[dradernh]

Originally Posted by PeanuKeeyes

Watkins Glen was a great test of the cars ability. It was my first event driving with NASA in DE-2, the paddock was slammed, and the weather was perfect. I really like this group a lot! The debriefing sessions were informative and it was a largely drama-free event.

Thanks for sharing your experience at arguably the greatest track in North America.

Do you have any video you can show us? I always find it exciting to watch videos from the Glen, and seeing the remarkably wide variety of cars that drivers bring to a NASA Northeast event makes it that much more interesting.

[PeanuKeeyes]

Originally Posted by dradernh

Do you have any video you can show us? I always find it exciting to watch videos from the Glen, and seeing the remarkably wide variety of cars that drivers bring to a NASA Northeast event makes it that much more interesting.

I do have some onboard footage but I haven’t uploaded anything to YouTube in about 10 years! I think I’ll start a new channel this week. The GoPro was new out the box and I expected the battery to be charged, but it wasn’t. Someone loaned me a battery for my last outing of the day and by that time my brakes were giving me trouble, so no full-send footage, but I will definitely link what I have once it’s uploaded.

There were no other 2-series of any kind there the entire weekend that I saw. I walked the paddock several times over and nothing. Not even an M2! Shocking. — tons of spec E30, E46, spec Miata, some S2000’s, Lotus, Corvettes, etc. kind of standard issue appearances.

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by PeanuKeeyes

I do have some onboard footage but I haven’t uploaded anything to YouTube in about 10 years! I think I’ll start a new channel this week. The GoPro was new out the box and I expected the battery to be charged, but it wasn’t. Someone loaned me a battery for my last outing of the day and by that time my brakes were giving me trouble, so no full-send footage, but I will definitely link what I have once it’s uploaded.

There were no other 2-series of any kind there the entire weekend that I saw. I walked the paddock several times over and nothing. Not even an M2! Shocking. — tons of spec E30, E46, spec Miata, some S2000’s, Lotus, Corvettes, etc. kind of standard issue appearances.

Great – looking forward to seeing whatever you can upload!

I had the same issue when I unboxed my first GoPro at the track. That was rather inconvenient as I'd hired three people for an open-lapping weekend and video & data reviews were a big part of evaluating how I was doing. We limped through with a single battery.

After learning the hard way, I bought enough batteries so that I had one freshly-charged for each day's session and a few charged back-ups. I also bought four of the SanDisk Extreme 32 GB SDHC Class 10 flash memory cards (this was for a Hero 2 – no idea what current GoPros require). At a regular TT or HPDE event, those two sets of gear allowed me the option of waiting until I was back at the hotel for the night to download video and re-charge batteries. After getting out of the car and checking tire pressures, first thing I did was swap the memory cards and batteries and then put the camera back in the car, ready for the next session. One way to go at it, anyway.

I'm not surprised to hear there were no other 2 series that you saw. NASA is fairly hard-core, and our cars don't really fit that profile. The cars you've listed are generally a fair amount lighter than ours are to start with, and while I never spent time looking at how non-race cars at NASA NE events were built, I'd guess most of them have been lightened in one way or another, sometimes extensively. Weight is easily the biggest enemy of going around a track fast, although the Glen's a high-speed track and power can overcome that disadvantage, up to a point.

You mentioned TT4. I don't know how far you've gotten into this (and I'm too lazy to look it up right now), but do you happen to know the #/RWHP limit for the class? (I'm guessing 11-12#/RWHP.) On the required Dynojet, do you think the 30 RWHP you mentioned will raise you up to that limit? With the mods you envision having, what do you expect your car's on-track weight will be at that RWHP (if you've gotten that far)? I lived and breathed this stuff for a few years; if you think I can help in any way or you want to bounce an idea around, feel free to ask.

[PeanuKeeyes]

Hey Dradernh

Good advice on the GoPro method. I will apply that wisdom next time I’m out! —
So I’m still easing into all this, but improving pretty quickly every time. I just have a feel for it and I know this is something I’ll be doing for as long as I can. There’s no urgency for me to get out and compete this year in Time Trials, but the more seat time I have, the deeper the addiction becomes, and the desire to race somebody is growing! lol.

Thinking about trying TT4 next year, although I admittedly do not know the full extent of the rules or requirements yet. Lots of time to get familiar while I continue the DE train. Yes, TT4 is 12#/RWHP and I feel confident the 228i can meet that with some choice modifications. As it stands, my car is just 3200lbs with many (U.S.) dynos showing the N20 around 230whp. The power bump would have to be closer to 40-50whp to make it work out correctly. The Bootmod3 remap should be capable of doing this without much fuss. I assume on-track weight includes me in the car, which brings it up to 3,380lbs.

My friend with the race spec FR-S who’s been doing this for years has driven my car and loves it so much he wants one. But he posed the question as to whether or not I thought it could be competitive, and I think the answer is yes! As long as I stay thin

GSR was onto something with their build a few years ago, they just pushed the N20 beyond its limits with 330ishwhp, blew it up, and bailed on the project. This is never going to be anything more than a 300whp car, tops, and it doesn’t need to be. This thing handles, regardless of pig status.

The idea with this car is a modern take on a E36 325i clubsport.

An engine tune, some safety mods, a Wavetrac LSD+Turner subframe bushings, KW suspension and driver mod and we’re good to go.

[msendit]

Originally Posted by PeanuKeeyes

Hey Dradernh

Not dradernh, but I know a few things about NASA ST/TT as well. Awesome you're getting excited about TT! To get started, really all you need is a transponder, not even safety.

Building a competitive car, especially in ST4/TT4, is a whole different ballgame. In my region (NorCal), that's easily the class with most competition and often pretty good results nationally. Be prepared to spend, well, a lot. And to experiment, since ours is a not very proven chassis.

In addition to the things you listed, several things at the minimum:
- be careful when tuning, especially if you're going for 40-50 hp. You want useable power across the rev range, not just the high peak number most "street" tunes go after for bragging rights. The NASA P/W calculation reflects that -- you take an average from several values around your peak.

- you need to max out tires. NASA has their own templates (check the rules about details), but think roughly a 275 Toyo RR mounted on a 10" rim for a 3200 lbs car. On our chassis this means fender work, of course. There's positive P/W modifiers you can get for running narrower tires, but they're generally not worth it.

- along the previous point, there are positive modifiers for running Toyo RRs or UTOG 100 tires (compared to non-DOT tires, like Hoosiers). These are generally worth it. Not just because of the obscene cost of Hoosiers -- the current crop of UTOG 100 tires (Maxxis RC-1, Nankang AR-1, Toyo RR) is actually pretty good.

- you need to max out aero. In ST4, it's pretty simple, just a rear wing (look at the mounting rules) and a 4" splitter.

Not saying the above to discourage you. Just the opposite -- you know already this thing is like crack Just pointing out the basic things allowed by the rules that others in a competitive class will max out.

IMHO, if you can slot near the top P/W range of TT5, you should go after that. Even if it means detuning / adding a bit of ballast. There's plenty of other rules to max out without worrying about the added reliability trouble of 40-50 extra useable HP.

[dradernh]

msendit is offering excellent advice, and it's more current with specifics than mine would be.

The idea of dropping down a class is always one worth exploring. The TT guys are all about winning, and if that will help you win then it's something to consider.

In that vein, "But he posed the question as to whether or not I thought it could be competitive"...could be a message in there. Might be worth asking before you get serious.

For reference, below are the TT4 & TT5 results from NASA NE's last two outings to the Glen. Looks like no one ran TT5 this past weekend. If it was me, first thing I'd do is take a look at the car models and mods those guys up front are running. I believe you can look at other NASA drivers' classification sheets online now, so most or all of what those cars are about is available to you. That would be very useful information.

[Maynard]

I'd vote for lightening and driver work before adding HP (HP mods bring the need for improved cooling, and reduced reliability). I hear that a rear seat delete nets around #50 weight savings, and easily reversible (if your rules allow for that); also those light batteries can save a lot. For mods, it may be worthwhile to look into improved intercooler, so you can actually use the hp you have for the whole session (these pull timing before they are sending overheating warnings, so heat soak is a common complaint).

[PeanuKeeyes]

I’ve been running the car to redline at practically every 20min session lately with temps never getting above 230 degrees. Granted, it’s spring and the weather has been a factor in this, but I push the car pretty hard and it’s never been heat soaked. I have the aux intercooler setup as I have the m sport package so that definitely is making a difference. I agree about stock power and I read up on TT5 a bit and I think the car would be better suited for that touring class next year or whenever the time is right. — just putting in as much time in the seat as I can afford for now and running my current tires until they’re clapped out.

KW clubsport suspension, some modest weight savings, Wavetrac LSD + subframe bushings, and a slightly more aggressive/wider compound tire would be an ideal build IMO and all those things appear to be legal for T5, correct me if I’m wrong.

I don’t doubt the need for cooling upgrades in the future. I may try to avoid running it July/August this year to avoid overheating and I’m usually too busy with work anyway around that time.

[PeanuKeeyes]

Originally Posted by msendit

IMHO, if you can slot near the top P/W range of TT5, you should go after that. Even if it means detuning / adding a bit of ballast. There's plenty of other rules to max out without worrying about the added reliability trouble of 40-50 extra useable HP.

I like this idea a lot, actually! T5 touring class is likely where this car would shine, right? wouldn’t have to stress the motor with heavy tuning, and by adding the KW Clubsport’s, I’d be deleting the OEM active suspension in compliance with the rules.
At ~3,400lbs with me in it @ ~233rwhp, it already puts me at 14.5— slight engine tuning and/or modest weight reduction could get me to 14.0

What’s your recommendation for safety upgrades, especially when considering TT? Would it be much different between T4 and T5?

[msendit]

Originally Posted by PeanuKeeyes

I like this idea a lot, actually! T5 touring class is likely where this car would shine, right?

There's one way to find out! It involves sending it

That weight would put you in the max 266 mm measured section width range for tires. I run a lighter car in ST5 that needs to fit 257 mm, and know that 245-size RRs on a 9" rim fit that, with little to spare. So, you can probably get away with 255-size on a 9.5".

Note, TT5 still allows some aero -- you can either claim BTM (unmodified body, basically) and get extra 0.4 P/W to play with; or do a wing below the roofline and air dam for free. Some of the heavier cars in class seem to do OK with BTM, but YMMV. Part of the reason I like the touring classes is you get to experiment with things like that and see what works for your setup

Originally Posted by PeanuKeeyes

What’s your recommendation for safety upgrades, especially when considering TT? Would it be much different between T4 and T5?

In terms of what's required, TT is the same as HPDE -- nothing. And really, rollover protection on modern cars is pretty good. So you can technically go on without doing anything.

That said, safety is a bit of a package deal -- you can't mix and match street and racing bits. And the F22 seats are quite bad -- not only do they weigh a metric ton, but it seems like the designers' sole purpose was to disconnect your butt from what the car's doing under it.

So yeah, if you need to get rid of the seats to drive the car closer to its limits, you're looking at the typical: seats + 5/6-point harness + rollbar combo. Only piece of advice would be to ask around the NASA paddock who made their rollcage. Good fabricators tend to travel by word of mouth and their schedules fill lots of months in advance.

(Speaking of TT, shameless plug, my region is trying their hand at this youtube thing, and just did a short bit on TT.)

[PeanuKeeyes]

Solid video, liked and sub’d. Never know, I may move out that way sometime in the next few years, so it’s good to keep an eye on what’s going on.

Good info about tire specs. I have a set of Apex wheels but they’re only 8.5” width. Technically, I could stretch a 255 over that, though I know it’s not recommended. I don’t think a 245 leaves the car particularly under-tired for my power output, (I know it’s not the greatest for the i6 versions), But when we’re talking about eking out the most performance, maybe I should save up for the 9.5” set? Not going to be on the list for this season, regardless due to budget restraints.

Aero is definitely too aggressive for my build. Wing, that is. If I put a half cage and harness/Recaro pole position seat, I’ll be keeping it all black and as subtle as possible. I’d like to keep it as pedestrian as possible (from the outside)

One of the inspirations for the clubsport-type build is from this video by Robert Cameron on his channel, Heel Toe.Blog, which is full of damn good content. Obviously, this build is pretty extreme, but it’s not flashy and it’s not trying to be an M-car.

Next up is Palmer Motorsports Park this Saturday. I’m going to mix it up a bit and run my street tires since it’s effectively a stop on my way to Maine for Mother’s Day. Should be interesting running All Seasons on that track but forecast shows rain anyway.

Extra pic from the Glen because it cracks me up. Ultimate hero shot lol

[PeanuKeeyes]

As promised, my first video upload. Before y’all jump through the screen at me for taking both hands off the wheel at 100mph, just know I’m not planning on making it a habit!

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by PeanuKeeyes

taking both hands off the wheel at 100mph

Nothing wrong with that, but the place to do it is at 0:28 as you've very briefly got the wheel straight and pointed at the flag station while going up the hill between T2 & T3.

That's an excellent place to relax your hands on the wheel so that the suspension can more easily unwind during the quick right-to-left transition under load. You can even do "Look ma, no hands!" if you want to impress – but just for a tiny second!

[smchuck]

Originally Posted by dradernh

Nothing wrong with that, but the place to do it is at 0:28 as you've very briefly got the wheel straight and pointed at the flag station while going up the hill between T2 & T3.

That's an excellent place to relax your hands on the wheel so that the suspension can more easily unwind during the quick right-to-left transition under load. You can even do "Look ma, no hands!" if you want to impress – but just for a tiny second!

Race car drivers will sometimes take their hands off the wheel on a straight to snug up harness, relax their arms or maybe get a nice drink.

[ggggbmw]

It was interesting watching the viewpoint of the video with a helmet mounted camera, and how much you tilt your head going through corners. I find myself doing that too, and always wonder if it's a bad habit or not. I do try to keep my head more even, and it might make a tiny difference. Probably just because I'm concentrating on looking further around the corner. But then I find myself tilting my head even more on corners where the car is just not coming around. As if tilting my helmet over will alter the weight distribution and help it corner better.

Be curious what the more experienced track rats would say.

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by ggggbmw

It was interesting watching the viewpoint of the video with a helmet mounted camera, and how much you tilt your head going through corners. I find myself doing that too, and always wonder if it's a bad habit or not. I do try to keep my head more even, and it might make a tiny difference. Probably just because I'm concentrating on looking further around the corner. But then I find myself tilting my head even more on corners where the car is just not coming around. As if tilting my helmet over will alter the weight distribution and help it corner better.

Be curious what the more experienced track rats would say.

Harnesses fix that. A race chair helps even more. They make you faster, too, with less effort. And altogether safer, as well.

[PeanuKeeyes]

The camera is a bit deceiving. I have it mounted on the lower half of my helmet so it’s tilted to the right to begin with. I’m mostly happy to see that I’m turning my head towards the turn ahead of time but you’re absolutely right to mention this! I am going to get a front helmet mount next and I’ll be playing around with different angles. Stay tuned.. like and subscribe lolol

[PeanuKeeyes]

One track day with these PFC 11 pads. They were ok, but for a pad advertised as having good initial bite, I was a little disappointed. They were also unforgivably loud. I knew to expect some noise, but this is beyond anything I’m hearing out on the track or squeaking around the paddock. Could they be glazed?

[msendit]

Originally Posted by PeanuKeeyes

One track day with these PFC 11 pads. They were ok, but for a pad advertised as having good initial bite, I was a little disappointed. They were also unforgivably loud. I knew to expect some noise, but this is beyond anything I’m hearing out on the track or squeaking around the paddock. Could they be glazed?

Doubt this is glazing. No direct experience with the PFC11, but they look like they like their heat [1], just look at that friction coefficient climbing all the way ... (Pics look fine too, just regular pads)

I'd guess the opposite actually -- not enough heat in them. The giveaway is the noise -- race pads squeal their worst when cold -- they get abrasive cold and scrub the transfer layer on the rotor (which is what gives them their braking torque). So... press the brake pedal harder?

I'm not joking actually -- it's pretty typical to not use all your available braking, even for drivers with much more experience. A simple exercise with modern cars is to just pick a session and a big braking zone and stomp on the pedal until you get deep into the ABS zone. Next lap, stomp a little less. Lather and repeat until you get just under the ABS engagement point. If you're recording data, you can look for micro-lockups of the front inner wheel [2].

Much much less likely, but you could have a setup issue -- too aggressive pads for the tires you're running, so the brakes never get up to working temp. I only mention this because I've noticed the Hankook RS4s have a lot less braking grip than their lateral grip would suggest. But if that was the case -- you would've been locking up all over the place, with lots of smoke. And ABS. Much more likely, simply not braking hard enough to get up to temp.

[1] https://pfc.parts/motorsports/pad-co...nt-comparison/
[2] https://www.2addicts.com/forums/show...70&postcount=7

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by PeanuKeeyes

One track day with these PFC 11 pads. They were ok, but for a pad advertised as having good initial bite, I was a little disappointed. Could they be glazed?

It doesn't look to me like they're glazed. I'm assuming their bright areas are due to the lighting in the room or a flash. Glazed pads are generally very shiny across most or all of a pad's surface.

Originally Posted by msendit

Doubt this is glazing. No direct experience with the PFC11, but they look like they like their heat [1], just look at that friction coefficient climbing all the way ... (Pics look fine too, just regular pads)

I'd guess the opposite actually -- not enough heat in them. The giveaway is the noise -- race pads squeal their worst when cold -- they get abrasive cold and scrub the transfer layer on the rotor (which is what gives them their braking torque). So... press the brake pedal harder?

I'm not joking actually -- it's pretty typical to not use all your available braking, even for drivers with much more experience. A simple exercise with modern cars is to just pick a session and a big braking zone and stomp on the pedal until you get deep into the ABS zone. Next lap, stomp a little less. Lather and repeat until you get just under the ABS engagement point. If you're recording data, you can look for micro-lockups of the front inner wheel [2].

Much much less likely, but you could have a setup issue -- too aggressive pads for the tires you're running, so the brakes never get up to working temp. I only mention this because I've noticed the Hankook RS4s have a lot less braking grip than their lateral grip would suggest. But if that was the case -- you would've been locking up all over the place, with lots of smoke. And ABS. Much more likely, simply not braking hard enough to get up to temp.

I haven't run PFC 11s, but I suspect they're a lot of pad for RS-4s. Braking normally, OP could easily have been well into the ABS in most of the braking zones.

Although a ~2:30 lap isn't fast at the Glen, a car with power will still be going pretty fast into the braking zones. The Glen is rightly known as a high-speed, heavy-braking track. It's hard to imagine not getting enough heat into pads on that track. Too little tire won't let you really use the brakes, though.

Below are some data I collected from a much faster lap in a much different car at Watkins Glen. They show that a capable driver spends ~1/8 of a lap on the brakes, with most of that distance devoted to brake-steering the car down to the apexes.

The graphic following shows an example of the brake-steering profile for T1. A few of the other turns are quite similar; a driver skilled at trail-braking is greatly rewarded at that track. It helps having tires with not too many heat cycles on them. I learned early to change tires out when they were slowing me down or preventing me from advancing my skills.

I was taught a different routine for determining a car's maximum braking capability:

1) Find a place where the car can be safely run up to 70 MPH in 3rd gear. Preferably, this is on smooth pavement.
2) Put a cone out and use it as the point at which to begin braking
3) Run the car up to 70 MPH and upon reaching the start cone press the brake pedal as hard as possible; i.e., max ABS
4) Mark the car's stopping point with another cone
5) Run the car again up to 70 MPH and brake at the starting cone using what you estimate is "3/4 ABS" (e.g., go up to max ABS and immediately release the appropriate amount of pedal pressure); then, mark that stopping point
6) Do it again at 1/2 ABS, then again at 1/4 ABS, then again at just before ABS; mark the stopping points as you find necessary
7) When done you'll know how use of the brake pedal in your car, with your braking components and your fresh tires, creates maximum stopping power.

In the car I put through this exercise, it was 3/4 ABS that stopped the car in the shortest distance (IIRC, it was ~5' shorter than max ABS). I never bothered with my M240i. At Mid-Ohio with 255 R888Rs and Hawk DTC-70s and with the track's single heavy-braking zone, I made it a point to stay out of the ABS. As hot as the brakes were already getting, I didn't want to work them any harder.

[PeanuKeeyes]

Actually, it is very likely I didn’t get into the brakes hard enough due to an issue early on in the day. Brake bleeder valves were spitting fluid at all 4 corners.. not an easy thing to admit, but after tightening, I still felt a lack of confidence in them despite being tight and having good pedal feel. I pushed much harder first few sessions compared to the ~ 2:30 lap video I ended up with, but then the valve issue occurred end of second session and I took it easier for the rest of the day.

Tomorrow I’m off to Palmer. I’m using my Michelin AS3+ street tires and still debating on putting the track pads on or leaving my akebono street pads. I’ll probably just swap the pads to start getting used to doing that at the paddock. It’s easy enough. And I’ll double check those valves while I’m at it.

On another note, I got a track alignment today and the maximum front camber the shop was able to achieve was -0.4 which in insane. Thing grips well with RS4’s but it will likely be a push monster on the street tires tomorrow. They zeroed out the toe in front. Hoping this will be enough to save some tire life, but not likely too many days left with the RS4’s, so I’m saving them for the next big weekend.

I’m doing NJMP later this month (full weekend) so that will definitely be a true test of the pads/tire combo and may be the end of this set of tires. My plan is to simply order the RS4’s again and go with the KW clubsport install at the same time and hopefully get more life out of the second set.

[PeanuKeeyes]

Originally Posted by msendit

A simple exercise with modern cars is to just pick a session and a big braking zone and stomp on the pedal until you get deep into the ABS zone. Next lap, stomp a little less. Lather and repeat until you get just under the ABS engagement point.

I did this on the main (isn't) straight at Palmer on Saturday. Car felt like it was skipping as my all-seasons couldn't keep up, well into the ABS zone at times -- these brakes feel awesome now.

I've been following Misha's channel from the Nurburgring, and earlier this season their rental M2 had a similar Brake squeal using Endless pads. The solution was to sand the rotors and spray water onto the surface of the pad material and then rub the pads together and then wipe the faces of residue. It solved it 100% for them. So I gave that a shot, skipping the rotor sanding part since I'm swapping pads frequently now. This worked though! both cold and hot, the brakes were well mannered.

The all seasons are in rough shape after just a few sessions but it was a good learning experience to feel the difference in behavior vs the RS4's. The hotter these things got, the more drift-happy and understeery the car became.

I drove the car 4 hours to Maine after the event in comfort mode/cruise control on and was reminded how incredible this thing rides on long trips. It makes more sense for me to just swap in the M4 LCA’s for now to help with tire wear so I can continue to enjoy the cars multiple personalities a little longer before swapping to coilovers.

Edit: LCA upgrade is a no go with my wheel/tire setups. Rubbing issues galore from what I’ve now read up on with my offsets and tire widths. — Millway Camber plates maybe?