[EMpunker]

Originally Posted by Leo88

and so what? You're less cool cause of others not knowing wich car you drive? Ah yeah that's why we buy BMW right?


You don't like going aroud with a brand that sells FWD non-sporty cars? Well you can buy an Audi!
So when you tell someone that you drive an A4 or an A5 they're going to tell you that's a nice car! Who cares if it understeer like shit and share a lot of parts from a WV, people think it's a good car so it fits you.

I'm not saying that it's 'less cool' to own a BMW because other people don't know which model it is. I'm saying it's way too confusing now with all of the different models sharing the same nomenclature. If they want a mini-van, then that is fine. But I think BMW should call it something other than a 2 Series... Especially when it looks nothing like a 2 Series coupe/convertible.

And for your information, Audi does sell FWD non-sporty cars like the A3, A4 and Q5 to name a few.

[StealYourFace]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

Interesting rumours at Geneva point to some US Dealers refusing to sell the Active Tourer.

But Chrysler are looking for more dealers in the States.

Smart, it would instantly drop the premium image of the brand in the US, in my opinion. I guess that would give BMW a justification to raise the price on 2er and 3er models though. Let's face it, at $33k US, the 320i is a bargain. I don't see the 2er Active Tourer starting at any less that $27k US if sold here. Who in the right mind wouldn't move to a 320i for such a small premium. I guess the case can be made for the utility that the new fwd has, but who wouldn't rather have the (ghastly) X1 if the need is space and utility (The x1 reminds me of a Subaru, great car, lots of usable wagony space, tallish stance, but not easy on the eyes).

BMW can be admired for putting their dick in the wind and taking chances on the stratification of their models, some of the new ones look great, but many people like myself would prefer a back to basics approach as part of their strategy. I mean, if you can sell a 3er GT and an X4 which are so so similar, why the hell can't they sell a 328i and 335i wagon, non xi with a stick and for a reasonable price? They are putting cars in the marketplace which will no doubt be low volume, I don't understand why they cannot, or will not add enthusiast models back in that exist in other markets and would have a minimal impact on r&d costs. A 320i, 328i and 335i wagon avail with a stick and m-sport kit would do so much in terms of good will for the people that have been into bmw for a long time.

And stop requiring people to get those needless option packages to get the one or two items that the buyer actually wants. Most people that have driving competency do not need a back up monitor in a mid size or compact sedan or wagon. And many people that have lived in the same area for their entire lives certainly do not need navigation- when they take trips they either get a AAA trip tik or a map or nav on their phone. AND finally people who live in snow areas should not be forced to buy xi cars because it snows 45-60 days a year when snow tires/near 50/50 weight balance/driving skill make for easy winter time transport. In all these years in the snow belt, I have never been stuck in the snow in my old school 330i.

Edit, sorry for the rant, I know for a fact that I am not a global automotive marketing expert, just blowing off some steam

[949]

i hope there is a 235 active sport version. this looks very good. power on the other hand is weak.

[shanecarmaster1]

I haven't posted in a long time, but after this reveal, the reveal of the "M Sport" guise, and my new knowledge that they're revealing a full blown minivan, which will be front wheel drive none the less, I must voice my disgust. I'm actually not against many of the new models, for I think that they all make for a unique design and fulfill certain wants for the driver, but not addressing the elephant in the room is absurd with their floating suspensions and now FWD. How can the executives at BMW not be horridly embarrassed for even thinking of minivan and FWD ideas, none the less produce it? (Don't try to start defending the FWD by referencing the Mini because that's its heritage and it's expected in that car.) I remember a little over a decade ago when BMWs were cool as shit - James Bond drove many of them, seeing one on the road was an experience to behold its beauty, to drive one was a privilege (and modestly rare), and to mistake a BMW for another car was unheard of. BMWs, in every aspect, where cars to admire. Now, any soccermom can get into a lease, there's is basically nothing special about how it drives, and it looks like any other Plain Jane cost-cutting vehicle on the road. I even have the fortune of comparing my flawless and maintained e38 740i M Sport (back when the Sport option actually gave you an entire list of performance upgrades on top of the already-great-from-the-factory cars) and my F02 750Li. One might mistake the new 750 as a hard-riding Lexus. It's simply a highway glider with a twin turbo with a good stereo and that's it. The e38 has such character and such personality, and the past three years' service bills have more than equaled $10k, but I don't care. The lack of care is enhanced when I pull up somewhere with fulfillment of driving such a great machine, only to receive many looks and compliments from pedestrians. There is an aura about "real" BMWs that have been missing, and I bet if we stepped back a decade or two with the knowledge that we have now, we'd be completely stunned at how bad they've gotten these days. We would remember the small and fun Z3, the Z3M, or that bonkers wagon Z3 thing that was really cool, especially with its high-revving and raw inline-6, the perfect e39 with its choice of either NA inline-6 or a nice V8, or the fully insane M5. Then there was the e38: perfection. The X5, although a little disconcerting at its reveal, was great and drove like a BMW. The 3 series was so raw and made great sounds, and then one wonders where we would be today without the insane e46 M3. This whole era still looks new today in the right condition and the right trims, and is still a group of cars that are coveted by their owners. I fully doubt this same passion will stem from the owners of today's BMWs.

I, for one, will probably keep my e38 M Sport until its wheels fall off, and as for a newer car, I will NOT be buying another BMW. They're complete lack of driving dynamics, their lack of concern for their own loyal customers, and the greed is appalling - and I won't tolerate it. And as for the excuse that we use on the boards to defend the driving dynamics: "oh, we're a minority because most people don't know or don't care", I know "normal" people personally who have been turned off by the new model BMW because of how it drove. Their loyal customers are leaving, while wanna-be know-nothings are swarming in to buy their own status symbol.

It's almost weird to veer into other communities, Audi or Mercedes comes to mind, where they're constantly improving their products for the better of their customers. Does everyone know that the new Audi S3 actually likes to break its tail on a track? Do you know who STILL USES HIGH REVVING V8 ENGINES? Do you know who isn't cheapening their interiors? Do you know who actually invests some time and effort into their designs? Do you know who actually tries to be innovative and move forward in a positive way? Not BMW.

[georgere]

man, now that they showed it in the blue color, I can see how small and ugly this car is.

[111R]

BMW can be admired for putting their dick in the wind and taking chances on the stratification of their models, some of the new ones look great, but many people like myself would prefer a back to basics approach as part of their strategy. I mean, if you can sell a 3er GT and an X4 which are so so similar, why the hell can't they sell a 328i and 335i wagon, non xi with a stick and for a reasonable price? They are putting cars in the marketplace which will no doubt be low volume, I don't understand why they cannot, or will not add enthusiast models back in that exist in other markets and would have a minimal impact on r&d costs. A 320i, 328i and 335i wagon avail with a stick and m-sport kit would do so much in terms of good will for the people that have been into bmw for a long time.

And stop requiring people to get those needless option packages to get the one or two items that the buyer actually wants. Most people that have driving competency do not need a back up monitor in a mid size or compact sedan or wagon. And many people that have lived in the same area for their entire lives certainly do not need navigation- when they take trips they either get a AAA trip tik or a map or nav on their phone. AND finally people who live in snow areas should not be forced to buy xi cars because it snows 45-60 days a year when snow tires/near 50/50 weight balance/driving skill make for easy winter time transport. In all these years in the snow belt, I have never been stuck in the snow in my old school 330i.

+1

I for one would have bought a 335i manual RWD wagon (with sunroof delete, thank you) instead of my E90 sedan had it been available at the time. When I bought my car, I went with minimum options since I didn't need/want nav, rear sunshade, and a whole bag of useless options that would mean more stuff that breaks down the road. One of the reasons we didn't go with an X1 for my wife was that in order to get upgraded lights, $6k in option packages were required.

[Ash83]

There is a special place in hell for whoever designed and approved this car.

[TheBingoBalls]

Originally Posted by shanecarmaster1

It's almost weird to veer into other communities, Audi or Mercedes comes to mind, where they're constantly improving their products for the better of their customers. Does everyone know that the new Audi S3 actually likes to break its tail on a track? Do you know who STILL USES HIGH REVVING V8 ENGINES? Do you know who isn't cheapening their interiors? Do you know who actually invests some time and effort into their designs? Do you know who actually tries to be innovative and move forward in a positive way? Not BMW.

1. S3 likes to break it's tail on the track. What? and BMW's don't?

2. High Revving V8 Engines. Does BMW not have high revving V8s? Look at the AMG engines that were used in the current generation, those are already stated to be gone next-gen. Everyone is downsizing. It's so easy to take an engine (from Lamborghini), tweak it and throw it in a car vs. having to build one in house. This isn't even about which engine is better, it's strictly about the resources available and Audi has this in spades over BMW and it's not even close. This point/argument is stupid.

3. Who's cheapening their interiors? Mercedes is the only one that I can say has the best interiors in terms of quality. But this is subjective. All 3 marques have their high's and low's.

4. Innovative? What, the i8 and i3 aren't innovative? Who else is mass producing their own CFRP and planning on using it extensively throughout their lineup?

Nothing you stated or pointed out proves anything. It's just things you (the enthusiast) dislike about BMW but you don't see that all 3 German marques are more or less the same now. You can't say one is better than the other.

Let me ask you something. Which marque(s) are part of a bigger auto group? Not BMW.

[Black Flagged]

not feel it...

[shanecarmaster1]

Originally Posted by TheBingoBalls

1. S3 likes to break it's tail on the track. What? and BMW's don't?

2. High Revving V8 Engines. Does BMW not have high revving V8s? Look at the AMG engines that were used in the current generation, those are already stated to be gone next-gen. Everyone is downsizing. It's so easy to take an engine (from Lamborghini), tweak it and throw it in a car vs. having to build one in house. This isn't even about which engine is better, it's strictly about the resources available and Audi has this in spades over BMW and it's not even close. This point/argument is stupid.

3. Who's cheapening their interiors? Mercedes is the only one that I can say has the best interiors in terms of quality. But this is subjective. All 3 marques have their high's and low's.

4. Innovative? What, the i8 and i3 aren't innovative? Who else is mass producing their own CFRP and planning on using it extensively throughout their lineup?

Nothing you stated or pointed out proves anything. It's just things you (the enthusiast) dislike about BMW but you don't see that all 3 German marques are more or less the same now. You can't say one is better than the other.

Let me ask you something. Which marque(s) are part of a bigger auto group? Not BMW.

1. Pointing out that the S3 likes to get its tail out is me saying that they're moving in an ideal direction: BMW is busy pumping fake sound into its interior while Audi is busy making their cars more fun.

2. The Audi RS5 is what I had in mind when I said that. Yes, AMG is downsizing - I'm not denying that. (The e90/e92/e93 M3 is out of production before you bring that up.)

3. BMW is cheapening their interiors. I thought that my F30 loaner was going to break when I touched those air vents! Everything feels hollow and without much attention to detail. Even the newer 6s and 7s feel somewhat normal in interior quality.

4. Yes, the i3 and i8 are innovative, and I can see reducing the weight of the mainstream vehicles as a product of the i3 and i8, but I'm speaking about simple aspects on a mainstream scale. Look at the new S550. Cameras that scan the road for imperfections, completely LED, scented air, the design, heated door panels and armrests, etc. Those types of moves aren't coming from BMW.

My mission was not to prove anything, just to put BMW into perspective from my observations and opinions.

[Z8chP]

So Toyota discontinued the matrix so BMW can bring it back. Gotcha. (Regarding the m sport model only)

[joe163]

first f30 f32 losing to comparisons in a magazine that everyone thought was owned by bmw to an 8 year old chassis from audi, now we have a fwd minivan in the 2 series lineup....

what makes bmw think this will sell well in the states？ take rate on fwd a3 is very very low isn't it? and i dont think MB is even selling their B class here.
unless of course they make the MSRP below 30k

[Worra]

A FWD minivan with M badging on the fender? This makes me feel lots of things but mostly sadness.

[Patman]

mix a Volkswagen Golf VI and a Toyota Corolla Verso and you got the active tourer ...

with the m sport package it was like light coming to me ... it's a golf in front, and Toyota on the rear.

add a FWD ...

and all is here to say : Satan entered the christian BMW temple !

[Leo88]

Originally Posted by shanecarmaster1

I haven't posted in a long time, but after this reveal, the reveal of the "M Sport" guise, and my new knowledge that they're revealing a full blown minivan, which will be front wheel drive none the less, I must voice my disgust. I'm actually not against many of the new models, for I think that they all make for a unique design and fulfill certain wants for the driver, but not addressing the elephant in the room is absurd with their floating suspensions and now FWD. How can the executives at BMW not be horridly embarrassed for even thinking of minivan and FWD ideas, none the less produce it? (Don't try to start defending the FWD by referencing the Mini because that's its heritage and it's expected in that car.) I remember a little over a decade ago when BMWs were cool as shit - James Bond drove many of them, seeing one on the road was an experience to behold its beauty, to drive one was a privilege (and modestly rare), and to mistake a BMW for another car was unheard of. BMWs, in every aspect, where cars to admire. Now, any soccermom can get into a lease, there's is basically nothing special about how it drives, and it looks like any other Plain Jane cost-cutting vehicle on the road. I even have the fortune of comparing my flawless and maintained e38 740i M Sport (back when the Sport option actually gave you an entire list of performance upgrades on top of the already-great-from-the-factory cars) and my F02 750Li. One might mistake the new 750 as a hard-riding Lexus. It's simply a highway glider with a twin turbo with a good stereo and that's it. The e38 has such character and such personality, and the past three years' service bills have more than equaled $10k, but I don't care. The lack of care is enhanced when I pull up somewhere with fulfillment of driving such a great machine, only to receive many looks and compliments from pedestrians. There is an aura about "real" BMWs that have been missing, and I bet if we stepped back a decade or two with the knowledge that we have now, we'd be completely stunned at how bad they've gotten these days. We would remember the small and fun Z3, the Z3M, or that bonkers wagon Z3 thing that was really cool, especially with its high-revving and raw inline-6, the perfect e39 with its choice of either NA inline-6 or a nice V8, or the fully insane M5. Then there was the e38: perfection. The X5, although a little disconcerting at its reveal, was great and drove like a BMW. The 3 series was so raw and made great sounds, and then one wonders where we would be today without the insane e46 M3. This whole era still looks new today in the right condition and the right trims, and is still a group of cars that are coveted by their owners. I fully doubt this same passion will stem from the owners of today's BMWs.

I, for one, will probably keep my e38 M Sport until its wheels fall off, and as for a newer car, I will NOT be buying another BMW. They're complete lack of driving dynamics, their lack of concern for their own loyal customers, and the greed is appalling - and I won't tolerate it. And as for the excuse that we use on the boards to defend the driving dynamics: "oh, we're a minority because most people don't know or don't care", I know "normal" people personally who have been turned off by the new model BMW because of how it drove. Their loyal customers are leaving, while wanna-be know-nothings are swarming in to buy their own status symbol.

It's almost weird to veer into other communities, Audi or Mercedes comes to mind, where they're constantly improving their products for the better of their customers. Does everyone know that the new Audi S3 actually likes to break its tail on a track? Do you know who STILL USES HIGH REVVING V8 ENGINES? Do you know who isn't cheapening their interiors? Do you know who actually invests some time and effort into their designs? Do you know who actually tries to be innovative and move forward in a positive way? Not BMW.

Not Audi and not Mercedes too! i don't know wich brand you're talking about, but every car maker is downsizing, using turbos (even Ferrari!!!) and changing from the past. Electric motors, hybrids cars and smaller engines are the future, if you don't like it stop buying new cars because in 5 years every car will be like this.


Anyway, compare an M135 with an S3, a 431i and a S5 and let's see how bad BMWs are!

[glangford]

I have to admit I like it. I'll be adding a SUV or crossover as my wife's car. If this handles great and has an AWD variant, it will get serious consideration.

[TheBingoBalls]

Originally Posted by shanecarmaster1

1. Pointing out that the S3 likes to get its tail out is me saying that they're moving in an ideal direction: BMW is busy pumping fake sound into its interior while Audi is busy making their cars more fun.

2. The Audi RS5 is what I had in mind when I said that. Yes, AMG is downsizing - I'm not denying that. (The e90/e92/e93 M3 is out of production before you bring that up.)

3. BMW is cheapening their interiors. I thought that my F30 loaner was going to break when I touched those air vents! Everything feels hollow and without much attention to detail. Even the newer 6s and 7s feel somewhat normal in interior quality.

4. Yes, the i3 and i8 are innovative, and I can see reducing the weight of the mainstream vehicles as a product of the i3 and i8, but I'm speaking about simple aspects on a mainstream scale. Look at the new S550. Cameras that scan the road for imperfections, completely LED, scented air, the design, heated door panels and armrests, etc. Those types of moves aren't coming from BMW.

My mission was not to prove anything, just to put BMW into perspective from my observations and opinions.

You make fair points.

1. The flip side to that if Audi wants BMW money (by making cars more fun), BMW wants Lexus money. You can only stick to one formula for so long before you start to see flat growth.

2. Not really an observation. By stating that, you're implying that BMW/Mercedes isn't making those engines but VW/Audi are continuing to do so. Again, it's a generation thing.

3. Perhaps you can make an argument for the 3-Series (I personally think the F30 almost makes the E9X interior feel more shitty whenever I sit in one, but maybe that's me.) But you can't honestly tell me the 5-Series, 6-Series and 7-Series are cheap interiors today and not an improvement from the EXX chassis. I don't know many people that would agree with you. The 6-Series, from a quality and layout perspective, is the best interior BMW has ever built and rivals that from Audi and Mercedes.

4. Not going to argue this because we can go back/forth. What I will say is, the reason why the new S-Class has all those features is because Mercedes is turning the S-Class into something more that Audi and BMW won't do to the A8 and 7-Series because they have Bentley and Rolls Royce. All those things you listed in the new S-Class are lifted from the Maybach - they're trying to kill two birds/one stone.

[ace11]

how this was classed as a 2 series is still beyond me..😣😣

[bozola]

Bring Me To America!

[w3rkn]

The following pic, is the exact reason I no longer (after 35 years) consider myself a BMW enthusiast.


BMW no longer has a heartbeat, or pulse. This Active Tourer exemplifies BMW's new credo... Executive income, over focused vehicles. (ie: Toss BMW historical DNA out, & just make cars that say BMW...)



So... congrats to BMW, for becoming the new General Motors of the world, making tons & tons of models, that have no heart...

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

Interesting rumours at Geneva point to some US Dealers refusing to sell the Active Tourer.

Because these dealers know this car is pointless.


Honestly, what is an "Active Tourer" ..?
It sound like a misguided translation, that led to a car designed by committee, instead of an actual need, or focus.

Nobody is going to buy an Active Tourer, when they can buy something more Manly, like a Ford Escape for much less. Plus, they won't be getting laughed at, for buying a BMW (In America) that looks like an econo-box, bitch-car.

It looks like a cheap Korean car, trying to be a BMW.... so embarrassed for BMW.

[s!ke]

Looks like a Honda fit

[3M TAPE]

Lets face it (and be honest), every new BMW models for the last 2 years has been NO GOOD.
Starting with the 3 series (already looks outdated), 2-series (you KNOW it is ugly, I'm sure it drives well), 4 series / M4 (it's just not as good as the E92) and the X5 (come on, more like a facelift). Now the X4 (Macan really is the winner here, even though BMW has created this segment) and this 2 series Tourer (enough is enough). Very sad.

I'm sorry BMW but it's time to ask your people "What da hell is going on in the deisgn department?"
I say bring back Mr. Bangle or fire all design department people including Mr. Karim