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      12-21-2012, 01:46 AM   #120
Evan135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonjt View Post
You don't understand the characteristics of the aluminum and steel alloys that are available to the auto industry. Or, I should say, you don't understand why materials are chosen for specific purposes, and how those purposes influence the design process. And, you need to do a bit of research to understand exactly what stiffness and strength are, with respect to engineering materials. You're confusing them.



The idea that an aluminum part will always be strong and lighter than a steel part is incorrect. Available steels are stronger, stiffer and have higher ultimate and rupture strengths, better fatigue properties, etc. Making the jump from the material properties to a well designed part is tenuous, because design criteria, resources, goals, etc, play a huge part in why certain materials are chosen. However, suffice to say that one cannot just assume that aluminum parts are always going to be stiffer and lighter.


No. You are talking about STIFFNESS per unit weight, not strength. In material property terms, there are many different "types" of strength, the definition of which depend on how you are defining material failure. Wikipedia has a good article on this.


Again, "can" does not mean "always". As you acknowledged, it depends on the design. Usually, in this regard, one characteristic is optimized, while the other is not. It's very rare that a designer can replace a steel part with an identical aluminum one that is lighter and stiffer. Usually, when that happens, it's a consequence of a poor previous design and/or improvements in design and manufacturing technology. To use a more equal comparison, if you were to design optimized parts, one aluminum and one steel, for the same application, at the same time, to the best of your engineering ability, the steel part will be STIFFER and STRONGER but the aluminum one will be LIGHTER.


You're making some serious assumptions about the particulars of the design of the subframes, without knowing anything about them except that BMW is using aluminum. Worse yet, you're comparing subframes from two different generations of BMW cars! There are so many ways to make a subframe for one car lighter and stiffer than a subframe from another, when the two cars are of a different design! The newer car could have a physically smaller subframe, it could be redesigned to be more rigid in torsion, bending, compression, tension, or any other complex loading condition, etc. Saying that the subframe is lighter AND stronger just because it's aluminum is myopic, at best and just downright wrong, at worst.

BMW's marketing department, maybe, or an insider has leaked this information just to pique interest. No one is going to release a full design brief on the subframes, unfortunately. And, that would be needed to fully understand HOW BMW is making the subframes lighter and stiffer. Saying it's just because they switched to aluminum, when aluminum is no where near as stiff, as strong or as fatigue resistant as steel, is just wrong.
I wrote a long response to your rant and it did not upload so you will only get this. You have made several wild assumptions from my casual statement in "round terms". I wrote "don't flame me" to protect me from idiots like you.

I have done material design for loudspeakers for over 20 years on equipment far more expensive than any BMW. I have a CES International Design and Engineering award I can email you a picture of anytime you want to see it. Do you think I might know a thing or two about this subject?

Think about what I said and your reactive and illogical response. When I wrote it would be out of aluminum and stiffer was because I believe BMW knows plenty about subframe design and would never change materials without a through redesign of the parts and in doing so would make it stiffer to be in an M car. Duh! BMW might even know more than you. Heck the rumor I heard could be wrong and it is being made out of steel?

Having added $2500 + of M3 components to my 135 I know the differences between both M and non M subframes and the newer generation F series geometry etc. All I was suggesting is what I heard rumored about the weight savings to benefit everyone and you went off about your materials peeve to try and show off all you think you know. This is a form for enthusiast not an online class. Don't bother to respond to this as I am done with you an your illogical assumptions and rants. Relax dude, take your medication, and have a nice holiday!
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