Originally Posted by Dinan_Engineering
This will be my last reply to this as it’s pretty obvious that no one is going to change their mind / or opinions on anything discussed. We will just have to agree to disagree.
Seriously, I do appreciate the debate and effort to explain your position, even if I don't necessarily agree with the premise.
The concept is being heard just fine, it’s the reasoning behind the concept that I have a problem with. The analogy seems pretty straightforward to me and not misleading at all. Again, it’s simply pointing out that the end result does not make the process getting there the same monetary value. The Kia and the BMW end up at the same power level but they are FAR different machines. I have also never stated that we are the 'best'. What has been stated is that we believe we put more resources and development behind our products then most and that contributes to a higher cost. Coupled with warranty, emissions testing, and other variables the cost is just naturally higher than the competition.
The only point I was trying to make is that whatever you read in the magazines, good or bad, should be taken with a grain of salt considering the testing process. That is all.
Listen, I know it's not ideal, but it is one way of proving why your product is worth charging a premium for it. However, if during it proves inferior performance-wise, then it is natural to assume it is not worth what you think it is worth. Is that not a fair assumption? Smart people don't usually pay up for barely any improvement.
Your whole premise of Dinan bashing stems around the pricing so to just sweep the argument under the rug is counter productive. I am pointing out the obvious when I refer to those that purchase based on price and those particular people not considering Dinan. If price is even a remotely important factor in a decision you will automatically exclude anything out of your budget, no matter what the potential benefits are. It is simply out of your price range or what what you are willing to put into a particular part. If a Dinan part is outside of said window the purchaser will immediately not consider the product, no matter if its an improved one. It is a much larger segment then the one that is strictly going off of price but a wide range of potential customers where price is a very real limiting factor on what is even considered.
Couldn't agree more about most price sensitive shoppers, however, don't assume all who don't see the value in the Dinan product are price sensitive. I'd speculate that many, if not most, just don't see the value of the premium price being charged. I'd love for you guys to show the value so you can earn more customers, including me!
Its the double standard that gets to me. This whole concept of Dinan needing to be held to a completely different set of rules simply astounds me. If the concern is validating claims and the only "valid" way to do so is by these major publications and their independent testing why is Dinan the only one held to this standard? It shouldn't matter the price of the system at all, all vendors should be held to these standards since validating claims of the vendors is the end all, be all.
You are crying double standard, but that is patently false as I feel all major league tuner's products should be independently tested. Those objective results will dictate the real marketplace winners. Before you cry foul again about your engineering prowess and long-term durability, yada yada yada, I'm advocating for consistent qualitative and quantitative testing. Believe me, I'm the first one to pay more for a better quality product, but I also want some verifiable results to go hand in hand with the aforementioned premium price.
Personally, I'd never buy a Cadillac ATS-V over an M3 even though they are statistically similar because I know the BMW is much better engineered for the long haul. That is not the same argument of why I should pay up for Dinan. In the world of expensive incremental gains, you actually have to provide some verifiable real life improvements, not just pretty Carbon Fiber cold air intakes.
So you did not base your decision based on independent testing from a major publication? However this is expected as a *MUST* for Dinan for some reason. You based your purchase directly using the same method I proposed to you earlier in the thread by seat time, the butt dyno (feel), and a visual inspection of the product. The double standard here is just mind blowing. When/if you do go to Gallery and test drive a car also be sure to get a visual inspection of the unit/harness to compare to what you have. I think it will be pretty obvious pretty quickly that there is more to the Dinan product then you may believe just by that quick visual comparison.
You are incorrectly assuming I chose the Turner for all the right reasons. What I mean by that is I took a trip to their HQ with my new M3, drove their project car and felt that the tune was better than my stock. Was it worth a premium to the other tunes, probably not, but I only had my car for a few days and made an impulse purchase. I don't regret my purchase in the least bit, but I am also open-minded enough to find out if an even better product exists providing further incremental improvement. If it's proven to exist, I'm definitely upgrading.
Unfortunately, you haven't convinced me and the supposed "Dinan bashers" that Dinan is any better than the competition, but maybe the magazine test results and a firsthand road test might help support that stance. Like me, most people are willing to take a gamble on potential improvement, but probably at top of market pricing without concrete proof, and that's why you guys should be held to a higher standard to prove your value over other competitors.
The 20 to 1 number was just used as illustration of the ratio of complaints we would see in regards to tips. The fact of the matter is in the years I have been here I can count on 1 hand the amount of complaints from people about our exhausts, and I personally don't recall any related to tips.
The reason may be that people have already passed over your exhaust product for a variety of other reasons: tip design, sound, price, etc, and therefore chosen to spend their money elsewhere...even on more expensive systems than yours. Objectively, that is something you need to resolve if you want to sell more exhaust product. If you don't care about finding even more customers, then keep on keeping on, and let Eisenmann, AWE, BMW MPE, Akrapovic, Remus, etc sell their products to your potential customers. It's really not a rocket science business concept. If you don't want to grow your business, don't change a thing. Stick to your original design and cede the rest of the market to others who are brave enough to innovate. Personally, I am a bleeding edge type of guy and am willing to pay extra for innovation, quality, and results...but results are probably my number one priority.
Sure, there are some people, as noted, that want the rolled, double walled, notched, etc tips but we have seen no indication from our customers that the demand is high enough to mass produce the parts. It has been discussed numerous times about adding in additional types of exhaust tips but every time the cost involved outweighs the potential. You have to keep in mind that each application almost universally has a different exhaust tip due to length, circumference, etc and need to be ordered in bulk (50 or so) to be cost effective. So by offering multiple options of tips you are basically committing to an exponential amount of sub assembly goods that are only good for a certain application. If they just sit on the shelf and don't sell or take a decade to sell through you are losing money on them whether that be through production or warehousing costs. You could be having the same conversation with Eisenmann, Akrapovic, or any other vendor and ask them why they aren't offering tips like Dinan's to capture Dinan's market share of exhausts and those people that like the thin walled tips. Chances are they would have the same response as I and they would say their clients have not requested it enough to warrant the expenditure to offer it.
Honestly, I don't think the Eisenmann and Akrapovics of the world are interested copying in your tip design. Their buyers represent the majority, yours represents the minority. They don't need to imitate you, you need to imitate them to find new buyers. They collectively have gained share, whereas you have likely lost share, even with a 30 year headstart. Ever hear about how a good offense is the best defense?
We are open to customer suggestions and take them / implement them all the time but the requests we get for exhausts are almost always related to being louder, or removing resonators, straight pipe middle sections, catless downpipes, etc. All of these things go directly against 2 of the main things all Dinan exhausts HAVE to be to be considered a Dinan exhaust in the development process. Emissions legal (just look at VW / K&N / etc recent woes and you can understand why), and drone free. These requests fall on deaf ears not because the market isn't there but because it goes against what makes a Dinan exhaust a Dinan exhaust. If we were to sound like a muscle car muffler with crazy drone I am sure we would sell a few and some would like it but it wouldn't be representative of a Dinan exhaust. It goes against the company mantra / principles for that particular product line. We have 30+ years of history behind us and our customers expect certain things based on history.
Again, you're thinking small. Don't be so complacent and just settle for mediocrity. Listen to your customers, and do a test run of a sport exhaust line. Keep your existing line and classify it as "Dinan Signature (Sound and Tip Style) Series". Oh, and please don't whine about the cost of carrying (a minimum lot size of only 50 pieces) in a different style tip for your top two or three car models. If Dinan is that financially constrained to not be able to swing that modest investment, I certainly wouldn't feel comfortable relying on your "warranty promise" being very well-capitalized. You guys are sounding penny-wise and pound foolish.
I think part of the disagreement on this particular argument on product design stems from reliance only on information/comments from the forums. The forum community is not the only ones buying these cars/mods and there is in fact a much larger audience out there that is not being represented by just relying on this particular segment.
Yep, your right, the Forum community are not the only buyers of mods, but you have to be ignorant to not understand that the proportion of passionate mod buyers within the Forum Community far outstrips the proportion of non-Forum community mod buyers.
Dinan continues to grow bigger than we ever have been so something is being done right somewhere along the lines.
|