reality. By any rational and objective standard the 228 is clearly a performance oriented automobile. "But the 235 makes a really cool noise when you floor it!!" Whatever....to me it still sounds like a weedwhacker. Nothing sounds as sweet as a V8. In any case, as if engine noise detracts from the stout 4 popper in the 228. That the 228 doesn't have quite the horsepower of other examples in the field completely misses the point (unsurprisingly). Take off the 235i colored glasses and enjoy life.

I'll just close by noting that there are thousands of 228i owners who would disagree with your contention that it isn't a performance vehicle. Yeah, the 228i engine isn't super powerful. So what!!?? Once again, it's not underpowered by any objective standard, and in any case a car doesn't need to have the most powerful power plant to be considered "performance". Why does this fact even need mentioning?! But you keep up your horsepower hunt and eventually you'll be happy. Or not. You do realize that the M235i is superseded in the horsepower department by a lot of other vehicles right? I guess it's not much of a "performance" car.

Originally Posted by Xi-Xi

Please bestow upon us mere mortals this mystical knowledge of the horsepower barrier that upon breaching makes a vehicle a "performance car".

I'll Google that for you no problem !

"A performance car is an automobile that is designed and constructed specifically for speed. The design and construction of a performance car involves not only providing a capable power train but also providing the handling and braking systems to support it."

Its also about power to weight ratio, not just power. A car can have 240hp but it would need to weight less then 3000lbs

[bluemeanie]

And torque curves don't matter?

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by bluemeanie

And torque curves don't matter?

Actually, very little in the last few pages of this thread matter.

It is beyond ridiculous that anyone here would be so presumptuous to tell all of the 228i owners what they do or not care about in their automobile. It ignores the reality that there is diversity in any population, no less the absurdity of anyone who believes they have this mind-reading skill. This is then only equalled by inventing oneself as the arbiter of what constitutes "performance".

The only relevant facts we can all recognize in the recent postings are that a M235i accelerates faster and has a different sound than a 228i. The relative importance or lack thereof of that objective data buried in all the above subjectivity will vary person-by-person, none of them having any special ownership of the universal truth of the matter.

These threads would be so much more positive and useful if we could resist the temptation to fabricate supposedly objective "truths" based on nothing more than our own personal and inherently biased opinions.

[den525]

Originally Posted by Xi-Xi

I guess you can't argue with a fanboi (and I don't mean me). Maybe the engine is the so-called "heart" of the car, but it's far from the defining characteristic. You've already admitted that the F22 chassis is great, but for some reason the 228 can't be counted as a "performance" vehicle. Sorry, that's just denying reality. By any rational and objective standard the 228 is clearly a performance oriented automobile. "But the 235 makes a really cool noise when you floor it!!" Whatever....to me it still sounds like a weedwhacker. Nothing sounds as sweet as a V8. In any case, as if engine noise detracts from the stout 4 popper in the 228. That the 228 doesn't have quite the horsepower of other examples in the field completely misses the point (unsurprisingly). Take off the 235i colored glasses and enjoy life.

I'll just close by noting that there are thousands of 228i owners who would disagree with your contention that it isn't a performance vehicle. Yeah, the 228i engine isn't super powerful. So what!!?? Once again, it's not underpowered by any objective standard, and in any case a car doesn't need to have the most powerful power plant to be considered "performance". Why does this fact even need mentioning?! But you keep up your horsepower hunt and eventually you'll be happy. Or not. You do realize that the M235i is superseded in the horsepower department by a lot of other vehicles right? I guess it's not much of a "performance" car.

Once again, such a defensive post. First of all, it's never been about the owners of the 228i, it's about the article.

All I did was express my opinion on the article from my experience, as I have both the 1M and M235i in my garage, while having driven the 228 for a week.

Different people will have different opinions, different people have different needs and wants. For me the 228 is not my cup of tea, I explained why, all you're doing is defending the car from my opinion, which I find strange.

You can say all the owners and yourself believe the 228 is a performance car a million times, it will not change the fact that in my opinion, it is not.

Like I said, for ME the 228 is not for me, I think it's boring, from the start of the engine to driving, I don't find it fun.

A performance car have to have a certain characteristics (which differs from person to person), it's also a whole package. Is a tesla a performance car? 0-100 in under 3 seconds, no as an overall package it's not.

A Renault rs275, it's 0-100 is slower than the 228, but it's definitely more of a performance car than the 228, it drives better, it handles better, the engine/ chassis complements each other and it sounds like a performance car.

At the end of the day, as long as you're happy with your car that's the main thing, hope you're enjoying your car!

[Kolyan2k]

It feels like some 228 owners are defending there purchases and only using the article for that purpose alone.

I get why some who track alot want a track car which weights less, I also get that some (usually older) don't want a fast car. I personally don't want 4 cylinder BMW ,and prefer to stick to almost legendary i6 turbo. I use its power and torque daily and the engine feels great and alive (I wish there was more power stock). N54 was the only reason I bought 335i and N55 is the only reason I bought M235i. I mean e46 M3 is not an M3 without its S54, e92 M3 is not an M3 without that amazing heavy S65 V8, and S2000 is fun to drive daily not because it handles like on rials (well that too) but because of its high rev race engine.....it's addictive. (16 year old 4 cylinder NA making same power as BMW 4 cylinder turbo, now that's something special)

[123Britt]

In 08' I had saved enough money to purchase my 1st BMW 228i -- it was an I-6 with a GM transmission. After about a year the honeymoon was over and I realized that my car did not embody what BMW really stood for (in my mind).
I found a great replacement ~ 07' N54 335i 6MT . My wife was like , Why do you want a manual. I loved this car! And yes -- I do love DIY maintenance and the reason I am on this site. Although not much action on the M235i site (yet and so look forward to the years ahead)
Anyway in Feb of 15' a guy offered me 12k for the car and I sold Silver (what I called my TIAG 335i). I then made a huge mistake by purchasing a C300 RWD (loaded). What a beautiful interior and a perfect sized 4dr. Good 4cly with a crappy transmission. Today the Merc sits in my garage for Sale . My new to me 15' M235i AT AW is my new love. Although the same BMW with a great 4cly engine was available & even handles better due to lighter weight -- I never gave the 228i a look. The 228i with 6MT or AT is an excellent platform ; however, the N55 (so similar to my old friend N54) in the 2 Series chassis transforms the car into a car that embodies what BMW stands for: I-line 6 and a performance orientated chassis that rewards each time you go for a drive. This M235i just does that for me. The R&T article simply points out that a lighter version of the car does handle better & I am ok with that.

[123Britt]

[i8ur911]

This thread is hilarious

[Tpeterson]

Originally Posted by i8ur911

This thread is hilarious

And way too long! Though, I'm not helping that am I?

[BimmerLOVER1234]

228i users pretty sensitive yo. Opinions are good for forums!

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by BimmerLOVER1234

228i users pretty sensitive yo. Opinions are good for forums!

Not sure what a "yo" is, but I find fellow 228i owners to be completely honest in recognizing that their car is not as fast as, nor sounds like, a M235i, but happen to be OK with that. Manual trans owners understand that their cars are not as fast as AT owners' cars, but also happen to be OK with that. There have been lots of conversations and opinions about the cars, these aspects and beyond.

But, they/we do take umbrage at those who 1) take it upon themselves to tell us what we are thinking in choosing our cars, and 2) create supposedly real yet self-serving categories of cars worthy of inclusion or not. Opinions about subjective matters are the basis of forums. But, there will never be a definitive category of "performance" cars as performance has a wide range of meanings....engine performance, suspension performance, brake performance, numerical performance or feeling of performance? How much/little of each meets this mythical line of demarcation? Ask 100 people for 100 different answers.

Pretending to know objective answers on subjective matters is beyond sharing sincere opinions. Note that is where this thread rapidly deteriorated.

[akuan99]

Originally Posted by Kolyan2k

It feels like some 228 owners are defending there purchases and only using the article for that purpose alone.

I think it is the other way around.
Some M235i owners are defending their purchases and disagreeing with this article.

[BimmerLOVER1234]

i highly doubt that. As a 228i owner. i can clearly see you guys aren't being objective in this discussion. The engine is a massive factor. i went with some friends for the test drive of the m235i and the 228i, and almost everyone (no sorry everyone) felt that the 228i's engine was nothing in comparison in terms of feel, sound and responsiveness (frigging turbo lag).

I thought it'd be ok for me, and yea i still think its great, but man do the 4 cylinder's unrefined characteristics irritate me. Enough so for me to go and try the N20 in other lines like the 3 and 5 series, and the result was the same annoying characteristics.

At least from my point of view, theres nothing wrong with people creating categories. (Or you may just call it elitism). After-all its that sorta attitude that drives us to achieve more or to always want more. Wanting more is a good thing.

Anyway, the 230i and 240i are otw out. They are both going to be superior if the 340i is any indication.