12-27-2012, 05:48 PM | #67 | |||
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I personally hope it comes with a 4 cyl motor as well. better economy and probably darn near similar power along with a ton of torque. Quote:
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12-27-2012, 06:40 PM | #68 | |
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12-27-2012, 06:50 PM | #69 |
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Current M135i (and M235i for N/A): 320 hp I-6
M2: 340-360 hp I-6 M4: 450ish hp I-6 The N20 will be reserved for lesser 2er's once they arrive in 2014. My humble predictions.
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12-27-2012, 07:40 PM | #70 |
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I want a 1m so bad, I wish that the US got more than >1000. The prices for used ones are crazy. That and the lack of decent colors, sorry but that orange isn't great and I would bet money it won't age well, unlike imola, esoril, ib ect.
Has anyone done an IB wrap or repaint on a 1m? As for as the M2 goes, if it winds up being an N20 and maybe weighs 150lb less than the 1m, that would be pretyty cool. I am sure we will hear test car vids soo, which will give it away.
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12-28-2012, 05:47 AM | #73 |
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As many say, I too like I6 engines, but the I6 engine is a good engine only in specific uses. It is not bad in the M135i, but alot of the power is not really necessary. On track the FWD Renault Mégane RS does very well with "only" 265 PS. I am quite sure the new Audi S3 with 300 PS, will be as fast, and probably even faster than the M135i. Is the M2 going after laptime and sprint time records? Maybe, but that will be disappointing for me. Look at the BRZ/GT86, a wonderful car, which with the right tires only, gets instanly much faster on track and in acceleration, with only 200 PS and NA 205 Nm.
One thing most of you forget is that turbocharging is no magic. Turbocharging is "cheap" power, but may cost even more if the get it right. I like the idea of a smaller displacement I6 (BMW 320i and Lexus IS200 with 2.0l I6) but I don't see BMW doing that. N55 is the same engine as N20 but with two cylinders more. BMW has the N16, if like for the N20, we could then get a 2.4l I6, but I doubt BMW would do that for the M2 only, for cost reasons, just as they didn't give the 3.3l V6 for the M3, again for cost reasons only. Do not forget to take into consideration the weight that turbocharging adds. N20: 146 kg (TC 2.0l I4) N52: 161 kg (NA 3.0l I6) N54: 195 kg (TC 3.0l I6) S54: 217 kg (NA 3.2l I6) S65: 202 kg (NA 4.0l V8) S85: 240 kg (NA 5.0l V10) The more torque of an I6 is not worth the added weight over an I4. Another question would be wether the added torque got by a turbocharged engine is worth the added weight. For performance yes, handling, I'm not sure. By the way, does anybody know the weight of the N63 and S63? Well, BMW did not release the numbers, the added weight compared to the S85 is shocking. It would not be easy to justify turbocharging. |
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12-28-2012, 10:03 AM | #74 | |
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12-28-2012, 10:41 AM | #75 | ||
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My APR tuned GTI - Turbo, intercooled puts out about 300ft/lb, 250 hp at crank. Plenty of power, no turbo lag due to small k03 turbo. Car weighs about 3100# which is pretty heavy but that thing moves.. Just to show that i4 turbo m2 can be very possible. |
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12-28-2012, 10:45 AM | #76 | |
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I've heard people complain about the 1 series M coupe's drivetrain being a weakness, but they tend to be the ones who wuoldn't go back to MT after the DCT. I can see the DCT being offered in the M2 now that the engineers have more time for scheduling and approvals. A carbon fiber reinforced plastic roof is also a strong possibility due to, agian, a longer development time. Time will also tell if Carbon Ceramic brakes will be offered across the M line up. Seeing quad pipes on a 4 cylinder car (even though an M signature design) might look rediculous from under the car, but we have seen this before on cars such as the subaru sti. Just some thoughts....
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12-28-2012, 11:02 AM | #77 |
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320 hp N20 twin turbo 4cylinder
335-345 ft lb torque 7500 rpm 3100 lbs $46,000 BMW already eschewed the Single Turbo n55 for the N54T in the 1M, and giving a 4 cyl the secret M sauce treatment would make the car a hoot. The lighter N20 motor is a massive step in reducing weight. the 4 cyl motor will be powerful, torquey, and also more fuel efficient. hopefully it's also inexpensive to make since its already in cars like the f30. If they can put a six in then that would be awesome as well, but most importantly. HOLD THE LINE ON PRICE. I would love to see the 2M come out at the exact same price as the 1M like BMW did with the original e30m3 and e36m3 at $34,995. There is no reason the 2m should run more than 1M and should be under 50K price point as much as possible as a reasonably affordable M car in comparison to the STI/EVO/A5/R32. |
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12-28-2012, 11:10 AM | #78 | |
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However, I am also trying to express my expectation that maybe it just doesn't need to do that and try to match all that tq and even hp, if you keep the weight low enough which will have additional benefits too. I would be as happy if not happier if my car had "just" 300 hp and 400 nm instead of 360 hp and 560 nm that it has now, but only if it would weigh 1300 kg instead of 1500 kg (base 1M before options weigh 1495 kg. or 1570 kg in Euro norm with driver and gas).
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12-28-2012, 11:11 AM | #79 | |
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12-28-2012, 11:14 AM | #80 | ||
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The success of the 1 series M coupe was a game changer in the sense that it showed the heads at BMW that the demand for a smaller sport (read: M car) was present. The continuation with the M2 is an extension of this and will introduce a more affordable M car to their line up, and one that fits the need for peoples demands for a small sports coupe.
In Europe they had huge success with the M135i, and I truely believe that if the E82 was not at the end of its life cycle, we would have seen the 1 series M coupe run for more than 1 year of production. The M2 is their second chance, or as you put it a "continuation". Now BMW M has to be careful of not stepping on the toes of the M3 (where the 1M was already very close in doing so) so I believe a 4 cylinder will fit the bill perfectly. Quote:
I Agree lesser 2's such as a 228i will carry the N20, but the M2 will have a reinforced, high output N20 maybe dubbed the S20. This S20 could also very well have a larger displacement than the current N20. Quote:
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12-28-2012, 11:20 AM | #81 | |
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I honestly believe your numbers will be close to what the M2 will have. Except for two things: 330 hp/360 ft/lb (overboost), and unfortunately the price will likely be around $55k. Again, I believe it will have it's own designation for the motor, not an N20 but S20, hopefully with more displacement. ::fingers crossed::
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12-28-2012, 01:10 PM | #82 | |
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BTW ... I got my last ///M3 at Budd's Happy 2013 to you and yours!
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12-28-2012, 01:25 PM | #83 |
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In these lean times (despite the fact that BMW is doing exceptionally well and bucking the trend), how much R&D, time and money will BMW and sister division ///M put into a 4 cyl motor destined to power such a niche vehicle as the M2 (and probably a 4 dr version of some sort later on)??
Kardboard argues why BMW would put essentially the same motor into the M2 and M4 (albeit detuned for the M2). To counter, the N55 appears to be BMW's bread and butter motor that powers just about everything in their lineup in some form or another - with minor adjustments to tune, etc depending on the model. In the upcoming M4, the N55 will have been developed to its zenith...and M4 buyers will be justifiably paying for the ultimate in precision and power from this highly modified engine. To build upon the N55 in the euro M135 and bring it up to the appropriate performance expectations of consumers (everyone's talking somewhere between 340 and 360 hp for either the 4 cyl or 6 cyl) would be exceptionally cost effective and still offer a discernable distinction between the current M-Performance motor and one destined for the M2. A similar distinction (actually much greater, approx. +100 hp) will separate the M2 and the M3. So yes....similar building blocks but 3 very unique end products. And if there are concerns that the performance levels of future M2's and M4's would be too close with the N55 as it's core motor, there'll be even greater concerns about the similarities between the M-Performance I-6 and M2 I-4 motors once the M135/M235 are global automobiles. M135/M235 owners will be in their glory and will they "step up" to a 4 cylinder motor? Speaking of which, the N20 is similarly populating the BMW range, from the X1 through to the 5 series here in N/A. It's a great motor (I've driven it extensively in X1's and F30's) but bumping it up in power (from a reliable 240 hp/260 lbs tq) to the 350-360 range with the appropriate low-end grunt that the M-Performance I-6 provides will be a financial challenge. And "reliable" at this level means typical BMW overengineering which equates to more $$$. As for weight....I strongly suspect that BMW ///M will compensate their use of the modified N55 with structural modifications to the 2 er platform. The exceptionally consistant rave reviews that the M-Performance M135i has garnered are the result of BMW ///M's "engineering & content medling" to the tune of only 30% or so over an AG model. A purpose-built ///M vehicle is massaged by ///M division to the tune of 80% over an AG model (as per BMW's Christof Lischka). Wow...what would the owners and drivers of the M135i do with all that extra magic??? I think we'll find out with the M2...and it's I-6
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12-28-2012, 01:28 PM | #84 | |
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Absolutely mister. Just put it out to see if there was any potential for future interest...knowing that we're still 2 yrs or so away. Good to hear from you and we'll talk.....Mark
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12-28-2012, 05:22 PM | #85 | ||
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If BMW will not do that, spend R&D for an M2 worthy engine, it will be really disapointing for all true BMW enthusiasts. How come the everything that made up BMW is now done better by its rivals? How is it Audi Quattro can spend on a "new" 2.0l I4 making 300 PS, evenmoreso Mercedes AMG on a brand new 2.0l I4 making 350 PS (if rumors are true)? I really do not know what will an I6 bring for an M2? The BRZ/GT86 was voted COTY by so many journals, on paper it was really to worst, and even in real life its 200 Nm are almost shameful for a car called sportscar. I do understand you however, for getting from a V8 (E9XM) to an I4 (M2). |
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12-28-2012, 11:37 PM | #86 |
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I4 or I6 it will be great, all I care is that I can pick up a used 1m for a reasonable price once it's released.
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12-29-2012, 12:50 AM | #87 | |
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But just so you know that I'm not a complete 4 cyl hater, I've got a Golf R in the family that's tuned to approx. 300 hp and similar torques. Fabulous car, fun car, does most everything exceptionally well and it's fast and has lots of grunt but...it's a 4. And I know it every second that I'm in it. Then again, the Golf R and similarly sized hot hatches like the Renault Megane 265, Opel/Vauxhall VXR, Focus ST and all the other 2.0 L wondercars you guys have in Europe (ok we've got the ST now) are meant to have 4's. It's what the market continues to demand and what auto manufacturers do best.....for this class of automobile. If I did a seat of the pants, side by side comparison of my R with our N/A 135i right now - on road or on track - there'd be "one" clear winner. No pun intended. Ramp that up to a comparison between the R and the M135i and BMW could be arrested for bullying. One step further with an R or similar vs the 1M and the comparisons become absolutely pointless. Is BMW ///M suddenly going to fight fair in 2015??? I think not. I hope not. In my mind, despite the similar sizing and intended purpose of all these vehicles, the BMW's occupy and define a different class. They seem to have a knack for this and I'd be surprised to see them change their game with the M2. Last point.....I was really excited a few months ago when a good friend bought a FR-S (our BRZ/GT86). Got to drive it/ride in it quite a lot since then. Pretty cool car but on the road where all of us drive almost all of the time (come on, be honest...track days are just a once-in-awhile treat) it is harsh, noisy, way too underpowered, cheesy inside with hard plastic everywhere and the list goes on. Great seats, gearbox and steering feel though. And it's tossable as all of the journalists have said. But I could never live with this car as is. An I-6 would fix it right up Cheers!
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12-30-2012, 10:29 AM | #88 |
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Any current E92 M3 owners thinking about changing up to the new M2 when it comes out?
Sure, it's a few years away but... |
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